Dark, cool your jets, your taking this way too personal.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Lol, I think what many of you aren't fully grasping here....is that the Stalkers ability to "debuff" his target would MASSIVELY increase his own "personal" damage output on that target, as well as anyone elses damage output on that target..
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Massively? How so? a -res debuff? The only way this debuff would 'massively' boost a Stalker's personal damage is by applying it before using your attacks. After you AS means the AS didn't get the boost in damage from the -res power. Tankers got similar treatment, remember? A Tanker's brawl reduces the enemy's resistance by 20%. Did this boost the Tanker's DPS by a large margin? no. Did it boost the team's damage by a large margin? No.
What if it was AoE? 20% is still very low. Tar Patch reduces res by 30%. Infact, most powers that reduce resistance reduce it by atleast 20-30%, and even they don't make or break a class. sorry, but my Dark corruptor isn't brought along -just- for Tar Patch alone
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
You want a small damage increase? Worthless in the whole of things. You want an indirect damage increase that will further hinder your target and help your team. It's a solid debuff..
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Small? Your putting words in my mouth. Don't assume things in your arguement, makes you look foolish. I gave no exact number, if anything you should have warned me that a global damage buff that is too high could overpower the Stalker and cause Overkill damage, which makes the damage buff moot.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Crippling would, in all good sense, be a serious damage increase against a single target. No one is going to be asking a Stalker to play "debuffer" with his one very situational single target debuff. You guys are really sorta turning a blind eye to the damage increase you will get from this type of a debuff. Wanna know what it would "sorta" feel like and just how much faster you'll eliminate your single targets with it? Simple. Grab a */Cold Corruptor, setup a mission for a +3/4 boss, enter it. Then ask him to use Sleet+Benumb on your +3/4 Boss target the very milisecond "after" you AS him, then continue attacking. Profit. See just how much faster you're able to take that boss down. In fact, if you have a mission available with an EB, try it there as well. Just ask your buddy to refresh Sleet+Benumb every 30 seconds if needed. .
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I once again point to the Tanker. He got an easy 20% res debuff and that didn't do much. Seems like your turning a blind eye to a debuff that didn't change much at all. Wasting time using Debuffs is something I doubt Stalkers want to do. I ask all the stalkers readint this thread to answer this question:
Why do you play a Stalker?
Most would answer: to use AS, high burst damage, etc. Not play a Quasi-Rad Defender who's first attack isn't an attack at all but a support ability. Not very stalkerish to me.
If Stalkers get a -res Debuff, can Defenders get a quick-recharging Pet to absorb Alpha so they can HEAlz0r easier?
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
In reality, your capability of dealing some serious single-target mayhem against a hard target will skyrocket, and this does not have to be achieved through a direct damage boost. One thing that this will have over a direct damage boost is, it makes you somewhat more appealing to a team running high con missions or AV/EB runs, since your single target capability is not only good, but helps increase their effectiveness as well. This sort of ability is what makes Buffers/Debuffers so appealing to a team. .
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Your assuming once again. Skyrocket? No. No it won't. If anything your numbers will still be subpar in comaprison to the Scrapper who is also benefitting from your debuff.
Sorry, but your debuff idea is buffing other damage classes beyond the Stalker. You really didn't think this through did you?
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Also, people claim that the debuff would be somewhat useless against 90% of what we fight in this game, and that a direct damage boost would be better. While I think that claim is a bit of a stretch, whether or not its true, what does it matter? If we are already taking down "soft" targets (medium level minions/Lts/low level bosses) with ease and within a couple of shots, then what is a "direct damage boost" going to do? You'll STILL be taking down those same mobs at the same rate. However, when you get to the high level EB or AV, the direct damage boost is going to offer ALOT less to you and the team than the indirect damage boost from a debuff. Furthermore, your debuff will affect and improve the entire team's damage pace and allow you to clear that target much faster..
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I'd say it's a stretch just assuming a debuff would solve all of the Stalker problems we see today. Your not solving the Stalker's damage problem, your taking a 90 degree turn and boosting everyone else's damage to compensate for Stalkers? Makes no sense.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
People also claim that we already have debuffer AT's to do the debuffing. While that's true, it also has its problems. It means that while in a mission you will have to wait for that debuffer to decide to cast his debuff on your target. You might have to plead with him to do it more often even. But what about that hard target that is staying just outside debuff range and your team hasn't noticed yet but are getting slaughtered by it? As a Stalker, THIS scenario is one of your major callings. In that case, you won't have the Debuffer to debuff your foe and it's all up to you to take him down quickly. Without debuffs on a hard target and being solo, it's not always a walk in the park or "quick" either. What if while your debuffer was pulling the boss mob he got 2-shotted and dies? It happens often enough on average pick-up teams. If that debuffer used toggle debuffs (such as Rad), that hard target he just pissed off if no longer debuffed at all. If you had Crippling attached to AS, this would not be a hard problem and you (and even your team, thanks to the debuff) could put down that target quickly and recovery from a situation that almost went south..
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We aren't claiming there are other Debuffing classes.. we're TELLING you there are other Debuffing classes. If your team is being slaughtered by a single enemy, then theres something else wrong with your team, not the Stalker. Horrible scenario that either A) never happens on an average team. Average teams get killed by silly mistakes like pulling too many mobs, ambushes, patrols, forgetting someone is afk etc. or B) only happens because the team is fighting lvl54 EB farms or something.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
The ability to "not" have to rely on a debuffer is what this would bring to a Stalker. This means that you can personally and professionally hand select the most threatening targets on the battlefield and quickly remove them without having to wait on a debuffers assistance. It also means that while teamed, you will be adding damage to your team against hard targets which means faster level clearing. This debuff would indeed be a damage debuff, just an indirect one..
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Stalker doesn't rely on a Debuffer to dish out damage. Debuffers boost EVERYONE'S capabilities against the targets, thus I could say that every damage archetype relies on debuffers to dish out damage. We're here to discuss the Stalker's capabilities in general. Give the Stalker a debuff and everyone benefits from it, thus you didn't help the Stalker, you worsened it by putting the Stalker's weaknesses under a microscope.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
I think that too many people "assume" that everyone plays on the most optimized team ever 100% of the time with the best players in the game. I'm sorry, but this is about as far as it gets from the truth. I don't know how many times I've been in pick-up groups where we were extremely light on solid debuffs or had none at all. In reality, most pickup groups will play out with "spotty" AT selection and even "spottyier" player skill level. Many times the main debuffers for the team even get themselves killed when trying to pull or debuff a hard target, and this happens not because their AT is bad or just bad luck, but because the player behind the controls isn't as skilled with the set as he could be. Because of these more "average" scenarios, I find Crippling to be vastly important to a Stalker's overall performance, especially when teamed. If your team happens to be debuffer heavy, then sure, Crippling would somewhat lose some of it's value, but honestly, oh-well. If you're on a debuffer heavy team, then direct damage buffs and debuffs are being thrown around like candy anyways and you're most likely steamrolling through the mission at fast pace. No one loses in that scenario, even though Crippling takes somewhat of a back seat to the massive area of effect debuffing being thrown about..
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Yeah, your assuing a lot too buddy. Stalker is NOT a debuffer. Get this idiotic idea out of your head. Your probably one of those people who say that Blasters should get +20% resistance to all damage types so they can tank better. People picked Stalker to deal damage, not to debuff.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
Imho, it even fits the concept of a Stalker. As I said before, you are striking your target from out of no-where. He is un-prepared for your attack and bewildered. In "real life" or just the RP sense of things, he would be so surprised that he would be stumbling about trying to recover from your attack, but not fully aware of where it came from. This would, in theme, decrease his defenses and ability to defend himself against you for a matter of time, thus making it easier for you to dispose of him, before he does have a chance to regain his senses (the time duration)..
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It doesn't fit the concept of the Stalker. It fits the concept of a Widow more closely. A Class who has poisonous darts and smoke bombs. Stalkers are assassins, not sabotuers, and if you play your Stalker like a sabotuer then your missing the point of AS, placate and critical strike entirely.
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Originally Posted by DarkMaster
The indirect damage buff associated with Crippling would be amazingly effective at increasing a Stalker's own damage output as well as making them more attractive to a team setting, and that one suggestion I still have to stand by. Maybe mixed with a few other tweaks, fine, but I think Crippling is necessary.
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Stalkers would be more attractive to team setting if they did their job with less down time: I.E. took out high priority targets faster, and without having to hide every 5 seconds, not play a game of pretend-to-be-a-support-archetype.
Sorry but refine your arguement. Your crossing a fine line trying to make an archetype with a specific purpose in mind tread on the toes of not 1, but FOUR other archetypes' jobs: debuff.
A single debuff causes a multitude of problems:
1. It's another ability that is forces upon Stalkers. Stalkers already have to take Hide, Assassin Strike, Placate and Build Up. And even if this ability was inheritant, it would be another power Stalkers are forced to use. So the new Stalker attack chain would be: Debuff -> Build Up -> AS -> Placate -> Debuff -> AS. Thats rediculously long and once again has nothing to do with critical strike.
2. This debuff would boost the power of other archetypes. So now you have a debuff that puts the Stalker's attacks in a nice, comfy position of damage! But now Scrappers use your debuff, thus are still doing more damage than you! oh, and Brutes! and Blasters! etc. Doesn't solve the problem.
3. Confuse the newbies. When newbies read the Stalker's tag line, they think of assassins and serial killers etc. When you play a Stalker, you want to go. hunt and kill skuls, not throw dirt in their face to buff your team. if you wanted to do that, you would play a Defender or Corruptor instead. Infact, why play a Stalker for the debuff when you could just play a Sonic/Rad Corruptor and get the same effect?
4. The debuff does not solve the Stalker's out-of-hide damage, which is where Stalkers are lacking (along with being interrupted while hiding). This debuff wouldn't help that scenario. If anything it would discourage Stalkers from ever attacking out of hide. Why attack out of hide when your debuff boosts everyone else's damage to a point where they can kill the enemies at an optimum pace anyway? Just throw out the debuff, AS the boss then let your allies clean up. Sounds about the same as Stalkers are doing now.. only with their team catching up to them faster..