Endurance Usage on Sonic Resonance
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-10-31 03:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I've always been under the impression that this is due to the fact that Defenders (and Corruptors, to a slightly less extent) do less damage for the same amount of endurance compared to Blasters. I'm probably half-daft for suggesting it, but I've always thought that they should have equally lower endurance costs for their lower damage.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
In my opinion, almost across the board, endurance costs are excessive. Defenders suffer more than most. My FF/Nrg Defender typically has to rest in the middle of any fight (eg. Defeat a minion, rest, defeat a minion, rest, defeat a minion, rest, defeat a minion, rest, wear the Lieutenant to around 20% health, rest, defea the leiutenant). It's ludicrous. I can't imagine what it must be like for Defenders without PFF.
It amounts to this: The devs have a strange notion of what's FUN if they think standing around unable to act because you have no endurance is fun. To me, it's just frustrating, and is among the main reasons I constantly consider leaving this game. |
It also makes sets that are even worse performance-wise, like AR, Radiation, and Dark, all the more painful to play. And yes, I have an AR/Sonic. Pity me.
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Yah, I've suggested the exact same thing (and usually been flamed for it, for some reason). It seems to me that effect should determine endurance use. The point is that endurance shouldn't be as big an issue as it is. I mean, I'd be willing to bet that the VAST majority of characters in the game have Stamina. That should tell you something.
In my opinion, Stamina should all but remove the need to concern yourself with endurance unless you're facing sappers of sime kind (clockwork, malta, etc.).
Anyway, we digress (a bit).
I don't have Repulsion Field on my Sonic/Sonic, but I do run Disruption, Dispersion, Assault and Tactics with no significant endurance issues. Rather than focusing on the endurance cost of the toggles, slot endred in your attacks. The attacks use far more endurance than do the toggles. Frankly, I find endurance usage on my Storm defender to be higher (with only one Leadership toggle) than on my Sonic.
I feel that endurance cost as a whole needs to be re-evaluated on all click powers and toggles. Some things just use way too much endurance. Or the base and maximum recovery caps needs to be increased.
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I would do two things.
1) Standardize endurance costs across all power sets. The amount would need to be determined, but it should be something that will allow all ATs to use the same endurance for the same effect (eg. use 20% endurance to defeat a "standard" spawn of 3-4 Minions/Lts.)
2) Increase base recovery rates to match the current Stamina levels. Allow Stamina to increase the recover rate further.
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Doesn't this effectively make everyone do the same amount of damage?
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
1) Standardize endurance costs across all power sets. The amount would need to be determined, but it should be something that will allow all ATs to use the same endurance for the same effect (eg. use 20% endurance to defeat a "standard" spawn of 3-4 Minions/Lts.
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Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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Same amount per endurance used, yes. For instance, if Defenders currently do half as much damage as a Blaster, that means they're using twice as much endurance. Worse, they have toggles that Blasters don't generally have. That reduces their overall ability to defend themselves.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Doesn't this effectively make everyone do the same amount of damage?
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For the sake of conversation, I'm using made up values.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Same amount per endurance used, yes. For instance, if Defenders currently do half as much damage as a Blaster, that means they're using twice as much endurance. Worse, they have toggles that Blasters don't generally have. That reduces their overall ability to defend themselves.
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Currently, a Blaster spends 1 END for 10 Damage. A Defender spends 1 END for 6 Damage.
Under your system, a Blaster would spend 1 END for 10 Damage and a Defender would spend 1 END for 10 Damage.
Am I understanding you correctly?
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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I think it would be .6 end for its 6 damage. under your 1 end for 10 dmg, it means that .1 end should be used for every point of damage, so that same ratio should be used for defenders, meaning that the 6 damage attack would cost .6 damage. That is of course, if blasters end/damage ratio is the one they go with and you have to consider defenders higher debuff values.
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
For the sake of conversation, I'm using made up values.
Currently, a Blaster spends 1 END for 10 Damage. A Defender spends 1 END for 6 Damage. Under your system, a Blaster would spend 1 END for 10 Damage and a Defender would spend 1 END for 10 Damage. Am I understanding you correctly? |
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Yeah, that is a general proposal that would seem to fall in line with keeping ATs separate. Tankers and defenders would still take longer to kill spawns than blasters and scrappers, but they would not also take (significantly) more endurance. It removes a double penalty (currently they spend more time to kill spawns and must spend more endurance to kill the same amount of enemies, taking longer would seem to be a main part of the design intent, taking more endurance seems to just be a side effect of how things were designed).
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Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
For the sake of conversation, I'm using made up values.
Currently, a Blaster spends 1 END for 10 Damage. A Defender spends 1 END for 6 Damage. Under your system, a Blaster would spend 1 END for 10 Damage and a Defender would spend 1 END for 10 Damage. Am I understanding you correctly? |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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OK, I think I understand now. Still having a bit of a mental hangup on it, but that's probably because I'm tired.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Ya, that's what I meant, the ratio of endurance to damage would be the same from AT to AT. My bad for not being clearer.
If that's the case, shouldn't there be equivalence in balancing endurance per defense as well? Controller/Corr/MM toggles (and powers) should cost less than Defender ones due to being less powerful. Right now MM toggle costs are higher than those for Defs and do less. Ooh, and Controller primaries would get a huge end discount over the Dominator primaries too right?
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Possibly. Scrapper and brute defense powers, corruptor and controller buff/debuff powers probably had no intent to cost more.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
If that's the case, shouldn't there be equivalence in balancing endurance per defense as well? Controller/Corr/MM toggles (and powers) should cost less than Defender ones due to being less powerful. Right now MM toggle costs are higher than those for Defs and do less. Ooh, and Controller primaries would get a huge end discount over the Dominator primaries too right?
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MM buffs/debuffs, OTOH, were purposely increased; the design intent seems to clearly indicate that they were meant to spend more for less.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I don't see how we can answer to intent on some and not on others. Granted, MMs are force multipliers while solo, so having their secondaries cost more makes sense. Similarly, perhaps the double penalties do make sense for other ATs too and are WAI?|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Possibly. Scrapper and brute defense powers, corruptor and controller buff/debuff powers probably had no intent to cost more.
MM buffs/debuffs, OTOH, were purposely increased; the design intent seems to clearly indicate that they were meant to spend more for less. |
Although, I am all for making the earlier, pre-stamina levels a lot less painful for all ATs (like the brawl change which was awesome!), I don't see how this is the way to do it.
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I think the lower defender (and to a much lesser extent Tanker/Corruptor) damage is more of a hindrance in the late 20s to late 30s (or early 40s sometimes) than in the lowest levels. While the end issues do start to creep up in the late teens, that happens to all characters. Once you get Stamina, even defenders smooth out nicely, IME, until the post level 25 mob HPs start to seriously outpace damage.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Although, I am all for making the earlier, pre-stamina levels a lot less painful for all ATs (like the brawl change which was awesome!), I don't see how this is the way to do it.
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As far as intent of the devs, we can view the context of the design as well as outright ask them.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I would agree. All powers, offensive and defensive (and other) should have standardized endurance. The only exception I would make would be the Power Pools. Where a power appears in both a pool and a pormary or secondary, I would have it cost that little bit more endurance.
For example, Air Superiority and Super Strength's Punch have almost identical attributes. Even so, Air Superiority should cost just a bit more endurance than Punch because it's a pool power.
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It's recharge for anyone but Controllers is probably excessive.
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Originally Posted by Brynstar
Lackluster tier 9???? Liquefy is an awesome power. it's like Earthquake on Steroids. It has awesome IO options. It is a huge debuff and a control power rolled into one (not to mention doing more damage than Repulsion bomb). It can also be cast from behind cover.
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It amounts to this: The devs have a strange notion of what's FUN if they think standing around unable to act because you have no endurance is fun. To me, it's just frustrating, and is among the main reasons I constantly consider leaving this game.
There may be sets where you can slot four and not have any endurance reduction built in, but I can't think of them.
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