Mission Architect - CoH killer?


afocks

 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Alex I'll take How to use google incorrectly for 500.


At the begining of the depression movie gross dropped because people stopped making them.

http://www.shmoop.com/great-depression/statistics.html
Movie attendance is not the same as movie profits.

What did they do to prices in that period? The 2nd article I linked above suggests that movie ticket prices dropped by 1/3, while your numbers suggest attendance increased by around 1/2.

I hardly compelling to firmly conclude that "people flock to movies in downturns" when there are significant price cuts involved.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrinsic View Post
See comments regarding price cuts.


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Posted

If, and I stress the "if" part, anything done by the game caused the sharp decline, I'm with those who cite lack of new things to do. That burned me out, as well as many on my friends list, most of whose names I haven't seen light up since. While I bought yearly subscriptions, I took longer and longer breaks from the game. I've logged more hours since the Freedom relaunch than the two years prior to it.

However, we all have our own anecdotal tales of what caused people to leave, and they usually are the things that bothered us personally since we tend to gravitate towards people who we have things in common with. Given that none of us know more than the tiniest fraction of total players, if any of those anecdotal reasons are truly responsible, it is sheer coincidence, not insight.

I personally believe that the AE was a great idea, badly implemented so that it harmed the game in that putting out the Architect Edition brought new blood into the game, who then thought the game was PL to 50 and have nothing to do so they left. Of course, it is also very possible that those people would never have stayed since they clearly thought PLing to max level is what you do in a game to get to the end game raids. I find it ludicrous to believe, especially after the ED uprorar and the I13 PvP squabble players left in droves over PLing in AE. UberGuy has the most logical explanation.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Movie attendance is not the same as movie profits.

What did they do to prices in that period? The 2nd article I linked above suggests that movie ticket prices dropped by 1/3, while your numbers suggest attendance increased by around 1/2.

I hardly compelling to firmly conclude that "people flock to movies in downturns" when there are significant price cuts involved.
IIRC 1930 was the movie industriess most profitable year in real dollars until the early 2000s


 

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Originally Posted by Doctor_Gemini View Post
If, and I stress the "if" part, anything done by the game caused the sharp decline, I'm with those who cite lack of new things to do. That burned me out, as well as many on my friends list, most of whose names I haven't seen light up since. While I bought yearly subscriptions, I took longer and longer breaks from the game. I've logged more hours since the Freedom relaunch than the two years prior to it.

However, we all have our own anecdotal tales of what caused people to leave, and they usually are the things that bothered us personally since we tend to gravitate towards people who we have things in common with. Given that none of us know more than the tiniest fraction of total players, if any of those anecdotal reasons are truly responsible, it is sheer coincidence, not insight.

I personally believe that the AE was a great idea, badly implemented so that it harmed the game in that putting out the Architect Edition brought new blood into the game, who then thought the game was PL to 50 and have nothing to do so they left. Of course, it is also very possible that those people would never have stayed since they clearly thought PLing to max level is what you do in a game to get to the end game raids. I find it ludicrous to believe, especially after the ED uprorar and the I13 PvP squabble players left in droves over PLing in AE. UberGuy has the most logical explanation.

You've touched on of the reasons that caused many people to leave - lack on new stuff to do.

The problem was that the new stuff was MA. The devs thought they were giving us the ultimate tool to make new stuff, when what they actually gave us was a power levelers dream ticket.

The two are definitely linked - MA and lack of new content at that time.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
You've touched on of the reasons that caused many people to leave - lack on new stuff to do.

The problem was that the new stuff was MA. The devs thought they were giving us the ultimate tool to make new stuff, when what they actually gave us was a power levelers dream ticket.

The two are definitely linked - MA and lack of new content at that time.
To me, the dearth of new content looked like effort was going into going rogue instead of the regular bits we would get with each new issue.


 

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Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Movie attendance is not the same as movie profits.
We were never talking about profits. We were talking about revenue. The OP is talking about revenue. So was I. What those companies do, or fail to do, with that revenue is another story.


 

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Actually the only thing that is really telling and significant for us that are still playing is that free to play made absolutely no difference. We should have seen a boost in Q2 2012 revenue.


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Originally Posted by Intrinsic View Post
We were never talking about profits. We were talking about revenue. The OP is talking about revenue. So was I. What those companies do, or fail to do, with that revenue is another story.
So true I can't think of a time I bought something because I was concerned how it would help the company's bottom line.


 

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Originally Posted by TexasLonghorne View Post
Actually the only thing that is really telling and significant for us that are still playing is that free to play made absolutely no difference. We should have seen a boost in Q2 2012 revenue.
That surprised me.

I really though that it would have caused a dip in revenue after the initial burst of F2P purchases.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasLonghorne View Post
Actually the only thing that is really telling and significant for us that are still playing is that free to play made absolutely no difference. We should have seen a boost in Q2 2012 revenue.
I agree, and I think it influenced the decision to shut down the game. They obviously put a lot of resources in converting the game into F2P, and in creating stuff for the cash shop. There was a small bump initially, but otherwise it didn't seem to pay off.


 

Posted

I disagree entirely.

MA added a lot to the game. From allowing players to expand their creativity to even drawing attention from major authors IRL.

Much like base editing, collecting and altaholicing - some players found this to be their cup of tea, including me.

It allowed players to enjoy new content and create their own. Not everyone was as excited as others, but, in no way did Mission Architect entirely contribute to the "downfall" of COH.

My opinion.


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Originally Posted by Zenlon View Post
I disagree entirely.

MA added a lot to the game. From allowing players to expand their creativity to even drawing attention from major authors IRL.

Much like base editing, collecting and altaholicing - some players found this to be their cup of tea, including me.

It allowed players to enjoy new content and create their own. Not everyone was as excited as others, but, in no way did Mission Architect entirely contribute to the "downfall" of COH.

My opinion.
The revenue figures - and my personal experience say otherwise.

Those players that used MA as it was intended to be used - such as yourself - aren't what this thread was aimed at.

The problem was that the devs gave far too much scope for abuse with MA - and it most certainly was abused to such an extent that people left the game because of it.


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Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
The revenue figures - and my personal experience say otherwise.

Those players that used MA as it was intended to be used - such as yourself - aren't what this thread was aimed at.

The problem was that the devs gave far too much scope for abuse with MA - and it most certainly was abused to such an extent that people left the game because of it.
The Revenue figures say nothing of the sort. You might as well associate your need to use the toilet with the chance your phone will ring. The best you can say is that changes to the game over the period of decline, weren't enough to reverse the trend, and maybe just maybe if you had more data, that going rogue didn't sell outside the people already playing the game.


 

Posted

If other people power leveling is what ruined the game for you, I feel sorry for you.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
The problem was that the devs gave far too much scope for abuse with MA - and it most certainly was abused to such an extent that people left the game because of it.
Here's the thing, from my perspective. If you left the game over what other people were doing, and you had no access to players who weren't doing that, then I don't think the AE was why you left. It may have been the proverbial straw that broke your back, but I am incredulous that it solely was the reason a bunch of people left.

Is it possible that a bunch of people were hanging on by a thread and what they saw in the AE pushed them over the edge? Yeah, based on other posts in this thread, that might be reasonable. That would make the AE's execution (and the timing thereof) unfortunate, but I think would be a lot less damning of the AE itself.

Quitting a game like CoH over the rash of AE farming if nothing else was bothering you seems extraordinarily shallow and childish, especially knowing that it wasn't as if the devs intended for it to be a PL tool - and they were abundantly clear about that in statement, if not in immediate action. No matter how poorly they executed their punishments and nerfs, I was never unclear about how they wanted the AE used (or not used), and I found ludicrous the people who tried to defend their farming, even though personally had zero problem with them doing it.

Since I choose not to conclude that a significant proportion of our players are shallow and childish (perhaps a poor decision, but one I stand by), I don't accept that this alone explains any exodus.


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Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
Here's the thing, from my perspective. If you left the game over what other people were doing, and you had no access to players who weren't doing that, then I don't think the AE was why you left. It may have been the proverbial straw that broke your back, but I am incredulous that it solely was the reason a bunch of people left.

Is it possible that a bunch of people were hanging on by a thread and what they saw in the AE pushed them over the edge? Yeah, based on other posts in this thread, that might be reasonable. That would make the AE's execution (and the timing thereof) unfortunate, but I think would be a lot less damning of the AE itself.

Quitting a game like CoH over the rash of AE farming if nothing else was bothering you seems extraordinarily shallow and childish, especially knowing that it wasn't as if the devs intended for it to be a PL tool - and they were abundantly clear about that in statement, if not in immediate action. No matter how poorly they executed their punishments and nerfs, I was never unclear about how they wanted the AE used (or not used), and I found ludicrous the people who tried to defend their farming, even though personally had zero problem with them doing it.

Since I choose not to conclude that a significant proportion of our players are shallow and childish (perhaps a poor decision, but one I stand by), I don't accept that this alone explains any exodus.


Uber can you please refrain form the 'shallow' and 'childish' remarks.

I've been nothing but polite in my posts in here.

I stopped playing directly because of MA. Instead of normal, new content we got MA instead. The lack of new content added to the glut of power levelers put me off the game for a long time - and I certainly wasn't alone in feeling that way.

What really annoyed me - and others - is that we warned the devs that MA would be open to abuse before it came out.

Once it was released we again let them know in no uncertain terms that it was being abused and was doing the game irreparable harm.

No one cared and I was essentially shouted down on the forums.

I don't think I can access my posts back to 2009, but believe me I was as angry then about it as I am now.

The most annoying thing is that there was no need for MA in the first place.

What players wanted was new content - zones, enemies, arcs.


Another Fan ..... Not sure what you're on about. The revenue figures tell a story that's hard to ignore.

Not Rhino .... Don't feel sorry me. Feel sorry for all of us, because MA undoubtedly helped to put the game in this position .....


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
... MA undoubtedly helped to put the game in this position .....


That seems unlikely. The MA had flaws but it probably sustained as many players as it drove away.


 

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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
That seems unlikely. The MA had flaws but it probably sustained as many players as it drove away.
I take it you haven't seen the revenue chart in this thread?

Game revenue took a dive directly after MA was released.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
I take it you haven't seen the revenue chart in this thread?

Game revenue took a dive directly after MA was released.
Did you just, like, ignore everything everyone in this thread said? 'Cause it sure as hell seems like it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
I take it you haven't seen the revenue chart in this thread?

Game revenue took a dive directly after MA was released.

Yes I have seen it. It's a chart. The chart requires interpretation. It is not a slam dunk case.


I could as easily point to the following:

- At that time, it had become very clear that the PVP Issue 13 changes were a disaster, and PVP was not going to be revisited (in Issue 14 or any time later). This much pretty much sealed the deal on PVP in this game forever.

- Part of the reason the MA was implemented in the first place was to one-up CO's "arch nemesis" feature, because CO was considered a major threat.


The MA was not a total success, but saying that it had more impact on the game than PVP or ED or the release of DCUO/CO or any of other of dozens of things based on a chart and a personal dislike for a game feature is not enough to make an airtight case.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post

Another Fan ..... Not sure what you're on about. The revenue figures tell a story that's hard to ignore.
What you are doing is like what psychics do but in reverse. You are matching an effect to the particular cause you want.

I could just as easily say PvP changes killed the game and it is just as valid as your conclusion. There were many things going on in that time frame and many many problems in the game. You consider AE a real annoyance ? There were people around that were certain the market killed the game, that high end loot killed game, that the incarnate system, that the merit changes, you name it someone is certain it killed the game.

It's like you are looking at the death toll from the World Wars and saying the German love of Sauerbraten did it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra_Man View Post
Uber can you please refrain form the 'shallow' and 'childish' remarks.

I've been nothing but polite in my posts in here.
No, because I shouldn't have been insulting anyone.

Read what I said.

Quote:
I stopped playing directly because of MA. Instead of normal, new content we got MA instead. The lack of new content added to the glut of power levelers put me off the game for a long time - and I certainly wasn't alone in feeling that way.
Thank you for supporting the point you seem to have overlooked. You didn't quit because of the AE. You quit because the AE was the successor to something else you already were unhappy about.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

I actually signed up for City of Heroes because of Issue 14: Mission Architect. In childhood, I always appropriated toys for my own fantastical universes and learned how to write my own adventure games in Basic (sometimes I wonder how life would have turned out if I had continued learning how to program). I didn't just read comics, I created my own comic book characters. Captain-Electric and several other characters have had long lives. I used to play a computer game by pre-evil Electronic Arts named Adventure Construction Set, that let me design my own worlds, quests, and characters. I loved it.

I waited many, many years for CRPGs to get back around to my dream game--one that let you participate in its creation. Years later, I learned how to emulate an Ultima Online server, but not for the reason you might expect (I still paid to play the official servers): I learned enough JavaScript to appropriate the engine for my own single-player Britannia, filled with custom gumps, characters and chained-together quest-lines. Only one other person ever played any adventures in my Ultima: Forgotten Tales world, an emulator engineer from Brazil who used to help me with troubleshooting. But they loved it. Good enough for me!

Mission Architect brought me in, but it would be a year before I picked it up. Instead I found friends, a dev team, and official story arcs that lured me into their official game world like no one has since my first year in Ultima Online; and also got me back into reading comics, which has added much enjoyment to bedtime reading for three years now.

For the past couple of years, Architect has added immensely to my play experience. This system brought me to City of Heroes, and I'd say it represents at least 1/3 of the reasons I stuck around. I was lucky enough to befriend a couple of players whose talent for creating stories has put them firmly among my favorite comic book authors, despite this being "a game". Several other authors also adorn my list of favorite talent, many of them largely undiscovered and with few ratings. I have SO many architect tickets and I never "farmed" for any of them. They're all from playing stories for the story's sake.

When one of my friends greatest works yet, a massive story arc trilogy pitting heroes against an unexpected Axis America invasion, was due out around the same time as the new Pandora's Box SSA, I realized I was actually looking forward to his arc more; which is saying something, considering I was REALLY looking forward to the new SSA. And that's when it hit me: this was another great first in gaming for me--fans becoming huge fans of other players content within mainstream MMORPGs--so much so that if he had been accepting donations, I would have opened my wallet.

The worst mistake Paragon made was to confuse the system's initial player reaction for an overall failure of the idea itself. Mission Architect should have blossomed over successive issues, giving players the power to create (and the power to reward, even if those rewards were particular to instanced Mission Architect content) their audiences with increasingly mind-blowing special effects tricks, worlds, maps, access-points (beyond the AE building's rather unimmersive access point), and multiple NPC contacts, contact chains and complex mission trees.

Other games have picked up the torch, and games will continue to pick up the torch, but it was a sad thing to see a great system with so much potential receive so little care after its creation. Still, it was amazing to see what my favorite authors did with so little. We created worlds.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric View Post
Other games have picked up the torch, and games will continue to pick up the torch, but it was a sad thing to see a great system with so much potential receive so little care after its creation. Still, it was amazing to see what my favorite authors did with so little. We created worlds.
Follow through is everything and that always seemed to be lacking with this game. It's one thing to have a great idea, it's another to get it working, it's something entirely else to perfect it. Look at microsoft products, IE 1-5, Windows 1-3. You have to keep at things till you get it right.