Enantiodromos
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Quote:I have a guide to being a healer (and asking about being a healer-- link in sig). Plant has, you know, spirit tree, which in combination with regen aura and healing aura is about as AoE-hit-point-optimizing as you can get.Originally Posted by DocDominion
Hey there, I have a level 30 or so Gravity/Empathy healer aptly modeled after Jesus XD and of course, I want him to be a healer. (No, he can't cure your blindness.)
A question I had was how effective a Grav/Emp build could even possibly be for team healing, as I want to make him more of an AoE healer as opposed to a single target healer. Also, what are some good builds for this kind of thing, if any.
You could always construe some of Empathy's other effects (e.g., clear mind, fortitude, adrenaline boost) as various sorts of blessings. Gravity isn't the strongest set or even, probably, the best suited to your concept. But as per the guide, you won't want to play this in order to be "strong." -
Quote:I get that people don't like that Controllers can do everything Defeders do, and are only negligably worse at it than Defenders. And I agree that should be addressed. But the tradeoff is control for damage. That is a sucky tradeoff for the controller. You can control things all day if you're desperate to surivive, but it's damage brings home the bacon... and (well, the game might be shifting a little away from this with new difficulty sliders combined with PuGs but...) few teams are desperate for a survival edge.Originally Posted by Silverado
I agree with the first part of the post, but you seem to contradict yourself on the list.
Based on the principles you stated, I'd put Controllers and Defenders on the first 2 spots (Controller first, as they have both good AoE damage and buff/debuff). Then I'd put Tanker and Blasters on the 3th and 4th spot (which would be up to debate, since Tankers fill both the role of aggro control/management and are also able to put out some respectable AoE damage, but not as much as Blasters)
So I can see quibbling about whether controllers are 2nd or 3rd. But ahead of Defenders? No. Plant ahead of Psi, Sonic, or Energy Blast? Maybe. Generalized across ATs? Well, I've been wrong before. Twice, in fact. But I play a lot of controllers and defenders, and reasonably strong defenders outperform reasonably strong controllers. -
Quote:I'll go bust you out some better status, but I think you're wrong about this. I've never run the numbers, but averaged across all sets or even comparing best to best, I suspect defender AoE blasting outperforms contained controller AoE damage.Originally Posted by StrykerX
Controllers can do everything Defenders can do nearly as well as a Defender. Not as well, but fairly close. However, Controllers can also do a lot more for a team with their primary than a Defender can with their secondary... AoE controls and moderate (assuming not Fire) damage are better than just moderate damage.
And, much as I might wish it otherwise, AoE Damge is practically the name of the game, whereas control is, at best, over-rated. I play more controllers than defenders, but defenders > controllers. -
Speaking of ATs in a generalized way, where: Useful = effective in normative play (4+-man door teams):
De/buff sets and AoE Damage-intensive sets are tied for first place. Control and single-target damage are tied for third place, and self-defense sets come in dead last. The blueside initial ATs from most useful to least are:
1. Defenders
2. Blasters
3. Controllers
4. Scrappers
5. Tankers
There are plenty of reasons to play Scrappers and Tankers, including concept and roleplay, and a love of being "in the action" and at the center of attention. But normative performance isn't one. If one is looking for particularly ineffective combinations of specific sets, melee types are good place to start. I recommend:
Martial Arts or War Mace[1] with Invulnerability or Ice Armor on a Tanker or Scrapper.
Mind, Gravity, Earth, or Ice with Trick Arrow, Forcefield, or Sonic on a Controller.
[1] Nor have I been impressed with claws or broadsword, though they're a little better.
The polar opposites of this, of course, are AoE-damage-centric blasts (Fire, Ice, Archery, Radiation), and the best of the aggressive de/buffs-- Storm, Radiation, and Kinetics. But also avoid the best AoE damaging Control sets, Fire and Plant. -
Quote:You know what I find bizarre? That people accuse me of giving THIS kind of advice all the time and I never come within a million miles of it. Iknowist is expressing a view common among people who have first-glance ideas about what controllers are supposed to be but who've never really played them.Originally Posted by je_saist
I'm about to be very rude here.
The best thing to do is to go find another game to play.
You just described what many of us refer to as the controller from hell.
There're a lot of builds that fare well up close. Kinetics and Radiation both give you good reasons to do so, and in terms of team defense, so do Sonic and Forcefield (with their dispersion bubbles). But Kinetics is the strongest of the in-your-face secondaries, so you're right on, there.
There are two primaries that give you good reason to get up in somebody's face. Fire and Ice, with hotfeet and Arctic Air, respectively, plus their AOE Immobs. Fire will give you more damage from the pool itself, Ice will give you a bunch of defense. (The confusion at max duration, plus the -recharge, plus the afraid + moveslow on those the immob misses, are a LOT of mitigation, and up perpetually once you can afford the end.)
Fire/Kin is a classic power build. Ice/Kin is heaps of fun, and nicely balanced especially for big team play. If you plan to solo (which, the game being what it is, tends to be pretty disappointing), I'd go with fire. If you plan to team at least intermittently, I'd flip a coin or go with concept. -
Quote:Rather depends on the situation. I play both and routinely spam the immobs-- EVEN around Ice and Earth controllers most of the time-- because damage is infinitely more important than mitigation IF you're not routinely teamwiping.Originally Posted by Local_Man
If either of [fire and plant] are on the team, I just figure I might as well not bother with Ice Slick.
Ordinarily a competent Fire particularly will quit spamming Fire Cages and running in to do damage if there's too much death. Too much death in ordinary doors with a Plant on hand means you're either fighting Nemesis, or doing something wrong.
It's an irritating thing to face up to, especially if you've sunk time and effort into Earth and Ice 'trollers, or if you just liked the idea of controlling itself being very valuable. But AOE damage is King, and Fire and Plant bring a noteworthy amout of it. -
I've been roaring through 8-person size missions with my Plant/Kin today. He's 24, but it comes down to just two powers: Seeds of Confusion (safety), and Roots (damage).
Of couse, Stamina makes the whole thing a lot less apt to annihilate your end bar. And assault, tactics, siphon power, and siphon speed are nice additions. Carrion Creepers and especially Fulcrum shift will be stunning, a little later.
But really, I've been thinking lately: this whole new difficulty adjust for how many allies you want the mission to spawn at is going to bring the abject brokenness and nerfworthiness of Plant Control out into the open.
Plant is the answer. Until it's nerfed.
Of course, you could do it with Fire, too. The point, though, is that you need really good spawn-size-scaling powers. Plant, or maybe Fire, with Rad, Kin, or Storm. -
I feel like Local Man is making me redundant lately, but yeah, I agree with him-- Ice and Earth, Earth being a little better.
OTOH, I will say: I think most people underestimate how good a thoroughly slotted Arctic Air is, especially with a secondary that gives you an excuse to be close-- Kin, to a lesser extent rad, bubbles, and therm.
Having AA perpetually ready, and Ice Slick perpetually ready for a generous amount of mitigation wherever you place it, that's a lot of super-available mitigation, even in groups that are being rolled through fast. -
I think I agree with what Local Man said, speaking as somebody who's played a whole lot of Mind and very little Illusion. I'd go so far as to say: Illusion is roughly 3rd best for normative play performance, and Mind is probably tied for worst (6th/7th).
As the first respondant said, they're both highly odd sets-- if you want to look at a comparison of the 7 control sets, see my "guide to choosing a controller" thing in my sig, but the two taken together, with a ST confuse, a cone terrify, and a ST damage tool, and lacking immobs of any kind, constitute a "template" for controllers that's distinct from the other 5. -
Mind/Kin to 40 for performance in normative play:
I. Skeleton
1 Transfusion
2 Dominate
6 Confuse
8 Hasten
10 Siphon Speed
12 Assault (or Maneuvers)
14 Tactics
16 Hurdle (or Swift)
18 Health
20 Speed Boost (or Stamina)
22 Stamina (or Speed Boost)
32 Mass Confusion
35 Transferrence
38 Fulcrum Shift
II. Early:
Power L1: Pick Levitate or Mesmerize
Power L4: Pick (Levitate OR Mesmerize) or Siphon Power
III. 16, 20, 22 choices:
At 16 pick Hurdle if you intend to take Superspeed later, Swift if you intend to take Inertial Reduction.
At 20 and 22, pick Speedboost first if you're teaming, Stamina if you're soloing, more.
IV. Powers L24, 26, 28, and 30:
Choose any 4: (Superspeed OR Inertial Reduction), Increase Density, Total Domination, Terrify, Vengeance, (Levitate OR Mesmerize OR Siphon Power), Mass Hypnosis, Telekinesis.
... in roughly that order of preference.
V. Slotting:- Practically everything here requires accuracy (hence tactics) aside from things like fitness and leadership.
- Mind/Kin is so clicky and self-recharge-buffing that most of the fast-click stuff you won't want to peg for recharge.
- Your very long recharge stuff, though, e.g., total dom, mass confusion, hasten, and fulcrum shift, should be taken to 95% recharge.
- Slotting for damage is likewise, a little less significant considering kin's strong damage self-buffing.
- Also, max endmod in stamina and
- max hold dur in total dom if you take it.
- If you take TK, make sure to max it for end redux.
- If you take terrify, frankenslot it to the hilt-- you'll want good accuracy, as well as recharge, end redux, and damage.
- Everything else is icing.
It's a tight build, power choice wise, I think. You can see my order of preference for the remaining powers in step IV-- having done it I really don't recommend playing a toon to 50 (or 40) without some sort of supermove, though inertial redux does fine. Soloing is frankly pointless, and ID is awfully good, so I really can't see doing without (there are some nice end/recharge in the resistance sets that fit in ID, BTW, but not often cheaply). Some people feel like they'll choke on robots without levitate, but damage specialization is why you team. Total Dom with Mass Confuse on a fully siphon-speeded, hastened up mind/kin, is a lot of AoE control to throw around, and I can't see missing out on it. -
I guess I don't know for sure what's best for dual boxing, not having done it, but I would think you'd want to minimize how much detailey power application you're doing. IOW, I'm not sure Kin and Storm would be great for that purpose, unless the way I imagine you doing it is all wrong.
Multiple Fire/Rads is great because it's just, you know run in and let things die around you, practically. -
My first move was to add some green into the ice powers of my Ice/Rad, "Fre0n." Because freon is bluish-green?
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Quote:About half the time I'm looking for a proc at any level, people are still inexplicably paying a LOT more for the identical effect at higher levels. Bizarro market.Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
That's not exactly 100% correct.
Many IOs are more expensive the lower level they are. This is especially true of global uniques and procs. These IOs give identical preformance no matter what level they are and many players will pay a premium to be able to slot this type enhancement at a lower level. -
Quote:Yeah, that may be true or at least close to true on a plant/kin, I hadn't thought of that (my plant/kin's 19). I'm not sure I'd neglect it, but it probably would be come third priority after end and acc, at 38+.Originally Posted by Frosticus
But I wouldn't really slot much of anything for damage on a kin unless you have issues handling large spawns so you don't have full fulcrums. But if you have issues like that then playing a plant/kin probably is not the right thing.
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Well, FWIW, I think if there was a build I'd play with FF, it'd be Fire or Plant. With late FF powers and what Fire does bring-- which after all still includes a very potent AoE stun and Bonfire, you might be able to develop some pretty interesting tactics.
Unless you're on a big team doing dangerous stuff, too, I can see FF having a chance to sorta underwhelm.
Anyway, GL. -
Quote:Well-- my routine slotting it is all the confuse/end I can get at Lev+3. They're mostly cheap, all you need, and better per slot than anything else available. I mean, as this exercise suggests, not much point in set confuse duration, and... well I suppose you could shoot for the recharge and even the def in Malaise, but that'd be an awful lot of wasted acc.Originally Posted by Ignatz
Hmm....I should really bring out my Ice/Kinetic out for a spin again(after I've transferred to a different server). AA was a terrific power, and I was always tinkering with the best way to slot it(especially increasing the confuse duration as it tended to draw lots of agro). It's too bad I took my year long break when she was one of my most active characters...and too bad she's on a server I no longer play on.
If you have any other suggestions on slotting AA, I'm more than willing to listen.
At 20, six slots will get you to ~89% end and confuse, and by 30, 4x will get you to ~87% end and confuse, so eventually those two other slots for AA can be you know, Damage procs, or whatever. At 50, without going into Coercive Persuasion, you can get ~75% end and confuse with just three slots, and maybe add a third slot of something-else, if you really wanted (e.g., two damage procs and contagious confusion?)... except, knowing what I know about AA confuse % chance, I'd really rather have more confuse dur than that. -
Quote:Pardon me. I guess what I meant to say was: if you have something to say on topic, I'd be much more interested to hear it, than anybody is, your remarks re: my character and intelligence.Originally Posted by Folonius
No speculation required.
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Team Build/Roots, since it's a key power for doing AOE damage, and something you'll obviously use if you're farming or otherwise teaming[1], I think you'll want to frankenslot it. That 3.75% recharge time-- not worth it[2]. You have:
Rchg 47%
EndRdx 53%
Immob 74%
Acc 95%
I would shoot for something more like:
Rchg 20-50%
EndRdx 95%
Immob 0%
Acc 50-75%%
Damage: 95%
This still overshoots accuracy, but pegs the rest nicely @50:
Enfeebled Op acc/end
Trap of the Hunter acc/end
Detonation dam/rech
Detonation dam/end
Detonation dam/acc/end
Detonation acc/dam
[1] I don't ultimately know what you plan on with this build, and it's even possible I'm mistaken in thinking AoE damage is key in farming. I thought that's how y'all did it.
[2] Of course, I broadly don't consider set bonuses worthwhile except with a few things like global recharge. So I've never really understood the drive to grab tons of set bonuses. Sorry I can't help with that. -
Quote:Well, I have my reasons (it's base 3.725s, not 2.25s, but duration enhancers in AA effectively increase the % chance, which though it starts @30%, readily goes up to ~70% with +95% dur enhance) .Originally Posted by Reptlbrain
I think you may be the first person in the history of the game to shoot for stacking confuse bonuses. I believe it's just regular additive; i.e., you've added a DO's-worth of bonus to 2.25 seconds of confuse.
But it looks like it's not really doable. Or well, what amouts to +2% chance is not worth my while. -
Yeah, it's worthwhile to run full invis like that, particularly since it lasts even if you just toggle it up and back down, like D_C said.
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Quote:Speculating that I'm a troll or dimwitted is rude, but also laughable.Originally Posted by Folonius
So your either trolling on the use of words, or your really that dimwitted to realize that lost XP being discussed is referring to lost XP opportunity. There has been no claim that the lost xp from using confuse is greater than the lost xp from not using confuse. Quite the opposite actually.
I think your having issues following your own conversation. Reread the thread.
But no, it's not use of words. It's a matter of understanding how confusions affect XP. Saying confusions cause XP loss makes it perfectly clear the speaker doesn't get what's going on. (And that claim, your revisionism notwithstanding, was the gist of this discussion.)
There's a distinction between lost XP and lost opportunity, and if you reread the thread, you'll realize I'm the person who brought it up to begin with, because understanding the distinction is necessary to understanding that, in no way, shape, or form, does confusion cause anything like XP loss.
NOR is there any problem with confuses causing lost opportunity-- because that opportunity is not a finite resource.
I find the pretense that you and Pan understood the situation in the first place amusing, though. -
Quote:Does it need correction? See my guide to the word necessary; I don't really know if you're insisting on your mistakes because you're confused, or just unwilling to acknowledge a simple mistake.Originally Posted by Pans_Folley
I'm enjoying your frivilous attempt to correct something that is not in need of correction.
But if you continue with patent nonsense like saying there's some sense in which confusions cause "XP loss," expect to be corrected. Because that's completely backwards. They don't do anything remotely like that. -
Quote:I wondered about that as confuse resist isn't listed there, but there were several other resists that were right.Originally Posted by _Uun_
I'm guessing you're pulling your info from redtomax. He appears to have some of these miscoded. Only Malaise, Perplex and Brilliant Leadership buff confuse duration (not sure why a pet set is included - likely a bug). The others buff confuse resistance. If I'm adding right, you total out at 5% total bonus.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Catego...nfuse_Duration
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Catego...use_Resistance
Hmph. Well. That seems pointless. Thanks for the pointer tho'. -
So, I'm contemplating AA again. And I'm curious, for the first time ever, to try and systematically set-bonus something out in a build. I don't normally do this.
So considering this Ice/Rad I have languishing. If I went:
3x Malaise, 3xPerplex in AA (4%)
3x Entropic Chaos in Chillblain, (2.75%)
3xSovereign Right, 3x Brilliant Leadership in Jack, (3.75%)
3x Kismet in Maneuvers (1.65%)
3x Harmonized Healing in Radiant Aura (1.65%)
3x Essence of Curare in Block of Ice, Choking cloud, EMP (4.95%)
That would leave me with.... 18.75% total bonus on confuse duration?
Is the secret that this is a separate +% to the base, rather than additive with ordinary enhancements?
I don't get it. Not that I don't get that global recharge, damage, or accuracy aren't a lot more important than confusion duration, but. Is this the kind of bonus people are shooting for, building in set bonuses?
Am I thinking about this all wrong? (Aside from going rather out of my way to get as much confuse duration bonus as I reasonably can?) -
Quote:Until they make /dark available to controllers, there's really no difference except that Sonic has the cage available six levels earlier. I've played a grav/sonic to 38. I played him to 22 with the pair of cages (intang). And respecced him AND paid to change his name, in the hopes of salvaging the character into something interesting to play.Originally Posted by Medic_brietz
i want to make a concept character who can cage people.
Obviously, gravity will be my primary, but i am stuck between sonic, which I have never played with, and FF which I have. I plan on using the dual cage/intange powers on STF's and ITF's and anywhere else applicable. I know this guy wont be able to farm and he wont have any heals, but i need to know the difference between the 3 said cages. what are good uses for them? what about the pro's/con's of grav/ff versus grav/sonic. Also, I plan on taking flight and fitness...and maybe hasten. for an epic, probably mind or primal.
anything anyone can tell me would be welcome.
It would be unfair for me to hold back that: ugh. This build is painfully boring and ineffective. The same will be true for grav/FF of course.
Still, I would prefer sonic to FF, mainly because of (the end hog that is) sonic disruption. It's at least an aggressive bit. Weak controls + defensive secondary is sadsauce.
... Although. I suppose that if you last this long, it might be amusing to repulsion bomb + wormhole clusters of bosses. >_<