You may have killed City Of Heroes!


Another_Fan

 

Posted

... but I'll get to that in a minute.....

I have no doubt that whatever the real reason is behind CoH being shut down .... we wouldn't like it very much.

I BELIEVE, as someone stated earlier, that the loss of CoH is simply an act to increase stock value for the shareholders. Companies are always under pressure to make stock look good. Yes, traditionally to look good they will turn a profit. However, layoffs, budget cuts, and all kinds of other sometimes questionable tactics are used to make people believe stock has greater value.

See stock prices ARE based on real things like assets, liabilities, and income potential, BUT are also often driven by perception - basically what people think the company is worth, what they are willing to pay, and will it make them money. Speculation.

Just as the stock price of NCSoft increased some 15% after the CoH closure announcement, they dropped again a week later. Perhaps a correction after the initial surge, or perhaps (as I like to believe) a reaction to the negative press they began to receive from the petition and the savecoh campaigns.

Lets toss some numbers around for fun. CoH I understand makes $10 million /year. Even if they put time, effort, and money into marketing to say... double that.... you're looking at $20 million/ year. A lot to you and I, but not so to a company "worth" around $5 billion. Simply announcing the "sunset" of CoH... their stock surged 15%... thats an increase in their "value" of $750 million!!!!

Funny huh? You and I see that as a loss of real income... but to them its a tiny investment increasing share value. (Probably netted the executives some nice bonuses at the same time).

So, why our City? CoH is really small in their arsenal of games. Sure Aion may be losing money (I don't know that - just heard it) - but it still has potential in sheer numbers of players. Aion was in the 1 million subscriber range at one point - CoH peaked around 150k with the most recent below the 50k mark. I could probably find other examples but I think you get the idea.

Assuming all of this is correct... the best plan of action would probably to continue the bad publicity and continue to tank NCsoft stock prices. Even if we can't save CoH - we can at least send a message for them to tread carefully in the future.

Still can't wrap your head around them throwing away $10 million /year? Consider the most valuable thing to a software company.... the people. The people are the most valuable thing they have. Where we see a great team of Zwill et al and the community as a whole, they can see a waste of resources. Like having a goose that can lay golden eggs only pumping out tin. "They are only making $10 mil /year? They should be making $100 mil!" Already it seems they have found positions for the Paragon staff in new projects. Again.... an investment sacrificing CoH to better use the staff elsewhere.

Now....

A lot of people have been blaming Nexon for this situation. Which is entirely reasonable, after all, at 14.7% they are the majority shareholder, and again, anything NCSoft has done has been to increase shareholder value. This got me thinking. Who else is a shareholder? There is another 85.3% of NCSoft floating out there. Is it possible... that WE own it? Could CoH players actually be the evil shareholders that we are up in arms about?

My first thought was to look at mutual funds. For those not familiar, a mutual fund is a group of stocks put together as a bundle by a financial institution. Most of us don't keep track of all the different companies in our mutual funds, but there can be dozens - or even hundreds. Likely companies you have heard of like Apple, Microsoft, and IBM, but also many you haven't heard of...

So, in Google I typed "ncsoft mutual fund". The first hit I got was American Century Investments, which indeed includes NCSoft shares in some of their mutual portfolios. I then Wiki'd American Century Investments and found that CIBC owns a 41% stake in them. A top Canadian bank, an American Investment company, and a Korean software company. Sounds almost like a crazy conspiracy theory, but just one small example of how, in a very real way, any of us can be the evil shareholder pressuring NCSOft to increase their stock prices.... without even knowing it.

I still keep hoping that NCSoft will change their mind (however unlikely) or that they will sell it (very unlikely), or that Titan can pull some magic trick out of their hat. I don't like the thought of my toons being killed off. I love this game and I know everyone wants a reason for its ending. I hope this can help even in a small way to understanding. Just like any relationship, it helps to have some kind of closure.

Let the trolling begin....


________________________________
"Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good" - Suicidal Tendancies

 

Posted

Professor plum with the wrench in the library


 

Posted

Right... like anyone in their right mind would trust their money with brokers these days.

What? Well... guess there's a lot of people out of their minds.


Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

"Already it seems they have found positions for the Paragon staff in new projects. Again.... an investment sacrificing CoH to better use the staff elsewhere."

I keep seeing things like this written as well as "better use of resources".

Am I incorrect in my understanding of the Paragon Staff employment being terminated the day of the announcement?

That's not a better use of resources, that's eliminate income plus profit (minimal or otherwise), as well as eliminate the positions that income was funding while losing any profits.


The final line of a post by Sweet_Sarah on Liberty
"Together we entered a city of strangers, we made it a city of friends, and we leave it a City of Heroes."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0bcatmc View Post
"Already it seems they have found positions for the Paragon staff in new projects. Again.... an investment sacrificing CoH to better use the staff elsewhere."

I keep seeing things like this written as well as "better use of resources".

Am I incorrect in my understanding of the Paragon Staff employment being terminated the day of the announcement?

That's not a better use of resources, that's eliminate income plus profit (minimal or otherwise), as well as eliminate the positions that income was funding while losing any profits.
Note that the entire post begins with "I BELIEVE" and that sentence begins with "IT SEEMS". There are details I do not have proof of, and that is one. Posts I have read on Facebook outlined jobs taken by various Paragon staff. I have not verified these, nor do I intend to. It could be just as possible that NCsoft viewed Paragon staff as dead weight and just wanted to get rid of them, and now they live in a van by the river. I make no claims to any of this being fact.


________________________________
"Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good" - Suicidal Tendancies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torment And Agony View Post
... but I'll get to that in a minute.....

I have no doubt that whatever the real reason is behind CoH being shut down .... we wouldn't like it very much.

I BELIEVE, as someone stated earlier, that the loss of CoH is simply an act to increase stock value for the shareholders. Companies are always under pressure to make stock look good. Yes, traditionally to look good they will turn a profit. However, layoffs, budget cuts, and all kinds of other sometimes questionable tactics are used to make people believe stock has greater value.

See stock prices ARE based on real things like assets, liabilities, and income potential, BUT are also often driven by perception - basically what people think the company is worth, what they are willing to pay, and will it make them money. Speculation.

Just as the stock price of NCSoft increased some 15% after the CoH closure announcement, they dropped again a week later. Perhaps a correction after the initial surge, or perhaps (as I like to believe) a reaction to the negative press they began to receive from the petition and the savecoh campaigns.

Lets toss some numbers around for fun. CoH I understand makes $10 million /year. Even if they put time, effort, and money into marketing to say... double that.... you're looking at $20 million/ year. A lot to you and I, but not so to a company "worth" around $5 billion. Simply announcing the "sunset" of CoH... their stock surged 15%... thats an increase in their "value" of $750 million!!!!

Funny huh? You and I see that as a loss of real income... but to them its a tiny investment increasing share value. (Probably netted the executives some nice bonuses at the same time).

So, why our City? CoH is really small in their arsenal of games. Sure Aion may be losing money (I don't know that - just heard it) - but it still has potential in sheer numbers of players. Aion was in the 1 million subscriber range at one point - CoH peaked around 150k with the most recent below the 50k mark. I could probably find other examples but I think you get the idea.

Assuming all of this is correct... the best plan of action would probably to continue the bad publicity and continue to tank NCsoft stock prices. Even if we can't save CoH - we can at least send a message for them to tread carefully in the future.

Still can't wrap your head around them throwing away $10 million /year? Consider the most valuable thing to a software company.... the people. The people are the most valuable thing they have. Where we see a great team of Zwill et al and the community as a whole, they can see a waste of resources. Like having a goose that can lay golden eggs only pumping out tin. "They are only making $10 mil /year? They should be making $100 mil!" Already it seems they have found positions for the Paragon staff in new projects. Again.... an investment sacrificing CoH to better use the staff elsewhere.

Now....

A lot of people have been blaming Nexon for this situation. Which is entirely reasonable, after all, at 14.7% they are the majority shareholder, and again, anything NCSoft has done has been to increase shareholder value. This got me thinking. Who else is a shareholder? There is another 85.3% of NCSoft floating out there. Is it possible... that WE own it? Could CoH players actually be the evil shareholders that we are up in arms about?

My first thought was to look at mutual funds. For those not familiar, a mutual fund is a group of stocks put together as a bundle by a financial institution. Most of us don't keep track of all the different companies in our mutual funds, but there can be dozens - or even hundreds. Likely companies you have heard of like Apple, Microsoft, and IBM, but also many you haven't heard of...

So, in Google I typed "ncsoft mutual fund". The first hit I got was American Century Investments, which indeed includes NCSoft shares in some of their mutual portfolios. I then Wiki'd American Century Investments and found that CIBC owns a 41% stake in them. A top Canadian bank, an American Investment company, and a Korean software company. Sounds almost like a crazy conspiracy theory, but just one small example of how, in a very real way, any of us can be the evil shareholder pressuring NCSOft to increase their stock prices.... without even knowing it.

I still keep hoping that NCSoft will change their mind (however unlikely) or that they will sell it (very unlikely), or that Titan can pull some magic trick out of their hat. I don't like the thought of my toons being killed off. I love this game and I know everyone wants a reason for its ending. I hope this can help even in a small way to understanding. Just like any relationship, it helps to have some kind of closure.

Let the trolling begin....
I think you are spot on my man. The reality is it is a vicious cycle that the average person enters unwittingly most of the time from the instant they sock money away into their 401k plan.

Executives salaries being tied to the stock price was the straw that broke the camel's back. As long as this practice continues you will see more things like this that appear on the surface not to make sense, but just under the surface is where the real action is and it is not exactly the way people think it is.

How many people are willing to take less of a return on "their" stocks across the board to end some of the practices that make closing profitable businesses against the law?

Not the majority in the US for sure as this question was posed and answered resoundingly in the 90's. Of course people now want to go back and revise things but the jelly is already out of the donut.


The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.

 

Posted

I checked out NCSoft stock a few days ago. It went up for about a week and a half then started back down again. It's value is now below what it was before the announcement.


 

Posted

First let's ignore the fact that the surge was likely due to Guild Wars 2 with one million pre-sales launching a few days before our announcement. Second the closure of City of Heroes simply wasn't reported in Korea, on NCSoft's corporate web site or even their game site (unlike the rejection notice last week) or on Korean MMO gaming sites or investor news sites. Our closer was a non-event in the eyes of the Korean investment community.

Yes, there should be a minor mention in the next quarterly report, buried among the footnotes compared to the highlighting of Guild Wars 2 sales which brings that quarter back to profitability. We are small fish. We are a coral atoll while their other games are continental land masses. The loss of our little island will be overshadowed by the newly discovered land of Guild Wars 2.

As for who else owns NCSoft, that's public record. First only 28% is owned by foreign investors. 10% is own my management, which is the founder/CEO/Director (he had 25% but sold 15% to Nexon); 9% by the national pension, 15% by domestic institutions, 13% by individuals and the remaining 9% the company is sitting on. So sure we might through some mutual fund in our 401K own a fraction of NCSoft, but we aren't Warren Buffet and don't own enough of anything to actually influence anyone.


Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components

Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
First let's ignore the fact that the surge was likely due to Guild Wars 2 with one million pre-sales launching a few days before our announcement. Second the closure of City of Heroes simply wasn't reported in Korea, on NCSoft's corporate web site or even their game site (unlike the rejection notice last week) or on Korean MMO gaming sites or investor news sites. Our closer was a non-event in the eyes of the Korean investment community.

Yes, there should be a minor mention in the next quarterly report, buried among the footnotes compared to the highlighting of Guild Wars 2 sales which brings that quarter back to profitability. We are small fish. We are a coral atoll while their other games are continental land masses. The loss of our little island will be overshadowed by the newly discovered land of Guild Wars 2.

As for who else owns NCSoft, that's public record. First only 28% is owned by foreign investors. 10% is own my management, which is the founder/CEO/Director (he had 25% but sold 15% to Nexon); 9% by the national pension, 15% by domestic institutions, 13% by individuals and the remaining 9% the company is sitting on. So sure we might through some mutual fund in our 401K own a fraction of NCSoft, but we aren't Warren Buffet and don't own enough of anything to actually influence anyone.
Guild Wars 2 - excellent point and you are probably correct there.

Whether one owns 90% or 0.00000001% does not make anyone less culpable. All 100% combined are seeking the same goal - profit.


________________________________
"Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good" - Suicidal Tendancies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
As for who else owns NCSoft, that's public record. First only 28% is owned by foreign investors. 10% is own my management, which is the founder/CEO/Director (he had 25% but sold 15% to Nexon); 9% by the national pension, 15% by domestic institutions, 13% by individuals and the remaining 9% the company is sitting on. So sure we might through some mutual fund in our 401K own a fraction of NCSoft, but we aren't Warren Buffet and don't own enough of anything to actually influence anyone.
*plants tongue firmly in cheek* YOU WORK FOR NCSOFT!

Sorry, had to


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torment And Agony View Post
Whether one owns 90% or 0.00000001% does not make anyone less culpable. All 100% combined are seeking the same goal - profit.
And what's wrong with that?


Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components

Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torment And Agony View Post
Guild Wars 2 - excellent point and you are probably correct there.

Whether one owns 90% or 0.00000001% does not make anyone less culpable. All 100% combined are seeking the same goal - profit.
Well if profit seeking killed CoH, then the original problem is with the developers who wanted to get paid for their work. They should have just developed and run the game for free for everyone.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironik View Post
Torment and Agony doesn't often day trade, but when he does, he wears a tinfoil hat.
I actually do day trade. Tend to avoid stocks though, I trade in futures and currency. Do nicely too.

And the tinfoil hat.... it goes well with the no pants look.


________________________________
"Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good" - Suicidal Tendancies

 

Posted

I admit I only skimmed, but just to be sure I caught the gist of it... we should blame Canada, right?

First Hans Island, and now City of Heroes. Is nothing sacred??

(disclaimer: I'm not being entirely serious)


Thought for the day:

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."

=][=

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaunyeh View Post
I admit I only skimmed, but just to be sure I caught the gist of it... we should blame Canada, right?

First Hans Island, and now City of Heroes. Is nothing sacred??

(disclaimer: I'm not being entirely serious)
And the Baldwins! Won't somebody think of the Baldwins?!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Xmas View Post
And what's wrong with that?
OMG! Santa supports corporations and profit and hates City of Heroes! Thats why the game is being cancelled before Christmas!!

*cries


________________________________
"Just cause you don't understand what's going on don't mean it don't make no sense
And just cause you don't like it, don't mean it ain't no good" - Suicidal Tendancies

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torment And Agony View Post
OMG! Santa supports corporations and profit and hates City of Heroes! Thats why the game is being cancelled before Christmas!!

*cries
1%er dude


Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components

Tempus unum hominem manet

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torment And Agony View Post
... but I'll get to that in a minute.....



Lets toss some numbers around for fun. CoH I understand makes $10 million /year. Even if they put time, effort, and money into marketing to say... double that.... you're looking at $20 million/ year. A lot to you and I, but not so to a company "worth" around $5 billion. Simply announcing the "sunset" of CoH... their stock surged 15%... thats an increase in their "value" of $750 million!!!!



Still can't wrap your head around them throwing away $10 million /year? Consider the most valuable thing to a software company.... the people. The people are the most valuable thing they have. Where we see a great team of Zwill et al and the community as a whole, they can see a waste of resources. Like having a goose that can lay golden eggs only pumping out tin. "They are only making $10 mil /year? They should be making $100 mil!" Already it seems they have found positions for the Paragon staff in new projects. Again.... an investment sacrificing CoH to better use the staff elsewhere.



Let the trolling begin....
That is the point : if they would invest , let us say, 70 or 80 millions a year in CoH a 10 milion years income could be a worty investiment but I suspect they were investing in it much more.