Infatum

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Future choices sure. Changing existing content, NO, not for this reason. There are numerous other things that exist as existing content that should come waaaay ahead of this concern.

Just off the top of my head revamping the existing tfs, adding more villain sfs and revamping existing zones would rank as more important than whether some feel that AVs overshadow their character.

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You don't want existing content changed to make us more super, but you want the existing TFs revamped?

Honestly the existing TFs are one of the major complaints I have, why not revamp them *and* take into consideration making players feel super while doing that? I realize that your idea of revamping TFs doesn't include the exact same kinds of shinies mine does, but it sounds like we want similar things not opposing things. If they're going to redo something they might as well try to do it in a way that pleases as many people as possible rather than just you or just me, it doesn't sound like anything I'm talking about goes against what you want, it just isn't of the same priority to you which is of course fine.

In any case I'd just be happy to see a move in this direction, even if just for future content. If Tyrant and pals end up as well written flavorful EB fights with AVs where the story dictates, that would make it that much easier for me to ignore the older crappier content, and treat the current signature = AV setup as no longer canon. If they continue their current trend though, I personally think they're missing what is essentially a freebie in the battle to make us all feel super, and needlessly making the game less appealing.

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(I just really, really, REALLY hate the idea of someone getting a bad review there and then getting another bad review here. It would be like going to the doctor who tells you that you're suffering from severe halatosis and you ask for a second opinion, and he tells you that your ugly, too.)

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No... it'd be like the second doctor saying "Yep, you're suffering from severe halatosis, have a mint already!"

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Signature mobs should be AVs, if not AV+. EBs are too weak.

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Aside from maintaining the status quo, do you have a reason why you feel that way? People keep bringing up the challenge factor, but that isn't the point of this thread, the idea is to maintain the current level of challenge (through additional EBs or other factors), but change the conceptual presentation of signature characters so they are no longer this unattainable level of power, but rather fellow heroes and villains aided by others to keep them equally challenging (if not slightly more so).

No one has offered much in the way of reasons why the current status quo is fun compared to the offered alternative, only that it is indeed the status quo. On the flip side, there are people bothered by the current state of affairs. There are really only two things that have bothered me since release of CoH: 5% chance to suck and signature characters. Both have been a constant, albeit small, drain on my fun and have at times killed my interest in the game entirely.

I *like* challenge, hell I wish the game was more challenging than it is now, but it is the presentation of that challenge that is so important to me. Feeling super and heroic (or villainous) is not mutually exclusive with a challenging game, but things like the Freedom Phalanx and Recluse's goon squad of AVs currently kill that sense of being super and heroic for myself and others I know. If we're the minority that's fine, but even then I have to ask, if the current state of affairs *isn't* offering some tangible benefit to the majority over this alternative, isn't a minority worth at least considering when making future choices, if not changing existing content for that matter?

Nice idea, I like it.

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My DM/Invul is AFK right now in the middle of said spawn while I type this message.

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Now I want to get my MA/WP to 50 so I can try to get an AFK RWZ win by leaving Dragon's Tail on auto.

Crane kick for all the reasons mentioned.

In addition to splatterific finishes with that power involving the enemy plummeting to their doom, I also love when I manage to lodge them in things. It's especially amusing when a large foe like a warwolf ends up dangling by his head which is now firmly planted in the ceiling tiles

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Is that what you are talking about?

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Where to draw the line of EB vs AV conceptually is obviously not the simplest matter, but my feeling would be the following rules:

Flunkies
Anyone who is a flunky for someone else should be an EB (at best) in all but the most extreme circumstances (ie. Silver Surfer material).

Players
Could this character be mistaken for a player (taking into account background and appearance/powers), if so, they should be an EB. This blanket would cover the entire Freedom Phalanx and co. as well as Lord Recluse and pals. They're heroes and villains, we're heroes and villains.

Monstrous
Does this character *look* like it should take a team to fight? If so AV or Monster class is fine. Dr. Vaz in his flesh-mecha, the clockwork king and pretty much all the current monsters fall under this.

Story Excuse
Recluse has activated the web? AV. Aeon and his gizmo? AV. Romulus and his massive Nictus infusion? AV. Obviously this has to do with presentation, some will be more believable than others, but personally I'm just happy so long as they *try* to explain why we're fighting an AV instead of an EB.

That's it... yes there is wiggle room and yes it will vary based on the perspective of whose deciding, but again, I'd just be happy if they *tried* to go in this direction, even if I didn't agree with all their choices.

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The thing is, even if my character is more powerful mechanically than a Signature character, it means nothing because I will still never be of that status in canon (unless I win a contest or something). I may be able to beat down Statesman solo ingame, but that doesn't mean my face will be on the next in-store box (and that's a shame, too, as I am much better looking).

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Very true, but I'm not asking to be on a box, nor be a signature character. Rather I'd like to see the mechanical and conceptual portrayal of signature characters move away from "Hero's Heroes" and towards "Example Heroes". Amusingly enough this is actually how the CoH comic portrays the phalanx at times (although it falls into the same traps from time to time too), Statesman gets KOed by a CoT suicide mage of all things. Most Tankers and Scrappers have likely *never* had that happen.

In game though they're not so down to earth, we have to go seek their sidekicks out to level, do their bidding because they're too busy standing around, and when the big bad decides to drain all the worlds heroes of their powers, we're not on the list because we're not important enough (yes an odd complaint I know ).

Contrast this with Guild Wars where the "Example Heroes" end up eventually being NPC party members, and are not at all mechanically different than the players (Assuming I'm remembering correctly, as I haven't played GW in years).

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It's not that I feel that having "heroes' heroes" means anything to the Devs or the critters, it's just that it's an unavoidable result of having a canon (and a marketing department) in the first place.

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They can still be the cover guys, but show us they're "normal" heroes too when the cameras are gone and its business as usual. Mechanically this is obviously doable, in fact they already "sorta" do it with EB scale downs, but when the chips are down and a full team shows up they suddenly go into overdrive AV mode without any explanation, once again reminding us even naturals like Manticore aren't exactly "normal".

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That said, I'm sure there are players in this game that have indeed soloed Statesman, or Recluse without the towers, despite their AV status. I just see no reason to weaken them even more so that my toggle-less Tanker Daisy Dukes can solo them.

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My goal has never been easier AV fights, extra EBs in addition to the signature character can easily keep a fight difficult. A different sort of difficulty, but definitely difficult.

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Even if the badge you get for beating alt future Lord Recluse added you to some sort of list that made it so that all Arachnos critters took a knee when you clicked on them, that would still mean little if all 150,000 players could get there and it would be 'unfair' if everyone couldn't.

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Lord Recluse is the leader of Arachnos, even if we kick his tail, he's still the leader of Arachnos. That has *nothing* to do with his conceptual power vs ours and everything to do with his political power. I'm not asking for more of that, nor would I imagine are most people.

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When the DCUO and Marvel MMOs debut, will you feel the same if maxed out characters in those systems still aren't as powerful mechanically as the in-game Superman, Darkseid, Hulk, or Thanos?

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Those characters are one of the reasons I have no desire to play in those canons. Again I ask, what purpose do hero's heroes serve in an MMO? In comics I can see some purpose, but not in a comic book MMO, it is part of the genre that doesn't help the game, unless of course I am missing something, in which case I'd be happy to be enlightened.

I agree with JB's overall premise, both for conceptual and mechanical reasons.

The vast numerical superiority of AVs over any given level 50 brings with it the implication that these characters are indeed more powerful than the players. Even if soloed, their powers are still better and their HP vastly higher.

Conceptually this benefits no one except perhaps those who really want to be an ingame lackey (which is already provided for through the SK/LK system anyhow), and the developers who may or may not have personal attachment to said characters.

Conceptually, this hurts *some* of us. Obviously not all or we wouldn't be having this thread. I know within my circle of friends, the sentiment is that characters like Statesman and company directly detract from our fun simply by the fact we'll never be quite as good as them. That's not to say it ruins my fun and makes me want to take my toys and go home, but it does *detract* from my fun in a measurable way, like a mosquito buzzing in your ear that you can't seem to properly swat.

Are there conceptual benefits to these "Hero's Heroes" that I have missed? I'm fine being wrong, but the light I've seen this in for my years here has never been a pleasant one.



Mechanically, variety is always good. We have a lot of AV fights currently, and frankly they're not all that much different from each other. The formula is pretty much the same for most of them, and in the end it generally boils down to a team of heroes hacking away at a sack of HP for a few minutes. With us looking like the minions, and our opponent looking like the one holding out against the odds.

Contrary to a poster in the previous thread, we *don't* currently have many multi-EB mosh pits, and they are not the same as the standard minion mash. The ITF is proof of the latter, a pack of minotaurs doesn't disintegrate away in a few AoEs, and with different EBs come different challenges.

If people really love fighting AVs and want nothing but AV fights that is of course a valid opinion, but I know I personally would like more from both a conceptual and mechanical standpoint.

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Please give whoever fixed this a raise.

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Just experienced this last week actually

What makes it bizarre is that I had a character up to 30 with the exact same powersets/AT that I had lost interest in, and somehow the name + concept + costume of the new character took that failed attempt and turned it into something *awesome*.

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Players shouldn't be able nerf other players that use KB as their support for a team.

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Unfortunately they already can and do frequently. Many holds and immobilizes provide effective immunity to KBs to their targets. (Ice and Stone are the two that come immediately to mind).

I've frequently had issues with my Martial Arts scrappers when a controller throws down an AoE immobilize on the targets I'm fighting which provides me no mitigation, yet takes away all the mitigation dragon's tail provides. Irks me to no end, and doesn't really make sense anyhow since the immunity runs out before the power usually does, so you still end up kicking people encased in stone across the room. Which is hardly immersion breaking, and was a terrible reason for them to add this "feature" to some controls in the first place.

Question for the numbers gurus, what are the differences in scalars between AVs and EBs?

I've been tempted to make some EB based challenges for my scrapper in the MA, but I'm curious how they compare offensively to AVs beyond my own unqualified observations.

EDIT: Sure edit in a build and make me look silly (not a difficult feat to begin with)

I'd lean towards hurdle if you're positive you want to keep swift. Swapping swift out with hurdle instead, would give you better travel capability while exemping though, and would free up that final slot for assault or full fledged SJ if you felt you were going too slow.

Unsweetened iced tea.

I could have sworn a dev chimed in on this a long long time ago and said it was ok, but I might be remembering incorrectly (This was back before Castle was the powers guy).

I always figured it was payback for the ways mobs take advantage of latency themselves.

They "drunk-sprint" at 50 mph after being stunned, we use them as a cone target and hit their entire spawn. Fair is fair.

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Plus, to me, just changing colors is kind of meh... I want to change animations too.

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If they implemented that I wouldn't even bother *trying* CO/DC.

Martial Arts with punches of my choosing sped up or slowed down to match activation times... *drools*

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Don't take away knockback because some players can't use it right and others can't mentally adjust to seeing it used. And don't say "But you can add a knockback enhancement to get it back!" unless you're going to spot me the slot to put it into. Why should my powers have (effectively) 5 usable slots instead of 6 to regain the capability they already had?

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This.

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or good people come on and, beyond your control, fix what you did. You don't win. You can't win.

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BLUE STEEL!!! *shakes fist*

Tunnel snakes rule.

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The problem is that while it could be any of those things, up to and including steam-catalyzed cold fusion (explaining the "atom rays"), what we're TOLD is that it's good old-fashioned steam engine technology.

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Where is this reference to "old-fashioned steam engine tech"? All I've seen thus far is "based on steam tech", which is a pretty big difference.

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As I mentioned before, it's not even like D.A.T.A. is studying the stuff to figure out how it works. Everyone just seems to buy into the idea that Nemesis is just really wacky inventive about ways to use steam power.

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I don't remember D.A.T.A. studying malta sapper technology either (You'd think this would be fairly important to most Heroes). They're a bunch of do nothing slackers, just like M.A.G.I., go figure.

That's not to say I don't see your point, but I think what you're seeing is more of a broader problem with the lore than something specifically related to Nemesis.

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I think I found it. Here.

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Thanks for the find

Stumbled on this while poking around. Apparently Nemesis isn't the only one who still sees potential in steam.

Awesome idea.

I'm curious what arc I've missed that specifically says all or even most Nemesis tech is steam powered. The description on most of his soldiers includes:

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Although Nemesis likes to dress his soldiers in 19th century style, their weaponary is decidedly modern.

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Sounds like a standard comic book super genius with a 19th century flair. Not someone who has found ways to make all things magical with steam.

The only thing explicitly stated to use steam power as far as I know are the Jaegers (which may very well be kept around because they're cheap and expendable). Most of the rest of his technology is described as far more advanced. The steam stacks on the warhulks *may* be functional, but the ones on the Fake Nemesi seem almost undoubtedly whimsical. After all, he got his start in steam tech and its sort of his signature thing, it's not a stretch for him to have a small non-functional steam stack tacked on there. Especially when he's so flamboyant with the get ups he throws on his solidiers.

Of course, I'm probably just missing some arc where some idiotic contact exclaims with wide eyed fervor, "Nemesis is teh steamiest!"