Imitation is Flattery, up until when?

Okay, sticky conversation warning. Please be kind.

To start, I am an artist. Yes, old school pencil, charcoal, ink wash, and oil paint. Not a "great artiste" but in theory I have been shown how to apply the pretty stuff to the flat areas. So my interest in the topic of imitation is very broad, and wide ranging conversation on re-use of ideas is welcomed. Kind of the "Am I inspired or did I just steal this?" conversation.

Say I want to make a character very similar to an iconic Super. Let's go with Superman. (Please note, I am not doing this. I wouldn't for various reasons. It has more to do with the character doing nothing for me than anything else. I got my share of SS/Invul characters, and NONE of them are tributes to that guy. No offense intended.) But Superman keeps the conversation easy, in that he is almost a Platonic ideal of a Super. At what point am I "stealing" artistically and (50% of the topic here) bringing any liability onto City of Heroes by playing my "tribute". And, conversely and more importantly, how far can I push the boundary and still be grooving on my "SuperManBearPig" and be okay. (Yes, I know that is a South Park rip-off, roll with it. I am not using it, pretend I made it up for this discussion.)

So, let's get to the nuts and bolts. For the "tribute" character, can you copy 75% of the outfit. I think with our SuperManBearPig example you can actually get about 90% to 95% of the look, missing mostly just the emblem and belt buckle right? Although I have seen various Superman belts and a decent sub is available in game. I would go with the chest emblem and the distinctive boot edging are going to be problematic, other than that it would be an easy copy.

I do not encourage this, only for discussion purposes. But let us discuss. How far off of this image do you need to be for it to be creatively (important to me) and inoffensive to corporations (important to NCsoft.) Again, the conversation has two main thrusts, finding out what is cool artistically, and finding out what is cool with actually doing in game without agroing the powers that be and taking their time away from getting me my danged Bio armor. Thank you in advance for your kind replies.

Well, the main response (and the way I play these kinds of ideas) is this.

I have a level 50 SS/Inv Brute. Her name is Liberteene. Her costumes are, in order:

- Traditional four-color (red/white/blue/gold) unique look (Liberty Bell emblem on chest)
- Supergirl tribute (Liberty Bell instead of S shield)
- Ms. Marvel tribute (Again, with the bell emblem)
- Ms. Marvel as Binary tribute (same deal)
- Armored version of costume #1

I don't play in the same costume all the time, and some of them use different animations/auras/power colors, etc.

There's a *huge* difference between that and those same costumes on a "Carel Danvors" or "Sooperchick" or "Carrie Zor-Ell" or something like that. If it's obvious to the GM that your character is a direct rip-off in name and costume (and sometimes, they're ballsy enough to put it in the bio as well), you will be generic'd. Especially if other players petition you first, which I do as often as I can, because I have no tolerance for laziness and blatant disregard for the EULA.

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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

Short answer: Whatever a GM who may theoretically review your character deems is "crossing the line."

There's no hard-set rules about what is "too close" to infringement, it's dealt with on a case-by-case basis, typically when a character is petitioned. And when a petition occurs, it seems they do tend to swing the generic-hammer pretty liberally. Your best bet is just to create a character that's not liable to be petitioned, because no one here will be able to say "This is the line in the sand. Don't cross that and you're ok." It really is up to the GMs.

Your imitation of Superman is generally going to be more of an out and out copy if several, if not all, of the following apply:

1) Named some variation of Super and/or man, Kent, Clark, Kal, -El. With an occupation in the journalism field of some sort.
2) Blue tights with a red cape for your primary costume
3) Some type of heavy hitting brusieresque powersets.
4) Holds himself as a shinning pillar of humanity, basically acts like a hero's hero.
5) Bio includes any reference to a spunky newsgirl, newspaper that character works for, archnemesis who's either a mad scientist or corrupt executive etc.


So you don't need to have every point on that list, but if you have more than 1 you're probably getting pretty close to being more of a straight up copy than a tribute.

Honnestly, in a game like City Of Heroes I don't consider copies or homages of any kind really creative, I personally dislike them a lot, and since you're not allowed them to play in game, even problematic for people who ignore the rules. And don't bother to make an own costume. CoH has one of the most expanded character creations I know of, clicking the random button alone can sometimes bring up surprisingly good costumes.

However, I do understand that if you like a certain hero or idol, that you want it in game. In fact, it's an honour for the companies that made that character in my eyes, that people try to mimic it. (again, I do not think it is creative at all) But for me, in order not to think "Another copy..." you'ld have to make a costume that doesn't look like an exact copy at all, yet of course, somehow tells you "hey, it's inspired by that hero".

This can be done by probably giving it a look from another origin (making it more high-tech, more arcane, less tight-ish, more tight-ish), changing colours, adding/removing things.

If you make some kind of copy/homage, I think it should have a personal touch that really makes you see the difference between the original costume and your own version of it in game. Just straight copies wont get any compliments from me (how hard people worked on it, I'm sorry, I just don't think it's creative). Another thing is creating a costume inspired from an (iconic) hero, where you start with the inspired idea of that costume and really go your own way. Sometimes ending up with a completely different costume.

Of course, this is personal.

Nice replies so far. Very thoughtful and thought provoking. I like this type of dialogue and regularly engage in it before a project. It is like getting the benefit of a critique in the weeks before you do the work and actually have your art hanging on a wall and have to defend it lol. Thank you all.

I had a conversation with Troy Hickmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan (aka Pantsless One) awhile back. I won't copy the PM here but the gist of what he said is that there is a "tribute" element that might fly, but you have to be able to differentiate from the original source. For example, I was working on a Calvin & Hobbes arc and couldn't use C&H, Roslyn's name and so on. Troy let know in no uncertain terms that some artists are extremely protective of their brand and that Watterson was one of them, so...that arc stayed in storage from then on.

I have an homage to Walter Sobchak (from The Big Lebowski) on Infinity red. Same beard, glasses, weight, vest and shirt even got the shepherd pet (I can't board it, it's a shepherd, it has papers!) and Dual Pistols of course. Have a bunch of macros that spout sayings from the movie. It's not been genericed because the name (Mark It Zero) isn't Walter Sobchak, it's not offensive and while the homage will get picked up by alter movie-goers, nowhere near as obvious as a big "S" across your chest.

TLDR:

Be especially careful of copying/imitating source material that's well protected, tweak until you "know" it's an homage that won't get picked up by GMs.

I'd go with at least 50%/75% different for safety's sake. That's what I did with MY Superman thought experiment. I was like, the idea of Superman, but for a teenage girl from China.

Okay, after reading some of the great responses I was like. Cool, it's definitely derivative, but if I do X modification to backstory and costume (let's say robotic for conversation sake) then I will have taken this and owned it. And the name is different. So, boom. Here is why I chose SuperMan for the Platonic Conversation, guess what, there has been a "Robotic Superman". In cases like this is there no way to get far enough away from the source material, or am I looking at it wrong?

This is a situation that cries for metaphor:

If you make a green-skinned SS/INV with Phase Shift named the "Venusian Dude Hunter" it will be genericed.

If you make a character named Invulnerable Chick who has a red, blue and yellow costume, it may or may not be.

If you do what I did, you won't be.

TL;DR: If it looks like too much of a copycat, it'll get generic'd. Watch the name and the bio, mostly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EarthWyrm But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

Okay, this thread has been very constructive. I'm feeling safe. Let me lay it on the table, then you can pull the floor away and I'll see it was all a villainous trap!

Anyways, as I mentioned, I do some art. Most all of my art centers around my "issues" with mortality. So, I do a lot of undead, vampire, zombie, brain in jar stuff in the cities. Also, undead robots, Liches, you know, all the ways of "cheating" death.

Well, yesterday on the boards I saw someone post a picture of Skeletor. Now, I am old, but I was just a touch too old for the Masters of the Universe stuff. I have always looked down on it as "low rent." However, that picture of Skeletor had me just about rolling. It is cheese-zey. Did I mention I love cheese?

So, I looked around and figured Dark/Invul Scrapper, and made up a costume, and ran a couple DFBs. THen I got to thinking how much I liked the concept, deleted the character, and re-skinned a stalled 48 Dark/Invul Brute stalled for 2 years, bopped it back and forth across servers for a free rename, and there ya go. 50'd it on an ITF last night.

Now the characters name is Skulz (had the name saved on a level 10 Blaster for the last year. Couldn't get Skuls, but ya know. Important note, the name is a tribute to CoH history, and also connected to my death art.) and the power sets are ones I love, the costume is cheesy. You cannot get a "perfect" match on the costume, because you cannot get shinguards without boots. Also, as I have learned, Skeletor has had a few incarnations himself, muddying the waters. I was going to make him a Robotic/Lich, then found that Skeletor did a stint with Cybernetic Enhancements (He was getting old, and ...nvm) Anyways, thats where I am with him now. Any read on what side of the line I am on? ((Oh, his backstory is he was a Paladin that hunted undead and was cursed by a VERY powerful Necromancer to be an undead forever.)) But the costume is really derivative, did I mention I love skulls and cheese? (For instance, that last sentence has me wanting to paint a memento mori with skull, cheese, candle)

If you want to really amuse yourself combine homages in a parody character. As an example of what I mean, here's a really old bio I made that references several pop culture icons without copying any of them:





I also made several costumes for her and switch frequently, so you can include or exclude parts to match different lines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

That's brilliant. And the name...wow grats!. Also, i have a tendency to run characters that are orphans raised by space pirates. My wife (main and favorite storyteller) has a fascination with characters dependent NPCs. Very very useful, unfortunately.

Artist you say...
Have you voted here, or even been to the 606 yet?

One --> Artz Giveaway <-- To Rule Them ALL!

I will settle this. ORANGE FTW! - Ex Libris

Skeletor is a tough call, because he's just a skull in a hood. That's a pretty basic costume and any Death-related character would be thematically correct in choosing the same look. In Skeletor's case, it would come down to his bio, his name, and just how closely he matched in his other costume elements.

However; as has been mentioned, the line in the sand is determined solely by the judgement of the GM who responds to a petition (or who accidentally happens to be in the right place at the right time to encounter your character). If you managed to get petitioned in the first place then you've probably already crossed the line, when you get down to it.

That's the thing, see. A petition is an active response by another player. Assuming they don't just hate you and are doing it maliciously, then your clone/homage had to be so close to the original that someone was prompted to stop what they were doing, consider the ramifications of such a clone existing (For players new to the game since Freedom, this can and has meant lawsuits from a comic publisher), and then decided to invest the energy into sending the petition and writing a sentence or two about why they sent it.

Instead of asking yourself, "What will the studio let me get away with?" you should be asking, "What will my fellow players consider interesting and recognizable without judging it to be an imagination-less copy worthy of reporting for endangering the game?"

Because of the Marvel Comics lawsuit back in the day, some players take the approach that any small percentage of homage is questionable and they automatically petition it on the theory of "shooting them all and letting the GM's sort it out". Most are more forgiving, particularly if the homage in question shows some wit and creativity as opposed to being a straight-up copy.

In other words, there's no guideline; you're dealing with human nature and if you insist on making a homage character then do it with the expectation of being examined and possibly genericed. You can't predict how any particular person will react, and the studio's minions are required to err on the side of caution because for them it's a question of legality and copyright/trademark violation, not a question of creativity or the lack thereof. For the rest of us, it's more a question of whether we'll point and laugh at you for your copycatting. If you can deal with THAT, then it's all good. ;-)

I think the main things you have to watch are the name and the costume - those are the most significant (and visible) indicators that it's a rip-off/tribute character. Stuff like bio and powersets, eh, I don't think there'll be many petitions based solely on them, and I doubt many GMs will generic based solely on them either (though you can never be *sure*). They're probably more contributing factors only when the name or costume are only borderline. That is to say, if your costume is clearly meant to be Superman, no backstory in the world is going to save you from that eventual (but inevitable) petition and subsequent GM action. But if only the backstory's a rip-off, I doubt many would bother to petition (and I'm not even sure if GM's bother to wipe such backstories).

In your specific example, if you'd gone for, say, "Skulletor" that'd probably be asking for trouble. "Skulz" sounds pretty safe to me (especially with the in-game joke about Skuls). So then it's just down to how similar your costume is to the actual Skeletor. If you've given him blue skin, a hood, and not a lot else, then watch out. But if the only real similarity is a general theme of skulls and cheesiness, you're probably ok.

I've got my own cheesy skull-themed villain (the imaginatively named, "Lord Skull"), but I'm not at all concerned about genericing (and he's survived since CoV launch so far) because besides a skull for a head he doesn't really look anything like Skeletor (despite his primary costume being blue).

Yeah, I am going back into costume editor tonight it looks like. (Hey, I love it anyways lol) I am going to experiment with a few possible ideas I have for non hooded versions. In truth, I have some good ideas, but do not think any of them will make the cut. But I'll try them all. So, with the hood back on I will be making some serious changes to the body, trying to maintain the clean overall lines that say giant guy with a skull head, yet owning the concept as something way different than Skeletor. After all, what I really love about Skeletor is just how stupid he looks as a Skull on a Conan body. Everything else about that franchise (carton, quality, movie, tv series, other comic version, wow, could they actually have put out more drech with less talent? They are definitely up to taking that challenge it seems...) I freaking hate. It would be kind to call Skeletor a "D" lister. So, I will grab the part of it I like and disassociate fast.

Still, when I look at it, I know, you know, everyone knows, it's a skull on a giant body. Everybody thinks Skeletor at some point.