Idea for tanker taunt to suppress Knockbacks
By
Atheism,
Posted on: 2009-06-12 11:53 in Suggestions and Ideas
Um... no. If I've managed to strip aggro from a tanker (which I can do with enough damage,) and I have a squishy with a KB power - I want to KB them back towards the tank.
[ QUOTE ]
We all know that trying to tank in a team with a bunch of KnockBack sucks, but a reduction to other AT's KB powers isn't fair to them soooo.
Add a "KB to KD/KU" conversion aspect to Taunt/Guantlet so that anything under the influence of a tanker's taunt effect isn't sent flying away.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like a plan.
Since other people are not about to adjust their gameplay so as not to adversely affect others, I'm ok with this. I would in fact be much more likely to pick up Taunt on my Tanker, were something like this to be implemented.
Doesn't sound like a plan.
I use my KB powers as intended and do perfectly fine on teams. SFs, TFs, trials, missions, whatever, all completed with my en/en blaster, /storm MM, WS, or other toons that have KB powers.
Players shouldn't be able nerf other players that use KB as their support for a team.
[ QUOTE ]
Players shouldn't be able nerf other players that use KB as their support for a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately they already can and do frequently. Many holds and immobilizes provide effective immunity to KBs to their targets. (Ice and Stone are the two that come immediately to mind).
I've frequently had issues with my Martial Arts scrappers when a controller throws down an AoE immobilize on the targets I'm fighting which provides me no mitigation, yet takes away all the mitigation dragon's tail provides. Irks me to no end, and doesn't really make sense anyhow since the immunity runs out before the power usually does, so you still end up kicking people encased in stone across the room. Which is hardly immersion breaking, and was a terrible reason for them to add this "feature" to some controls in the first place.
Infatum on Virtueverse
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't sound like a plan.
I use my KB powers as intended and do perfectly fine on teams. SFs, TFs, trials, missions, whatever, all completed with my en/en blaster, /storm MM, WS, or other toons that have KB powers.
Players shouldn't be able nerf other players that use KB as their support for a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet oddly enough, alot do...they're called controllers. WIth Immobilizes that stop knockup/down/back.
Even more strange, are there are Ice Trollers out there who lay down an ice slick, then immobilize the enemies, stopping the ice slick's knock down.
That said. I'm not for the OP suggestion.
I mean really..."Hey you suck!" stops people from falling down? Nooo...it makes no sense whatsover.
Yes. I know the game doesn't haver to...we're playing super heroes...but really, I think you get my point.
/unsigned
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Yes, I know about holds and other powers, why are you telling me? Those powers are working as intended and doing their job for support just as well as KB does. That is my point.
Besides not making any kind of sense from a physics viewpoint (how does your growling at these guys stop the wind from blowing them away?), I don't think we need to stop KB. When used properly KB can be a very useful mitigation and clumping tool (try KBing some baddies into a corner sometime). The only problem is people that don't know how to use it.
My suggestion is to (instead of removing the effect or suppressing it or whatever else) teach the players that don't know how to use it how to use it properly. Explain calmly. Don't call them newbs or stupid. Don't get all bent out of shape. Be polite and to the point and explain how the misuse of KB affects you and the team and give them pointers on how to use it more effectively.
You'd be surprised how fast many people can learn when you talk to them like mature intelligent individuals.
[ QUOTE ]
Besides not making any kind of sense from a physics viewpoint (how does your growling at these guys stop the wind from blowing them away?), I don't think we need to stop KB. When used properly KB can be a very useful mitigation and clumping tool
[/ QUOTE ]
I'll agree that properly used knockback can be a great benefit to a team. The problem is that it's not properly used most of the time. Based solely on my experiences in the game. The ratio is about like this.
30% detrimental use: Players spreading out previously herded mobs, knocking things into another mob and then attacking again to aggro the next group, throwing things outside the tank's taunt aura then whining when it kills them, blowing mobs off of the ice slick/oil slick/earthquake, etc.
65% adequate use: Not really a detriment to the team, but not really helpful either, except maybe to the character using the knockback.
5% helpful use: These are the few players that really know what they're doing with KB. They blast mobs into walls and corners to group them up and mitigate damage. The knock stray enemies into the pile, or away from squishies in trouble, etc.
I'm not necessarily saying that the OPs suggestion is a good one, but I can certainly see where he's coming from. There's more people that cause problems for a team with there KB than there are that actively help the team.
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't sound like a plan.
I use my KB powers as intended and do perfectly fine on teams.
Players shouldn't be able nerf other players that use KB as their support for a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately I don't see you on teams; I see idiots who dont care who, what or when they KB.
Look at it like this: your KB is "nerfing" what my melee people can do on a team. See, that cuts both ways.
Honestly, if they rounded up every /storm in both sides of the game and conducted an auto da fe' under the Atlas statue, it would be cool with me. That is seriously how annoying this set is; there are other bad examples of KB Gone Horribly Wrong, but /storm is their king. UGH.
Taunt having -KB? Plan. Definitely.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt having -KB? Plan. Definitely.
[/ QUOTE ]
My melee toons - scrapper, tank, brute, stalker, widow (all 50's) - don't have problems when others use KB. Mobs still get defeated and we complete what we are doing.
What about an ITF with my /storm MM? Hear of those roof tops by any chance? Completed, no issues...
Or, like others have mentioned, the OP can get a player with a hold or something else like will reduce the KB. My 50 grav/ff conroller (any KB, cage, repel, wormhole there?) will hold down the KB if needed.
Unless it is shown to be broken in that teams can't complete the content with KB present, there isn't any reason to change. KB is a support power.
Plan definitely not.
Maybe make the -kb part of the aura powers? That way, only things that are already close to the tanker don't get knocked away.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Doesn't sound like a plan.
I use my KB powers as intended and do perfectly fine on teams.
Players shouldn't be able nerf other players that use KB as their support for a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Look at it like this: your KB is "nerfing" what my melee people can do on a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Not my melee toons.
Really, even when I'm on a Tank trying to herd a group, someone knocking a few of them off of me isn't that crucial. I can move. I don't have to stand in the same spot. And I don't have as much trouble toggling on Sprint to catch a runner either. And while I am doing all of this I can chat with the KB user and explain the better ways of using it.
Really, if everyone did the same there would be no problem. Or is that too difficult?
Taunt having -KB? Plan = Nonsensical and unnecessary.
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe make the -kb part of the aura powers? That way, only things that are already close to the tanker don't get knocked away.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even that way it doesn't make sense. How does a fiery aura stop someone from getting knocked back by an explosion? How does Willpower do that?
Controller powers stopping Knockback makes sense. Having a bubble of space around a tanker where KB doesn't affect anything will never make sense (except in the case of Mud Pots for a Stone tank, that would make sense).
Yes, this is a game and it is based on comic books, but everything in comic books is written with a little thing called "comic book physics" in mind. In that yes, a man can shoot fire from his hands, but fire will continue to act like fire.
[ QUOTE ]
We all know that trying to tank in a team with a bunch of KnockBack sucks, but a reduction to other AT's KB powers isn't fair to them soooo.
Add a "KB to KD/KU" conversion aspect to Taunt/Guantlet so that anything under the influence of a tanker's taunt effect isn't sent flying away.
[/ QUOTE ]
This would render half of the Hand Clap power useless. On a power that's already considered fairly lame and of limited use, this would be a problem in my opinion.
Yes, I realize it would still have the Disorient, and yes I realize that Hand Clap's KnockBack is what hurts its usefulness, but the fact remains that the power was balanced with both KB and Disorient in mind, and removing half of that equation without also rebalancing the power isn't something that should be done.
You package this up with replacing Hand Clap's KnockBack with massive -res debuffs and giving something similar as a replacement to all other melee powers that have KnockBack now, then maybe we'll talk.
.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Maybe make the -kb part of the aura powers? That way, only things that are already close to the tanker don't get knocked away.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even that way it doesn't make sense. How does a fiery aura stop someone from getting knocked back by an explosion?
[/ QUOTE ]
The vacuum effect from the oxygen being burnt off?
[ QUOTE ]
How does Willpower do that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Psionically willing people to stay closer to you?
See, its easy if you try!
Not that I particuarly want this, I was just suggesting an alteration to the original suggestion that might be more palatable to the playstyles of more people.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
The vacuum effect from the oxygen being burnt off?
[/ QUOTE ]
Then how does it not suck the baddies toward him in the first place? Yeah, because Fiery Auras don't cause a vacuum.
[ QUOTE ]
Psionically willing people to stay closer to you?
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't will away physics and Willpower is not psionic based unless you yourself define it that way.
No alteration is necessary. It's a bad idea all the way around. People need to stop being lazy and impersonal and actively teach other players how to play properly instead of expecting everything to be easy enough for Forest Gump to use.
[ QUOTE ]
You can't will away physics
[/ QUOTE ]
Sure you can! Maybe you just don't try hard enough.
EDIT:
Oh and if you really wanted a justification that works for everything that taunts:
We know willpower can make the person who has it more resistant to knockback , just because they are so determined that they can ignore it. If you taunt someone, you are making them determined to attack you, thus enabling them to resist knockback whilst they try to persue their goal.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
[ QUOTE ]
What about an ITF with my /storm MM? Hear of those roof tops by any chance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I can picture that now: Cimerorans flying off the edges of the roofs, pets taking suicide-dives going after them, chaos and annoyance for everyone else reigning supreme.
[ QUOTE ]
My 50 grav/ff conroller (any KB, cage, repel, wormhole there?) will hold down the KB if needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You dual-box to mitigate your KB issues? Nice. We need more people to do this.
/endsarcasm
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I know about holds and other powers, why are you telling me? Those powers are working as intended and doing their job for support just as well as KB does. That is my point.
[/ QUOTE ]
The post I replied to said, other players shouldn't beable to nerf other players form of control (KB).
I was just saying, they already do.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What about an ITF with my /storm MM? Hear of those roof tops by any chance?
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh I can picture that now: Cimerorans flying off the edges of the roofs, pets taking suicide-dives going after them, chaos and annoyance for everyone else reigning supreme.
[ QUOTE ]
My 50 grav/ff conroller (any KB, cage, repel, wormhole there?) will hold down the KB if needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
You dual-box to mitigate your KB issues? Nice. We need more people to do this.
/endsarcasm
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope, don't dual. Nope, no chaos or annoyance on ITFs.
The OP will go no where. Definitely plan on that. No sarcasm needed.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I know about holds and other powers, why are you telling me? Those powers are working as intended and doing their job for support just as well as KB does. That is my point.
[/ QUOTE ]
The post I replied to said, other players shouldn't beable to nerf other players form of control (KB).
I was just saying, they already do.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I know about other powers. If a group is held, why would I bother try and knock them back? So nothing to nerf. 
KB can be used when they aren't held or controlled in some other fashion.
[ QUOTE ]
Add a "KB to KD/KU" conversion aspect to Taunt/Guantlet so that anything under the influence of a tanker's taunt effect isn't sent flying away.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm curious as the whether mez effect conversion is even possible within the confines of the game engine. AFAIK, there isn't any existing conversion functionality that exists between multiple discrete mez types (KB and KU) nor is there a way to default the magnitude of a mez effect to a specific value (KB to KD). Actually doing something like this would probably involve a significant and largely unneeded amount of code screwery, especially since I'm pretty sure most people are perfectly happy with how Taunt works already. It's already gotten a significant increase to its functionality thanks to the 75% -range debuff.
[ QUOTE ]
The OP will go no where. Definitely plan on that. No sarcasm needed.
[/ QUOTE ]
Last time I checked it wasn't you who made these decisions. Hence my taking your pronouncement with several grains of salt.
[ QUOTE ]
Taunt having -KB? Plan. Definitely.
[/ QUOTE ]
My response:
[ QUOTE ]
Last time I checked it wasn't you who made these decisions. Hence my taking your pronouncement with several grains of salt.
[/ QUOTE ]
We all know that trying to tank in a team with a bunch of KnockBack sucks, but a reduction to other AT's KB powers isn't fair to them soooo.
Add a "KB to KD/KU" conversion aspect to Taunt/Guantlet so that anything under the influence of a tanker's taunt effect isn't sent flying away.
Dragon Wraith lvl 50 DM/Reg/DM Scrapper
Mud Lark lvl 50 SA/SS/EM Tanker
Galaxy Archon Athena lvl 50 Tri-Form PB
Miss Victory lvl 50 MA/inv/BM Scrapper
US Thunder lvl 50 Elec/Elec/Elec Blaster