KB's burden on melee toons
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2009-06-07 13:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Unlike the Bruiser, player Tankers are capable of knowing when HC is a bad idea, and when it's a good one; they're capable of standing on one side of the group and clapping them all in one direction.
That said, if HC were changed to KD, I'd be in trouble, because then I'd want it in my namesake's build.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I think that's a great suggesion, because even if Tankers know when HC is a bad idea (on teams), it still seems to be a "bad idea" to use it in most situations solo as well, because as the OP suggested, all it does is cause the melee toon to have to chase everyone down as soon as he uses it.
"The One"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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having two pbaoe knockdowns would make superstrength far too powerful especially in the hands of a brute.
... because having two AE knockdowns in stone melee has destroyed the game.
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I think that's a great suggesion, because even if Tankers know when HC is a bad idea (on teams), it still seems to be a "bad idea" to use it in most situations solo as well, because as the OP suggested, all it does is cause the melee toon to have to chase everyone down as soon as he uses it.
"The One"
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Not necessarily - need an extra second or two before Healing Flames (for instance) comes up? Handclap - drives everyone away, and they'll be coming right back to you.
That said, lowering the mag so it's KD means it can be brought back up with a KB enhancement if someone wants knock*back* instead.
(Edit for a little more clarity.)
tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
tremor takes 3.4 seconds adjusted for arcanatime to fire
the brute thread about this was lost in the recent purge
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HC is a bad idea (on teams).......solo as well.........all it does is cause the melee toon to have to chase everyone down as soon as he uses it.
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The fact that you think this is true indicates that you do not know how to use the power properly.
The OPs use of the term 'burden' in reference to melee and KB is melodramatic and kinda hilarious.
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... because having two AE knockdowns in stone melee has destroyed the game.
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Should I point out that Stone Melee also has Build Up and not Rage?
I'm just saying that may be a deciding factor in balancing Stone Melee and Super Strength, I could be wrong though.
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Knockback's disadvantages are waaay overstated by many players. For example, I was once Crane-Kicking one foe in a group, following him, and killing him in one or two more hits, but you should have seen the complaints that I was hurting the team's AoEs. It was only ONE guy and I was killing him just as fast as the AoEs finished, but you'd have thought I was nerfing regen by killing baby kittens if you'd seen the chat.If I hadn't used crane Kick, my one target would have stayed in the spawn and been AoE'd to death at...pretty much exactly the same speed were were killing them anyway.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
Ok, like I said, it would be changed to knockdown, but through enhancements it can be changed to knockback. That way its not cramping anyones style.
Knockback is only ever a burden if an enemy flies into the next mob and causes double aggro
just have the tanker Taunt them back otherwise
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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Knockback is only ever a burden if an enemy flies into the next mob and causes double aggro
just have the tanker Taunt them back otherwise
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Aggro does not work that way. The only time a mob knocked into another mob will draw additional aggro is if someone chases said mob down and pulls aggro by being near the second spawn. I'm not sure if CoH is "unique" in this regard (mobs that run or are knocked to other spawns doesn't cause said spawn to aggro), but most newer players seem to be surprised when a runner doesn't aggro the 3 spawns he just ran through trying to get away from you.
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@Laxx
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I'd settle for a "Reduced KB" IO that could be slotted in powers like this.
For Handclap, its obviously an improvement, so pay for it with a slot.
Other powers where it would be too overpowered (eg Bonfire) could be flagged as not accepting the IO.
Personally, I love knockback. Sonic/Energy Defender + Peacebringer duo for the win!!! 
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Knockback's disadvantages are waaay overstated by many players. For example, I was once Crane-Kicking one foe in a group, following him, and killing him in one or two more hits, but you should have seen the complaints that I was hurting the team's AoEs. It was only ONE guy and I was killing him just as fast as the AoEs finished, but you'd have thought I was nerfing regen by killing baby kittens if you'd seen the chat.If I hadn't used crane Kick, my one target would have stayed in the spawn and been AoE'd to death at...pretty much exactly the same speed were were killing them anyway.
[/ QUOTE ] Those were idiot players. You should have pulled a bunch of extra mobs and caused a teamwipe. They deserved it so much that it wouldn't be considered griefing.
Knockback works better than knockdown.
- When foes "ragdoll" from knockback it takes them a lot longer to get back up. That's more mitigation.
- Knockdown can't move a foe into a placed debuff or control like Tar Patch, Freezing Rain, Volcanic Gasses, etc.
- Area knockback can group scattered foes more closely! A spread-out group can be flung into a wall by Gale, Shockwave, etc., and they'll be tightly piled against the wall for AoEs. It can be faster than waiting for them to shoot teir ranged attack, change weapons, and run over to the Tanker to cluster up.
- Knockdown can't throw someone off a ledge. This can sometimes be handy if you are getting overwhelmed, but it's always hilarious.
Don't take away knockback because some players can't use it right and others can't mentally adjust to seeing it used. And don't say "But you can add a knockback enhancement to get it back!" unless you're going to spot me the slot to put it into. Why should my powers have (effectively) 5 usable slots instead of 6 to regain the capability they already had?
Teach the players who don't know how to use it. Kick the players who can't learn. Enjoy the tangible advantages properly used knockback give you and your team.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
The only time KB is a problem for my melee characters is this:
When I am fighting a mob and you are fighting a different mob, do NOT switch targets just to send mine flying before your target is defeated.
A lot of people seem to do that in the belief that they are "saving" me. My scrapper does not need saving thank you, and if I get in that far over my head, knocking my target a block away isn't going to help.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
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I definitely respeced out of it on my stone/elec brute.
And for a while things were cold,
They were scared down in their holes
The forest that once was green
Was colored black by those killing machines
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tremor takes 3 seconds to cast, and most of us dont bother to take the power at all
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I would love to see you make a poll for that. Seriously, I'd find it fascinating, regardless of how it's presented.
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I've never taken a poll, but I don't know anyone who builds for performance over concept that keeps it.
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Other players should never get upset if you're only KBing one foe. That's really not causing a problem, especially if you're the one chasing it down.
Now, I can see their point with AoE KB, and that causes my PB a fair amount of grief. I always have to wait until foes are 'locked down' before using Solar Flare or Luminous Detonation, or I have to go the edge of a mob (and usually getting about half as many in my blast radius as normal)
Soloing, I usually love KB. It's great defense (mobs that are on their butts some distance away are not attacking you). I say usually because there's some instance where it's a little annoying. For example, if I'm 'wall clearing' in Cimerrora, I have to be careful not to knock too many of the Romans off the edge - they take forever to climb back up.
On teams though, KB causes more grief and annoyance than it give benefits...and that's sad, because there's not much more Mighty than sending foes flying. There ought to be someway to make such a cool graphic more welcome on teams. I dunno, maybe if they were knocked into a wall, there was some damage bonus... *shrug* anything really, besides a Tanker hollering, "Less Scattering, dammit!* haha
Knockback hurts my DM/SD's feelings, especially when it's right before I hit soul drain.
So much +damage and damage dealt, gone away with the wind (and enemies)
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Tremor and Fault are both KD unless you slot them for KB. I never considered not taking either. The ability to chain KD foes in a circle around you is awesome. Lets your damage aura tickle them, time for a self-heal to recharge, self buff/ debuff auras like AAO, Invincibility, RttC keep working, AND allows your team to use AOEs at will.
As for HC, I've never taken it because it does KB. If it got changed to KD but needed slotting to get KB, I still would not take it. BUT Lightning Clap (AOE stun KB from Electric melee) I have taken on my Fire Armor brute.
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Knockback is only ever a burden if an enemy flies into the next mob and causes double aggro
just have the tanker Taunt them back otherwise
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Aggro does not work that way. The only time a mob knocked into another mob will draw additional aggro is if someone chases said mob down and pulls aggro by being near the second spawn.
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Or if the enemy that's knocked back is an anchor for a debuff toggle. I know I just love looking up to see a horde of +4 bosses charging at me because the Energy blaster hurled my Enervating Field anchor into a mob on the floor below.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Knockback is a very useful tool in many situations. It can be used to situate mobs, mitigate damage, and as an oh [censored]! power to help with a retreat. However, on a melee toon you want your targets in melee range, and knocking a whole mob all around you is terribly counterproductive.
Thats why I feel powers like handclap should be given the same treatment the MM thug bruiser's handclap received. Change the kb component to kd, allowing it to be a kb power if slotted with kb enhancements.
It seemed to me the reason for the change on the bruiser was because it was like having a two year old on your team. He would use it, it would be counterproductive by knocking mobs out of debuffs. It was not a good power for an AI toon.
That was a good idea, and it would be a great change to bring to all like powers. It seems to me the players resolution to getting around this less desirable effect is to skip/ not use the power at all, condemning it as a widely skipped and ignored power.