Blue_Centurion

I would offer a half hearted challenge to that. Dark Armor. Horrid as a brute, not even a question. There is no synergy between brute play style and this armor set. Quite different as a tank, i know. Still, I doubt this is a set to turn into a "pure" tank. Might be okay as a concept toon. (Just do not use it redside)

Perfect, a new and sexy powerset that not only does tons of knockback, it also works at a greater range than any other brute set. Does anyone not see the possibilty (probability?) that a lot of newbs will be unherding everything on the map, so Corr/Blasters/even good old fashioned strength brutes PBAoEs hit maybe 2 targets max? Thanks Devs, another days work to mess with people and give them nothing. How about spending some time fixing invulnerabilitys unusable tier 9 or the stupid lag problem in the ITF???

A throw away tier 9 somebody said. Uh huh. You have to wait until level 38 for a power t open up and when it does it says FU like it means it. My first 2 50s were Str/Invul Brutes. (diff servers). I now have a main that is SS/Will Brute, and he is so much easier to run than the Invul that I purpled him out. He now fights lie a wet cat. Invul is very good, but seriously, a throwaway last power? The devs need to put down the crack pipe.

This may be a bit off topic, but all this talk about Invul brings me to my one real sore spot with the set. Unstoppable bites. Sure, it is a serious boost for 3 minutes. 3 minutes is nothing, nothing, in a serious combat these days. Try using it in the valley of the ITF. Try using it against an AV. One of your mates will be scrapping you up off the floor in about 3 min 15 secs, if you are fortunate. To give you my personal example of what I mean: My first 2 50s are SS/Invul Brutes, diff servers. I know this is about tanks, but stay with me. The issues here are parallel. I loved that set, and tried to work around that crash. Got to be a real artist at flying out of a horde, away from an AV, with 10 secs remaining, to find a safe place to crash. In truth, prob had about a 50% success rate, plus my team was without me for the next minute even if I survived.

So, Willpower (it took me almost a year to roll one up and truly run it after it came out) So now my main is a SS/Will brute. I regularly pop the tier nine on WP (even in the ITF valley, even vs AVs) and almost never have even a minor problem. Now, by regulary, I mean there is a ton of global rech on this guy, and he pops it whenever he feels like it, about every 3 minutes it is up (this is an estimate, I have not timed it). Now, by a minor problem I mean (since the globa rech is so high) he usually has 2 (sometimes 3) rage going, whch means mult rage drops, which can coincide with the tier 9 drop. And that big problem = (oh no!) my end bar is at less than 50%. er, eat a sm or med blue, move on.

So, as much as I love Invul, the tier nine (for me) makes it unplayable. The tier 9 on Invul is useful for very specific problems, once in a while, and has to be played with incredible tactical foresight (and some luck) to know the fight will be over when it drops. Then you are slowed down, slowing the team down until you recover. For that you not only give up a power, that is the ultimate power in that set. And it truly truly bites. So, I just never want to make one up, My main tank is also a will/SS, just not as tricked out as the brute, so no global rech. Can still use the tier 9, and does not have a problem with the crash.

I guess this was a general whine, but also specific on target about Invul nerf. (Although a diff nerf than previously mentioned) It is more like a you have ignored this set for so long that other sets make it look like a Model T vs a Moserati. Does anyone have an idea if they plan to fix this? Or is Invul the redheaded stepchild of the Armors?

Inv/Dark tank and Dark/Invul brute are both stupid strong. Other posters seem to agree with this assessment. I would be interested in hearing more about frankenslotting siphon that Mauk mentioned.

They left too much flexibility in the system. Probably thought they were being nice, letting players take a build in whatever direction it could go. Then it hit them in the face like a wet flounder: The vast majority are powergamers. Forget taking an idea in a new direction, someone put extra rockets on my rockets. Oh Yeah, and can I get 2 foot of body armor in all locations, please?

I got into the game, lets see 33 Month vet badge, carry the 1, errr, around June 07. So this was after all of those New World Order shifts. To be honest I never got into I/Os until about a year ago, except for the random Fly+Stealth I used on about every flyer I have. Now I have a tricked out Brute with all the sets I can cram on him. Given how he operates, I try to imagine changing him to a non ED build, and I think he would be much worse off. Now, granted, the rest of my stable of alts would love it, because they are not tricked out nearly as much. (There are only so many purple sets LOTG, and Procs one individual can afford!)

Still and all I think ED has probably been a good thing. Even my farmer toons run better when I start spreading the enhancement love around more powers. Although, of course, for one or two buildouts you could really abuse it. Probably why tankers were one of the most vocal. A tanker (in my opinion) is already a pretty min/max build. Lopsided, although not quite as lopsided as blasters. Min/max builds love it when you can take it to an even greater extreme. It is just the nature of the beast.

The question was about a "pure tank". You are right, I have a 50 Will/SS tank, and it is fun. My main is a SS/Will Brute. Fights like a wet cat.

I think why I posted about end issues is my first 50 was a SS/Invul brute. Always struggled with end. Course I prob built him wrong, and tanks are different than brutes.

Still and all, take a look at Invul Dark. I have a 40 Invul/Dark tank, and a 44 Dark/Invul Brute. Both are very serious, strong, easy to run.

Taunt for a tank is very important.

If someone really wants to make (for whatver personal reasons) a tank that does not taunt, that is also very important.

Since taunt partly defines this AT, I think this is a very important conversation for this board.

I've seen a couple posts here that some melee types have solo'd an AV. Now are we talking the glorified boss that spawns when you solo a mission that has an AV/Hero in it? Or we talking a full strength AV? My Brute (SS/Will) can handle the glorified boss hero/AV, as I am sure many melee types can. (Although that hero female with the sword and the gold armor is particularly irritating to me, Valkyrie - thought I had blotted her name out, need more whiskey.) But if you are talking about taking any AV/Hero on set to full strength while solo, may the dieties that be shine on you brother.

Fine, make a Fire/Stone and do the same. good day mate.

Jeminiks, wow, a drain on my team? lol Uh, my will/str tank does spam the PbAoE footstomp, I meant he avoids KO blow and Haymaker, preferring to taunt with taunt and small attacks. As far as being a drain on the team, I am just gonna roflmao. I understand that some tanks want to run tappers, or scrankers or whatever. As long as they are upfront that is what they are doing I am cool with it. I no longer assume a Tanker means a Tanker. I also understand that serious tankers, those stoners and Invul monsters that can tank just about anything non-psi, that use taunt, use taunt aura, and taunt some more are what most people think of when they think traditional tank. However, just because I take a lighter armor tank, and use a ton of end juice to run all 3 leadership toggles for the team's benefit, you think you can call me a drain on the team? wow. I know the way I tank with this guy is a bit non-traditional, but seriously? Drain on the team? Is it that you are a tanker purist? (Meaning explicity Stoner, sometimes Invul.) Or, perhaps, as I have learned from going through this post sometimes happens, do you believe that in fact a tanker who is not trying so very hard trying to max that medium damage is just not trying hard enough? lol. ROFLMAO To anyone who thinks that way, I will say this: I believe (my belief, me, based on my experiences) that my guy running those three leadership toggles does a ton more for the teams damage than if I took Haymaker and KO Blow and spammed those whenever I could. By buffing my teams Defense, +Acc, and +Dam, specifically. Then taunting the major damage dealers onto myself so my team can use those advantages to their fullest. And instead of spending all my time trying to find where I can land my only serious attack (which is still only so-so), I scroll the view way back and keep a hawk's eye on what is trying to ambush my team. My opinion. You play your way, and I'll play mine. But seriously, drain on the team. Your hubris is really impressive Jeminiks. Rock on brother.

My willpower/str tank is at the opposite end of the spectrum.
(you do not have to build/play like me.) He runs all will toggles, the 2 fighting toggles,combat jumping, and (drum roll), all 3 leadership toggles. yep, he taunts a lot, and spams low damage (and low end cost) attacks. I play him as a mastermind whose pets (fellow teammates) do 95% of the damage while he sits in the hot seat controlling the flow.

If I got skeletons I would be Necroing like it was 1399! Why the heck can we not customize minions? And why the heck is there no simple skeleton anything anywhere in this game??? should probably put this in the Devs line, but I started it here and they never seem to listen to me. Plus i never win costume contests. Wah.

If you have mids you should put in some of the above desings and check them out. They may be what you are looking for. And yeah, glad you actually have stuff, that helps1

Yeah, I made the statement Brutes deal more damage than scrappers. Is that always correct? NO No No. There, I said it. In fact, Super Strength, my preferred method of destruction, is middle of the packish, below some scrappers. It happens to work very well in my build, due to 4 sets of purps and LOTG, with huge global Rech I can always double stack rage, and with any help/buffs triple stack it.

You made some good points. You alluded to tanks working well with brutes. I agree. The whole point of this discussion is taunt. I will disagree with you on one substantive point. A brute will steal agro from a non-taunting tank. I am not gonna data mine the tables of present detailed explanations here. I have been playing brutes alongside tanks for years. Brutes steal agro from non taunting tanks, in my experience.

And because I like it soooo much: "Beware, Brutes are coming to a city near you. They will steal your agro!"

Are MMs finally getting some more power choices? I heard that they were getting demons with going rogue, truth?

I have tried various times to get a Necro up in level, but seemed to always abandon it when the dum,b looking tier 2 pets show up. Zombies cool, but grave knight? Anyways, what's the story here?

Now, I am so much of an alter that I do not farm much. Having said that, I found a brute that can farm while I watch TV (he is leveling himself to 50 while I channel surf). I made up a Fire/Fire brute as a concept demon. Then I ran in my normal solo farm (any farm that has bubblers that softcap your res/def will do). Set the mobs at +2/x8, walk into a mob, and go watch TV. Come back in 5 minutes, switch him to the next mob. The damage aura does it all. Happy farming.

Quite right Rylas. My main gaming for a long time with my SS/Will Brute has been in Task Forces (Yes, he said Task Forces). Lady Grey and ITF are two of my main runs. I really appreciate it when there is a serious tanker in the ITF. My Brute is semi-squishie. I do not mind the deaths (I got a Rez power in my build after all), but when you die so does agro lol. So following a tank into the battle, letting them absord the alpha, then starting out with my AoEs is a beautiful tactic. Any squishies following us two are at least relatively sure we sponged up the agro. Since the mob sizes are generally over the tankers agro cap I get as much agro as I need, without having to take 10,000 spears in the face to get it. Makes for, to quote someone in the know, "a steamroller" effect.

This is the best I could come up with on the fly. I suggest you study each one of these builds to determine exactly what fits your playstyle. I also strongly suggest that you modify and tweak these builds to your tastes, because by spending more time tweaking the build, you can get more performance from it. Below are six different builds of varying costs, from the very affordable to the outrageously expensive. They focus on one of three things: recharge, defense, or HP/Regen. They are meant to educate on the various conventions on slotting and what kind of sets you might want to look for. My personal taste leans toward a high-end defense build similar to what I posted. However, high-end recharge builds are incredible offense-driven powerhouses that are fun to watch and play.

1) The Cheapest: Frankenslotted HP/Regen/Nrg Defense (50-100 million inf)
--Helps boost your NRG defenses without breaking the bank using cheap sets.
--Absolutely affordable. Simply playing your character to level 50 should pay for this.
--Modest performance for a very, very low price
--An exercise in frankenslotting. Notice footstomp, hurl, knockout blow, and RTTC.

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2) High-End HP/Regen (3-5 billion, depending on PvP IOs, hamis, 7.5's, and purples)
--580% Regen without RTTC active
--2,754 HP with accolades
--An exercise in splitting unique sets to get bonuses. Check out Hurl and Gloom (this is not personally recommended)
--Use of Eradication for the huge HP bonus

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3) Low-End Recharge Build (350 million)
--Using the cheaper recharge recipes on the market, I was able to get 50% recharge, without any LOTG 7.5's. A few empty slots are left if you wish to add 7.5's and use merits to earn them doing Strike Forces.
--If the player wishes to use LOTG 7.5s, I recommend 5-slotting rage with adjusted targetting for 5% recharge, and gaining the 7.5 recharges in your defense toggles. Also, RTTC could be 5 slotted with doctored for another 5% recharge. Just remember the rule of 5's (no more than 5 of one level of bonus, so no more than five 5% recharges)

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5) Low-End Defense (250 million)
--Smashing Haymaker over Kinetic Combat saves quite a bit of coin. Another notable we've already encountered is pounding slugfest, which offers Nrg/Neg defense for 3 slots. I chose to add S/L defense instead.
--Mako's Bite's triple (acc/end/rech) offers a wonderful way to round out your melee set numbers.
--Taunt Set IO's are a very, very cheap way to add some defense.
--Rectified Recticle is moderately expensive (3-5 mil for the two)
--Reactive Armors still aren't too expensive. Great set.
--I skipped eradication because the quad and triple tend to get pricey. If you can afford those, I recommend it for the nrg defense and the HP.
--Thunderstrike is a useful set for NRG/Neg and Ranged defense both.
--Don't forget you can mule some powers, like brawl and boxing to help your numbers.

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6) High-End Defense Build (1.4 billion)
--Kinetic Combats are awesome!
--No purples, though you can choose to add them.
--LOTG 7.5's are pricey, but you could earn them with merits. It's a toss-up right now which is more pricey - the LOTG 7.5 or the Kinetic Triple.
--Notice the generic taunt IO RTTC. This helps RTTC since the taunt duration sucks.
--35% to S/L/E/Neg is pretty nice. It isn't the softcap, and you can use other sets (like enfeebled's immobilize) to up the defense if you want. I chose to still keep some offense and other things.

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Try these in mids

Seriously, in this game economy 50 mil is nothing. I have earned more than that spending extra AE merits for dumb salvage to be auctioned while just getting 1-40. You need to take that 50 for a few strike forces/task forces/AE. Get some drops, get some merits, get some AE tickets.

My main is a SS/Will, but he is built for Rech/Damage, and has 4 purple sets slotted (I can afford the 5th, cannot squeeze it onto the build, infuriating).

Anyways, I asked for help with build advice, and someone posted that a mid's cheapy design for just your task. But 50 mil ain't gonna cut it I think. I will try to find the post and quote it for you.

Tankers play tanks because it is natural. I say that as someone who started the game and immediately made a tanker. In all video games I tend to go for the heaviest build, whether it is. In a tank game like armored core I make a heavy, or in a swords and sorcery where I take a barbarian, or an armored knight if available.

What seems to be a little different about CoH is that tanks do not do a lot of damage. Please read carefully. I am not saying tankers do not do damage. Doing damage is half a tanks job. I am only saying they do not do a lot of damage. This is in comparison to Blasters, Scrappers, Stalkers, Corruptors, and Brutes. Many people, myself especially, have been "socialized" to the fact that in video games a heavily armored character tends to have one of the Alpha attacks in the game. There are usually huge trade offs in speed, loss of certain special abilities, etc. Does not matter to players like me. Give me an avatar that can take a unearthly amount of pain and smack back hard enough to one shot half the stuff around, and I am happy.

In CoH it seems they had a completely different role in mind for their super heavy. Regulated to guard duty. Now, again, please read carefully. I am not saying you have to build every tank as a guard for the team. Build your Scranker, enjoy. I am only saying, from observation, that the Devs went in a different direction with how they favored Tankers with special abilities. You can build against this type, and if you really work against it, you can effectively make a light damage scrapper (only light dam compared to scrappers with crits, extra base damage) that can survive anything in the game.

To make a long story short, Tanks were alien to me when I made one. I was like "why am I struggling to kill normal stuff?" So, off to redside and the joy of smash.

I think we will always see Scrankers. But I think once Rogues comes out they will become rarer. Brutes will invade blue territory. My main is a SS/Will Brute. Not the most survivable non-squishie, but wow, the damage. I found in him the wonderful sweet spot of trade off between survivability and damage dealing. Now if he could only blast, lol.

I recently went on Scrapper area to ask what is the best scrapper. Right at the top of their boards is a sticky post. In reading it I discovered the best scrapper (for damage) is in fact a brute. So, with armors near tank level and damage better than scrappers it makes for a good build.

My brute does not have taunt. I wish I could take it, but no room. As a will brute you have to take the fighting shields, 3 power choices gone. There is zero flexibility in my power choices, sigh. The reason I want taunt on my brute is the reason all brutes want taunt (whether they know it or not) - Agro Agro Agro. Brutes are powered by Agro. And once they hit blueside watch out. The only thing bad about an all brute team is when we all start competing for the agro.

Brutes are greedy for agro. Be warned, they are coming to a city near you, and they want your agro. A Tanker with taunt will still be able to hold the agro from a brute (sad panda), but a Scranker with no taunt will be left on the battles sidelines, unless he follows the brute around. Have a smashing good day.

K, I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, but yeah, some brutes can survive it. It depends on a lot of factors, I am not saying brutes can survive anything. Heck, my main has a resurrection as a power lol.

But on a pretty standard very tough fight on a 8 person team, my brute will not faceplant. Now I have to do tricks, like using inspirations, terrain, etc. (playing smart) Brutes are not tanks, and have a little less survivability. My main is a SS/Will, and he is I/O'd out. I went to put a 5th purple set on him today, but couldn't find where to place it. He has Procs, and LOTG, and a buncha other bells and whistles. But he is a will brute, and while tough, he shines at killing ST and holding Agro with 2 AoE attacks (no taunt, no room, see above about 5th set). His tier nine is available very often because of a buttload of global recharge, the drop is nothing to him, so I use it very very regularly. That brute pops uber about every other mob, or every mob if it is a long fight. This makes him pretty survivable on even tough strike forces like the ITF.

Again, every brute is different, and every powerset/buildout has a different focus. Many people (like me) came to the game wanting a tank, and were shocked at the mediocre damage they do. So, redside brutedom here we come. And players like me build for survival first, and damage second. While my damage was my second priority, it was huge. I want ST damage comparable to a tough blaster or a scrapper, and I went and got it. But in order to lay out that pain I had to build tanky enough to survive. My first 50 was a SS/Invul brute. Ach, I cry. The end issues, the Tier 9 stupidity. Sigh. I only bring him up because he is about as tanky as you get blueside, and can survive stupid amounts of everything. The only 2 tankier brutes I know of are Dark/Invulnerable, and whatever/stone.

Hmm, that was rambling. Hope it helped cause I aint editing it. Time to Smash!

Fair enough, and I want to give scrappers a shot. So, who does the best "burst damage" of the scrappers (ST preferred)

Wow, while waiting around for replies (thanks to those that did) I read the 2 results are in stickies. I was thinking about taking scrappers for the edge in damage I assumed there would be. So much for assumptions. What were the Devs thinking? Oh, NVM, Devs thinking, heh.

K, thanks for the help.