Dear Rednames - I'll make you a deal...
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-31 08:22 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Marketing isn't to blame, you want to look at your fellow players. They're the ones who for years have complained about playing second banana to the Freedom Phalanx, to being lapdogs to Recluse and his Inner Circle. The only thing that's changed is that the devs are now listening to the players.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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And IMHO they've got it right. You can choose to not run Incarnate stuff if you feel it makes you too powerful. You can run Incarnate stuff and choose not to use Incarnate powers too. You can even pretend the Incarnate powers aren't Incarnate powers and just an extension of your already existing (but maturing) power base.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Marketing isn't to blame, you want to look at your fellow players. They're the ones who for years have complained about playing second banana to the Freedom Phalanx, to being lapdogs to Recluse and his Inner Circle. The only thing that's changed is that the devs are now listening to the players.
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Personally, I don't think I've bothered reading any mission text since about the second year of this game, I'd rather just blow stuff up, but to each their own.
Make a man a fire and keep him warm for the day, SET a man on fire and keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Incarnates: K'lir(Fire/Dark Corr):Hot-House Flower(Plant/Fire Dom):Kinrad X(Kin/Rad Def):Itsy-Bitsy Spider(Crab):Two Ton Tony(Mace/WP Broot):Teeny Weeny Widow(Fortunata/Widow) : Zeroth Law (Ice/Fire Tank)
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The only place that things aren't 100% player-oriented is redside, and admittedly the devs are getting much better at writing villainous content. Unfortunately we keep getting dished as heroes at the last minute (looking at you, SSA1).
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
Marketing isn't to blame, you want to look at your fellow players. They're the ones who for years have complained about playing second banana to the Freedom Phalanx, to being lapdogs to Recluse and his Inner Circle. The only thing that's changed is that the devs are now listening to the players.
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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You can pretend your character is a magical pony who solves problems not with violence but by winning over the hearts of evildoers with his unique blend of family-oriented humor too, but gluing feathers on a rat doesn't make it a swan.| You can even pretend the Incarnate powers aren't Incarnate powers and just an extension of your already existing (but maturing) power base. |
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| Nowadays, as a player I'm having my ego stroked constantly by the game showing me just how useless the Freedom Phalanx is and how wonderful everyone thinks it is that my character is there to clean up their messes. This is not having the effect that I think you intended it to have. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
First thing that popped into my head, must stop reading forums before coffee.
Listen, and understand. The Devs are out there. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop...
<I kid, I kid>
The problem has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not "they're listening to the players".
The point is, as I read it, that we're being made "The best heroes" not by playing up our accomplishments and making us essentially equal to the Freedom Phalanx, someone worthy of joining them (whether or not our characters actually would is not the issue), but by instead simply making the Freedom Phalanx a bunch of bumbling fools who can't tie their shoes without my character's help.
I loved when my hero got to fight beside the Freedom Phalanx and especially beside Statesman, because my character looked up to them. I was excited when I started fighting with and against the big NPCs, the ones who appeared on the pre-Freedom loading screens (both heroes and villains), because I felt my character had really "made it" then.
I don't get that feeling from the SSA arcs. (Except at the end of the Patron Arc redside, after I've handed by patron and Lord Recluse their tooshies and they both acknowledge me as their equal)
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Way to **** on the thread, Venture.|
Originally Posted by Venture
You can pretend your character is a magical pony who solves problems not with violence but by winning over the hearts of evildoers with his unique blend of family-oriented humor too, but gluing feathers on a rat doesn't make it a swan.
I've said since the Dean MacArthur arc, which started this miserable trend, that having the Contacts act like the PC's fluffer comes off like this. It has not improved with age. |
Also speak for yourself, Dean MacArthur is the start of a much better trend in redside writing, unless you actually enjoy being Arachnos's errand boy all the damn time.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Its true though, you can choose to not use incarnate powers or play them as you just getting stronger normally. As for the general public treating you like the best hero ever... well, you are. In the last SSA statesman was killed by Wade, and then you beat up Rulawade, who was Wade combined with a dimension eating monstrosity. This basically makes you stronger than Statesman, and everyone knows it.
I don't mind there being iconic heroes and villains in the game, as long as I can beat the tar out of them and potentially get a badge for doing so.
What rankles me is stuff like SSA 2.1, where it was ALL PENNY ALL THE TIME and that detracted from telling us more about the Pandora's Box storyline.
Besides, VIP players with inventions and Incarnates are miles ahead of the toughest NPCs. Remember when Lord Recluse Strike Force was hard? Now it's "Barrier x 2, Clarion, Ageless, Judgment go!!!" and they fall down ridiculously fast.
I'd rather have an Incarnate Powers: On Off switch on level 50 content than having mobs be obsequious to me.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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Well, at first it was just Statesman that was disdained. It does not improve things to be an equal-opportunity disdainer of the rest as well. |
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Seriously - Just stop running down the signature heroes. It's not necessary and it's detracting from my enjoyment of the game.
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Originally Posted by Kinrad
You can even pretend the Incarnate powers aren't Incarnate powers and just an extension of your already existing (but maturing) power base.
Personally, I don't think I've bothered reading any mission text since about the second year of this game, I'd rather just blow stuff up, but to each their own. |
The Devs have made some horrible, unforced errors in their storylines. Hopefully they are datamining and see that I, going on 8 years of subscription, don't bother with the objectionable storylines. Sure, I could "pretend" what the Devs say is the situation is in the story is really not the situation, but I could also pretend that a song about abusing a girlfriend is actually about My Little Pony... but it isn't, and I don't. Just my personal preference.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Your anger is misdirected. As one of the chief proponents of having my ego stroked, I have the exact same complaint as yours - stop dragging the signature heroes through the mid. Making Superman look bad so you can make Batman look good is the equivalent of stealing from Jack to pay Jill - nobody wills, and I just feel dirty. Why? Because someone at Marketing interpreted my desire to NOT have my characters play second fiddle as carte blanche to humiliate or outright MURDER the signature characters. I didn't want to see the signature characters defaced. That's not a good way to make me "bigger" than them. I've not become bigger at all, they're just now not worthy of my respect, which defeats the point of wanting to be bigger than them in the first place. I'm bigger than the Skulls, too, but that's not as fulfilling, is it?|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Nowadays, as a player I'm having my ego stroked constantly by the game showing me just how useless the Freedom Phalanx is and how wonderful everyone thinks it is that my character is there to clean up their messes. This is not having the effect that I think you intended it to have.
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Pandering to players' egos is a good thing, but only if it's done right. We need characters who stand strong and tall because we need characters to respect, and we need characters to respect so that surpassing them is a meaningful objective. All humiliating the signature characters and "bringing them down to our level" does is make them not worth competing with. People say "shoot for the sky," but how much of an achievement would it be if the sky were to simply fall down to Earth? What satisfaction is there in being the one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind?
The very real mistake our story-writers keep making is being unable to tell the difference between asking to be greater than the great and in response being made the person who sucks the least. This is the exact reason why to this day, I maintain that SSA1.7 is the least horrible of the SSA1 series. And we all know how big of a compliment that is. Tell me, then, how much of a compliment it is for player characters to be praised as the least worthless of them all.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It makes you stronger than Statesman as long as Penny Yin is around to keep you from being vaporized several times. And as long as Wade doesn't happen to have your particular variety of kryptonite handy.
| In the last SSA statesman was killed by Wade, and then you beat up Rulawade, who was Wade combined with a dimension eating monstrosity. This basically makes you stronger than Statesman, and everyone knows it. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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You are quite right, Sam. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The very real mistake our story-writers keep making is being unable to tell the difference between asking to be greater than the great and in response being made the person who sucks the least. This is the exact reason why to this day, I maintain that SSA1.7 is the least horrible of the SSA1 series. And we all know how big of a compliment that is. Tell me, then, how much of a compliment it is for player characters to be praised as the least worthless of them all.
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The way to proceed is to have us do greater things than the great heroes of the past and thus take our place of prominence in the pantheon of great heroes.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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You don't have to be more powerful to not play second banana.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Marketing isn't to blame, you want to look at your fellow players. They're the ones who for years have complained about playing second banana to the Freedom Phalanx, to being lapdogs to Recluse and his Inner Circle. The only thing that's changed is that the devs are now listening to the players.
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Let's take the D.C. Universe. Superman is the head honcho, the big cheese, the heavy hitter of all heavy hitters. Now take Green Arrow, he shoots stuff, or Wildcat, he punches people, or Black Canary, she throws people around and screams really loud. Put them with Superman on a task, unless it's really bizarrely twisted, and there might as well just be Superman.
But most of their stories don't include Superman. Arrow, Canary, and Wildcat are fighting in the streets while Superman is off in metropolis or offworld dealing with some cosmic threat. When they do show up, the hero of the story has done the hard work of putting it together, and Superman shows up at the end to help put the hero's plan into place.
In game, compare SSA1, Who Will Die (most of it) vs. the latest incarnation of the Maria Jenkins arc. In SSA, the Freedom Phalanx are running the show, making the hard decisions, you're along to handle the little stuff or to observe. We are the second bananna, at best.
But for Maria Jenkins arc, it's your investigation, you're the one putting the pieces together, driving things. The Freedom Phalanx members who show up are just there to lend a hand. Even there, it may be a little overdone, but they're there to help out what you're doing.
SSA2 does go too far the other way, though I don't find it problematically so. Not only was SSA1 Freedom Phalanx's story, but they messed up. So they're getting their sea legs under them, not as well organized as they could be, and their rep needs some rebuilding. I hope it stops with SSA2, that again there's a nice solid Freedom Phalanx at the end who is ready to be the city's first line of offense.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
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Power levels are not the point. The depiction of the power levels is the point. |
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Its true though, you can choose to not use incarnate powers or play them as you just getting stronger normally. As for the general public treating you like the best hero ever... well, you are. In the last SSA statesman was killed by Wade, and then you beat up Rulawade, who was Wade combined with a dimension eating monstrosity. This basically makes you stronger than Statesman, and everyone knows it.
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The method in vogue at the moment is to depict over and over again how the Freedom Phalanx and other signature heroes fail, followed by the player hero swooping in and saving the day, and then the contact telling you how wonderful your character is and how disappointing the signature characters are.
It's about story telling, not power levels.
An equivalent villain story would be that Recluse tries to rob the First Bank of Paragon City, and Longbow captures him so the player villain has to come in, kick Longbow's posterior and walk out with Recluse and the money. Recluse then says "Thanks, $Player, you're so strong and villainous, that I don't know what I'd do if you weren't around to save me."
How likely is that to happen, do you think?
So, why does it keep happening over and over blueside? It doesn't need to. The game can acknowledge the PC's strength and accomplishments without simultaneously tearing down the signature characters by way of shortening the yardstick, as it were.
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Longbow would probably give the player villain a call and ask them to help subdue Recluse for the greater good in exchange for an Incarnate Slot.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
An equivalent villain story would be that Recluse tries to rob the First Bank of Paragon City, and Longbow captures him so the player villain has to come in, kick Longbow's posterior and walk out with Recluse and the money. Recluse then says "Thanks, $Player, you're so strong and villainous, that I don't know what I'd do if you weren't around to save me."
How likely is that to happen, do you think? |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
you beat up two friggin world destroyers, why the hell would anyone not kiss up to you
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Yeah, This could easily be done. Situations don't always have to be "Ogawd! Captain Commando we need you now! THey've captured and defeated everyone!" I mean, things like "WE need you to help Ctiadel distract the giant robot, while Manticore and positron go and disable it's remote control generator". I mean, the "Goal" Of this game to me, has been to be on the same level as guys like the freedom phalanx, or past heroes like Atlas. Not to become the overpowered godbeast that solves things by looking at it.
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The game can acknowledge the PC's strength and accomplishments without simultaneously tearing down the signature characters by way of shortening the yardstick, as it were. |
Ok, yea, making the signature heroes get beaten up by empowered trolls was going a little too far. Especially since said trolls weren't that powerful.
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You are obviously doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by Venture
gluing feathers on a rat doesn't make it a swan.
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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Originally Posted by Kirsten
You are obviously doing it wrong.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Ok, you got me, I laughed |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Longbow would probably give the player villain a call and ask them to help subdue Recluse for the greater good in exchange for an Incarnate Slot.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Longbow would probably give the player villain a call and ask them to help subdue Recluse for the greater good in exchange for an Incarnate Slot.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Ok, you got me, I laughed
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
After reading through this thread, I was suddenly struck with a conspiracy theory...
You guys make it sound like Nemesis is pumping the Phalanx's Fort Trident with some really, REALLY good hash...
It's Nemesis Pot!
Positron: "Duuuuuude... Buddy! You gonna... Like... Save the world? Or somethin'?"
Penelope Yin: "You're AWE-some!" *starts eating the fern in the corner*
You: "This... This isn't right..."
Synapse: *passed out and grinning from hyperventilating the "gas"*
You: "I... Gotta go..."
My Stories
Look at that. A full-grown woman pulling off pigtails. Her crazy is off the charts.
I'll promise to try all of the content, and do it with an open mind, as free of pre-judgment as I'm able. I'll refrain from knee-jerk reactions based on the differences between what the game is and what I wish it would be, and I'll try to give a fair and even-handed chance to all of the content, even the stuff that I just patently don't like.
Just, please, stop. Stop kissing up to my characters. It's become unseemly.
I get that your marketing department decided to buy into the whole "no NPC should be more powerful than ME" line of thought. Fine. I suppose you've got some kind of reliable marketing data that predicts that to be a successful strategy.
What you seem to have forgotten, though, is that while there is a faction of players who can't stand the thought of anyone else being Numero Uno, there is also a significant faction of players who enjoy having an ideal to strive for. There are precious few such ideals and role models in Paragon City these days. The current game is all about acquiring power until, apparently, you acquire Ultimate Power and become a deity yourself.
My characters generally don't care about Godhead. They care about leaving the world a little better off than they found it, and maybe finding a restaurant that serves a really good cheese pizza.
Nowadays, as a player I'm having my ego stroked constantly by the game showing me just how useless the Freedom Phalanx is and how wonderful everyone thinks it is that my character is there to clean up their messes. This is not having the effect that I think you intended it to have.
When Grandma Wavelength tells me how proud she is of me, with my college education and six-figure salary, and how disappointed she is in poor bumbling Cousin Raymond with his assistant manager job at McDonald's and his bumbling slacker friends, it doesn't make me feel good about myself. It makes me feel bad for Cousin Ray; the moreso because he buys into Grandma's feelings and telling me that he doesn't know what he'd do without me there to bail him out.
I don't feel proud and accomplished. I feel like grabbing Ray by the collar and telling him, "Buck up, Man! Who gives a smeg about what Grandma thinks? She married smegging Doctor Doom and now she thinks she's a Vanderbilt. You are Doctor Raymond Smegging Keyes. You shoot anti-matter from your fingertips! You're one of the leading engineers of this or any other age! Have some pride! You think the Statesman was a leader because he was everyone's friend? No! He was everyone's friend because he was a leader! He didn't waste his time trying to make everyone like him. If there isn't someone, somewhere who thinks you're a pompous *** then you're doing it wrong!"
Seriously - Just stop running down the signature heroes. It's not necessary and it's detracting from my enjoyment of the game. I feel like I'm surrounded by this gang of yes-men. "Oh, Artiste! You are so strong,and brave, and heroic! Look, those Trolls somehow beat up Numina who is a smegging ghost, and they tore open Positron's armor like it was paper, but they couldn't even touch you! Can I touch you? Then maybe you can... Well, you're right, you should get to know me better first, but I swear I'm totally worth it..."
I just came off of a six-month stint with Another Big MMO. It was my longets stint with that game and a big reason was that their newest content went out of its way to make the level-capped characters feel heroic. They did it, though, by emphasizing my character's accomplishments, not by comparing all of the signature characters unfavorably to my character. "Hey, Player_Character, we've got a situation here. We're holding the line as best we can, but we're going to fail unless we can find a Big Damn Hero to accomplish this task that will turn the tide. You've proven that you're a Big Damn Hero. I know that you've got other things to do but this may make or break our whole story if we don't get your help."
I felt more heroic running those storylines than I ever felt in one of these recent "Look how much better you are than poor bumbling Cousin Ray" stories. I also felt a lot like a Mother Hen at times, but that was better than feeling like the world was pumping me up by knocking down everything and everyone I might ever have looked up to.
If my heroes want status at all, they want to be equals to the top tier. They want to be invited to the party. They don't give a rat's posterior about setting the bar for top tier and they definitely have zero aspirations towards becoming gods.
I'm not saying I represent everyone, and maybe your marketing data shows that I don't even represent the majority. Here's the thing: that theoretical majority just wants to be "the best". They don't really want to be kissed up to by imaginary characters of pixels and script any more than they wanted to be surpassed by those characters. They just want to be recognized as being the top tier. You can let the PC's raise the bar without having to reduce the existing NPC's to second-stringers who can't carry the football five yards without fumbling.
The people who actively want to spit on Cousin Ray and lord their six-figure salary over him and gloat about his not-quite-blue-collar service industry job are themselves a minority, in my opinion. We shouldn't be catering to them. Doing so is detrimental to the game experience, in my opinion. It certainly is detrimental to MY game experience.
Thanks for listening.