A failed attempt to save the game is still worthwile
By
blackjak,
Posted on: 2012-10-11 08:52 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Trust Fire_Away to tell you who the captain is.
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Originally Posted by Fire_Away
Anyway, why worry? GG was right. The only thing wrong with City of Heroes for eight years was the lack of flowing hair. Besides, the work on a successor is well in hand. She said so.
Trust the captain of the Titanic when the ship went down, that iceberg was taught a lesson it'll never forget. |
Ultima Online
Dark Age of Camelot
Everquest
Asheron's Call
Anarchy Online
Everquest II
All of these games are older than CoX(EQII is the same age).
All of these games appear to have less players than CoX.
All of these games are owned by companies that are not NCsoft...
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Throwing Ultima Online out of the set for the moment, as I don't consider it a 'modern' MMO because it's 2D iso.|
Originally Posted by Positivity
Ultima Online
Dark Age of Camelot Everquest Asheron's Call Anarchy Online Everquest II All of these games are older than CoX(EQII is the same age). All of these games appear to have less players than CoX. All of these games are owned by companies that are not NCsoft... |
Another thing that all those games have in common is that their developers continued to put out new products.
DAoC -> Warhammer Online
EQ -> EQ2
AC -> DDO -> LOTRO
AO -> AOC -> TSW
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Paragon Studios wanted to |
Originally Posted by Brillig
Another thing that all those games have in common is that their developers continued to put out new products.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
No, Paragon Studios failed to
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You are un-smart.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
No, Paragon Studios failed to
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FTFY. Whether they did so because they weren't sold on Darker & Edgier CoH and the Sekrit Project, or were more invested in B&S and GW2, or were already divesting themselves of western projects, or all of the above, that's up for debate.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
No, NCSoft failed to find funding for
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Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Third Dawn shifted to more 3D with the fixed iso view.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Throwing Ultima Online out of the set for the moment, as I don't consider it a 'modern' MMO because it's 2D iso.
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Spyral, "failed to find funding for" might even be too nice, considering how much funding other non-PS projects got.
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No, you didn't. (Fix anything for me.)|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
FTFY. Whether they did so because they weren't sold on Darker & Edgier CoH and the Sekrit Project, or were more invested in B&S and GW2, or were already divesting themselves of western projects, or all of the above, that's up for debate.
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There is no basis to draw any conclusion as to why Paragon got so many projects killed. It's as likely that it was because they were complete carp as anything else.
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If I recall correctly, the 3D client was horribly buggy and universally hated, eventually entirelly abandoned and everything continued in old fashion 2D.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Third Dawn shifted to more 3D with the fixed iso view.
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I'm pretty sure the next expansion continued with that client or at least whatever the one with paladins and necromancers was, I stopped playing during that one.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
If I recall correctly, the 3D client was horribly buggy and universally hated, eventually entirelly abandoned and everything continued in old fashion 2D.
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Wikipedia says support for the 3D client was dropped in 2007 and Third Dawn was released in 2001, so it existed for 5-6 years,
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So it's wrong to speculate on any wrongdoing by NCsoft, but it's OK to do it to PS? |
Originally Posted by Brillig
No, you didn't. (Fix anything for me.)
There is no basis to draw any conclusion as to why Paragon got so many projects killed. It's as likely that it was because they were complete carp as anything else. |
Hypocrite.
And say what you want about the other projects, which seem to have been shuttered with no explanation. That a company as big as NCsoft couldn't even give PS a pittance for a marketing budget is insulting. Why should I assume that PS got any more respect when it came to the other projects?
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The sources that spoke about the darker / edgier project also said it was cancelled because NCSoft needed the funding for Blade & Soul and Guild Wars 2 going over-schedule and Paragon was the low project on the totem pole.|
Originally Posted by Brillig
There is no basis to draw any conclusion as to why Paragon got so many projects killed. It's as likely that it was because they were complete carp as anything else.
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NCSoft said itself that it shut down Paragon because it was re-organizing in a new direction.
Drawing the conclusion that the cancellations were because the projects were crap doesn't smack of axe-grinding as it is nub-of-wood-that-used-to-be-an-axe-grinding.
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Although it was supported for a long time, it was ignored by most players. I'm not sure if 2007 was simply the year that the latest content update happened to break the client.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
I'm pretty sure the next expansion continued with that client or at least whatever the one with paladins and necromancers was, I stopped playing during that one.
Wikipedia says support for the 3D client was dropped in 2007 and Third Dawn was released in 2001, so it existed for 5-6 years, |
Anyways, the fact that the game is "not a modern MMO", still not an excuse to say "cant use it as an example".
But there are others in the list:
Meridian 59 is still running, that's 17 years! (dont go to their website, they exceeded their bandwith
)Horizons changed name to Istaria and is still running, that's 9 years.
Final Fantasy XI is still running, that is also 9 years.
Second Life Online, 9 years
Eve Online, 9 years
The list can go on and on if you bother to double check mmorpg.com's MMO list to see what is actually still online.
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No, there are plenty of people here already that assume that any wrongdoing is on the part of NCSoft. With, I might add, a complete lack of evidence.|
Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
So it's wrong to speculate on any wrongdoing by NCsoft, but it's OK to do it to PS?
Hypocrite. And say what you want about the other projects, which seem to have been shuttered with no explanation. That a company as big as NCsoft couldn't even give PS a pittance for a marketing budget is insulting. Why should I assume that PS got any more respect when it came to the other projects? |
Presenting a contrarian point of view is just balance.
P.S. PS had a marketing budget.
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Originally Posted by blackjak
BUT, to not try, to roll over and capitulate, is bordering on cowardice IF you care. If you don't then no biggie.
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Whoa, personal foul. I don't know you but let's make a deal. As a seven and a half year player and a 26 year US military man I will not imply you are delusional if you refrain from the implication that I am a coward.
And now back to forum pvp
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Originally Posted by TimTheEnchanter
Trust Fire_Away to tell you who the captain is.
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One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Or because they wanted to do something "close to home", another super-hero related game, and NCSoft had as much interest in that as they proven to have in this one.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
There is no basis to draw any conclusion as to why Paragon got so many projects killed. It's as likely that it was because they were complete carp as anything else.
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"Don't go to their website, they exceeded their bandwidth"? And you consider that a going concern?|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Although it was supported for a long time, it was ignored by most players. I'm not sure if 2007 was simply the year that the latest content update happened to break the client.
Anyways, the fact that the game is "not a modern MMO", still not an excuse to say "cant use it as an example". But there are others in the list: Meridian 59 is still running, that's 17 years! (dont go to their website, they exceeded their bandwith )Horizons changed name to Istaria [/URL]and is still running, that's 9 years. Final Fantasy XI[/URL] is still running, that is also 9 years. Second Life Online, 9 years Eve Online, 9 years The list can go on and on if you bother to double check mmorpg.com's MMO list to see what is actually still online. |
Horizons died a couple of times, and last time I heard was bought out by an LLC formed by one of the lead developers. Running mainly as a volunteer/part-time craft project.
Second Life - really?
EVE online - was growing pretty steadily for the last couple of years.
Seriously. These examples suck.
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In the same way that a poweful Sith was foretold to bring balance to the force.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
Presenting a contrarian point of view is just balance.
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If you want to develop a project and you insist on developing something that upper management is proven not to be interested in, I consider that your failure, not management's.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
Or because they wanted to do something "close to home", another super-hero related game, and NCSoft had as much interest in that as they proven to have in this one.
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It's that it's more Paragon's responsibility to make something that NCSoft wants to invest in, and less that it's NCSoft's responsibility to invest in what Paragon wants to make.
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In the same way that bad analogies are powering the Intarwebz.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
In the same way that a poweful Sith was foretold to bring balance to the force.
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Paragon Studios made multiple pitches to NCsoft. Each time, NCsoft told them, "No... we don't care for that." What NCsoft didn't tell Paragon Studios is what they were looking for. Paragon Studios didn't get any feedback like, "If you tweak this or adjust that...", or any kind of directive like, "We'd like to make something that fits into [whatever] paradigm."|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
FTFY. Whether they did so because they weren't sold on Darker & Edgier CoH and the Sekrit Project, or were more invested in B&S and GW2, or were already divesting themselves of western projects, or all of the above, that's up for debate.
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So without any kind of direction or leadership from corporate, they kept pitching ideas. They finally hit upon one--the Secret Project™--but from what I've heard about it, it was not a sequel to City of Heroes. It focused heavily on crafting and customization, think kind of Minecraftish, but without everything being cubes.
Point is this. You know how if you watch Bugs Bunny and then watch Akira, it's a bit of a culture shock? Not that Akira is a bad movie, but although they're both animated, "cartoon" in western culture conjures up a different mental image than "anime" does somewhere like Japan. NCsoft suffers from not understanding western-style MMORPGs. Compounding that is that they really are incredibly stupid about the appeal of Western-style superheroes; they have no clue, they just don't "get it." And for the past few years, virtually all decisions about these games have been coming from corporate out of Seoul, with NC Interactive having little to no say in matters over which, in theory, they should have leadership and control.
Read some of the reviews at Glassdoor.com. I'm not referring to the scorchingly negative rating of the company since most people seeking out this site are doing so because they're pissed off. Ignoring the poor guy or gal who posted the positive review at the top (they were a Paragon Staffer that was laid off two days after posting it), look at the "Advice to Senior Management" sections. They all have a recurring theme that has been hammered on back to 2011: Let the western operations company run the western operations. These aren't just Paragon Studios people (who you can tell by the city being Mountain View, CA); most of them are out of Austin or Seattle--insiders within NC west itself. What's sad is that NC Interactive itself is hamstrung by the corporate overlords out of Korea. They're going to run it into the ground, and once it's dead and buried, rue how badly their U.S. colleagues were at running things when in fact, they are the ones that killed it.
I don't want anyone coming away from this thinking that Paragon Studios screwed up, as much as NCsoft would love for everyone to believe that. Paragon Studios has always had a much better grasp on its players and how the game could do well than NCsoft, and they have been trying for years to do so. If NCsoft were smart (and they're not), they wouldn't have continually hamstrung Paragon Studios, and instead, supported them and let them do what they do best. And it's not just Paragon Studios; it's ALL of their subsidiaries, which is why I genuinely fear for the people currently working at Arena.net and especially Carbine. The recent craziness going on in Guild Wars 2 that's causing such a stink is yet another example of NCsoft thinking--and being grossly mistaken--about what players want, what they're willing to take, and not listening to their development studios or letting them make decisions in the best interest of their games.
There WAS a City of Heroes 2 pitched. (Note again that I'm not referring to the Secret Project™; I'm talking about an honest-to-god sequel.) Several times, in fact, over the years. It would have been a cool game. I've gotten scraps of information here and there about what it would have been about. (Goodbye Rhode Island, hello California!) Each time it was pitched, it was turned down without explanation or help, just NCsoft corporate's silent denial to let its western properties grow and flourish and unrelenting pursuit of turning us into Korean gamers. To extend the metaphor, they resent the fact that some of us really love Bugs Bunny and are actively trying to convert it or kill it off so that everyone will watch anime instead, which they're more familiar with and understand better.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Your counter examples suck. |
Originally Posted by Brillig
"Don't go to their website, they exceeded their bandwidth"? And you consider that a going concern?
Horizons died a couple of times, and last time I heard was bought out by an LLC formed by one of the lead developers. Running mainly as a volunteer/part-time craft project. Second Life - really? EVE online - was growing pretty steadily for the last couple of years. Seriously. These examples suck. |
You seem to have an entirely made-up excuse for anything. "That one is too old to count", "that one... i can just say... like... duh... like really?"
The only one that may be point of joke to a level is Meridian 59's website being currently over bandwith limit, but right now the game is in the hand of players, has been for over 12 years. Unlike certain company, 3DO sold the game license to it's playerbase, who took charge of hosting and development for over a decade later and still do (the website is down, as far as I know the game is running.)
But not sure why I waste time, you are intentionally arguing anything no mater what is set in front of you.
Only facts in the table:
- Paragon Studios was profitable.
- Compared to the last reported quarter, the game grew a small percentage year over year.
- There are plenty of examples of games with less playerbase that have run for longer lifespans.
This game did not have to die. Worst case scenario, IF there was a reason to worry about the studio or game profit margins, a first attempt should have been done to shrink the dev team and perhap merge studios. That is: IF you gave a ***** about your players and the game.
My take on it is that this "old" game of 8+ years could be presented as a "classic" without too much efffort. Not only is there the longevity of the game and devoted players, but part of the appeal for some of us is pure nostalgia. CoH is enjoyed by children (let's admit it, under the recommended age of 13 for PG-Teen), their parents, and even their grandparents. It appeals to the responsible adult who has many demands on her/his time by requiring little grinding or daily log-ins; i.e. casual play works just fine. It's elaborate enough to keep most of us interested and playing, yet easy enough to learn that grandparents and gradeschool kids can play and enjoy it--and that's especially true for those who simply enjoy designing costumes with a superhero theme. (CoH *is* my fave coloring book!)
Yes, player numbers have fluctuated over the years, and if what I read on these forums is correct, with ever declining numbers. HOWEVER, there are new players all the time (I started with Issue 15) and some love it and stay.
There have been discussions here about marketing and advertising (or lack thereof) and speculated consequences. IF a company such as Disney were to take City of Heroes under its umbrella, who can predict the extent to which this might be marketed and "branded"? (and, no, I don't mean with a branding iron.) I can imagine some pretty snazzy marketing coming out of formerly Paragon working with Disney. Per NCSoft, CoH seems to appeal most strongly to NA and EU markets, markets Disney has always had an interest in.
Those of us who grew up with comicbooks and retained affection for them in adulthood and especially those who imagined their own superheroes find City of Heroes especially appealing.
An in other markets, "niche" may well be the way to go in MMORPG's to successfully compete for market share. Making it cost effective is the purview of the publisher. Does EverQuest I for instance have similar player numbers?
[total aside: much of what I've said here is because I'm mentally drafting the letters I'll be writing to Disney in support of Team Wildcard's efforts.]
aka @Kristoff von Gelmini, leader of small SG bases (Infinity/Victory/Virtue/Protector), member of The House of Tera (Justice) and various others (Champion/Infinity/Victory/Guardian/Freedom).