I've been reading through the rules, and power limitations and I'd like to suggest a few things. The main point being, at least voting on Alpha only, or specific incarnates allowed. I understand the sentiment that people grinded and worked hard for their incarnate powers, but bear in mind that nothing released after issue 13 has been made with pvp specifically in mind. Incarnate powers are included in this.
Incarnate powers, weren't made, or scaled in effectiveness to truly be used in pvp, most of them, their effectiveness is the same in pve as it is in pvp. Give or take a few percentages. People could easily do judgement spikes for an easy 1-2 kills, which in a 5v5 could make the difference in winning or losing. Pyronic judgement for instance, has basically a blaze cast time, and does around 300+dmg. Judgement alone severely reduces the skill attributed to acquiring kills in a team setting, this applies not only to Pyronic, but to Ion, that is albeit a bit longer of an animation but still does good dmg.
Destiny isn't any better, allowing a squishy to heal for 1200+ with rebirth, or boost the effectiveness of healing by 80% with incandes, once again detracts from the skill and necessary teamwork of team pvp. Sure Rebirth roots you, and incan is a teleport, but nonetheless, you would see large heals and increased survivability, but the damage of those teams isn't boosted, it remains as a constant. So you would see people almost never dying, with a sub-par emp because of one ability. You can suggest that end drain might be an issue for teams running multiple incans, however, in that case, a team would just bring a storm and cancel the drains, with an O2 boost for over 1000+HP. Or simply bring 20 blues, since our heals from our emp would be well over 1K as well.
Interface is an issue in itself. If lets say, 3 of the damage dealers on the team of 5, each have reactive, and lets say they each land 4 attacks, that is 12. Lets say that they are intelligent and using reactive radial flawless interface, generally speaking, each tick from the dot is around 9-12, thats over 100dmg purely from dot. Thats not really indicative of any skill, that extra dot may earn a team a kill, also each tick potentially reduces dmg resistance, boosting the dmg of the spike slightly.
I feel that I am re-hashing, information that all of you already know, but aren't really thinking through. I fully intend to participate, however, I feel we should at least put this to a vote. As it stands, allowing interface, judgement, and destiny incarnates seems to seriously take away the skill required in team pvp. It would allow sub-par players, to be successful, and only because of a system, made without pvp as its focus. I seriously hope you will consider my proposal. I feel if this is to be a league based on competition, and player skill, which determines the victors, then Alpha only should be the way to go. Thank you.
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Originally Posted by Suffer
I've been reading through the rules, and power limitations and I'd like to suggest a few things. The main point being, at least voting on Alpha only, or specific incarnates allowed. I understand the sentiment that people grinded and worked hard for their incarnate powers, but bear in mind that nothing released after issue 13 has been made with pvp specifically in mind. Incarnate powers are included in this.
Incarnate powers, weren't made, or scaled in effectiveness to truly be used in pvp, most of them, their effectiveness is the same in pve as it is in pvp. Give or take a few percentages. People could easily do judgement spikes for an easy 1-2 kills, which in a 5v5 could make the difference in winning or losing. Pyronic judgement for instance, has basically a blaze cast time, and does around 300+dmg. Judgement alone severely reduces the skill attributed to acquiring kills in a team setting, this applies not only to Pyronic, but to Ion, that is albeit a bit longer of an animation but still does good dmg. Destiny isn't any better, allowing a squishy to heal for 1200+ with rebirth, or boost the effectiveness of healing by 80% with incandes, once again detracts from the skill and necessary teamwork of team pvp. Sure Rebirth roots you, and incan is a teleport, but nonetheless, you would see large heals and increased survivability, but the damage of those teams isn't boosted, it remains as a constant. So you would see people almost never dying, with a sub-par emp because of one ability. You can suggest that end drain might be an issue for teams running multiple incans, however, in that case, a team would just bring a storm and cancel the drains, with an O2 boost for over 1000+HP. Or simply bring 20 blues, since our heals from our emp would be well over 1K as well. Interface is an issue in itself. If lets say, 3 of the damage dealers on the team of 5, each have reactive, and lets say they each land 4 attacks, that is 12. Lets say that they are intelligent and using reactive radial flawless interface, generally speaking, each tick from the dot is around 9-12, thats over 100dmg purely from dot. Thats not really indicative of any skill, that extra dot may earn a team a kill, also each tick potentially reduces dmg resistance, boosting the dmg of the spike slightly. I feel that I am re-hashing, information that all of you already know, but aren't really thinking through. I fully intend to participate, however, I feel we should at least put this to a vote. As it stands, allowing interface, judgement, and destiny incarnates seems to seriously take away the skill required in team pvp. It would allow sub-par players, to be successful, and only because of a system, made without pvp as its focus. I seriously hope you will consider my proposal. I feel if this is to be a league based on competition, and player skill, which determines the victors, then Alpha only should be the way to go. Thank you. |
-^
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lawl good point!!!
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Originally Posted by Neuronia
I think teams may be unlikely to do matches at 1-2 a.m., just saying.
>.> |
I guarantee you limiting incarnate powers to Alpha would increase your attendance. I don't see anybody coming back for this league with almost all of them allowed (as in, people who have quit but might consider it otherwise).
Barring that, I think the next best thing would be to only allow Alpha/Judgement/Interface. Judgement and Interface wouldn't break the game the same way Destiny and Lore would, and it would probably reduce the TTK on average. That means the matches would be much higher scoring on average, which isn't a bad thing imo. 5v5s are probably going to be lower scoring then 8v8s. Inflating the kill counts might make them a bit more exciting.
Also no, this isn't me saying I would join if this were the case. Just my personal opinion.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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From my understanding, reading the above rules and talking to the leaders, it looks as if leaders will be able to -vote- on the rules for each match.|
Originally Posted by The Katalyst
I guarantee you limiting incarnate powers to Alpha would increase your attendance. I don't see anybody coming back for this league with almost all of them allowed (as in, people who have quit but might consider it otherwise).
Barring that, I think the next best thing would be to only allow Alpha/Judgement/Interface. Judgement and Interface wouldn't break the game the same way Destiny and Lore would, and it would probably reduce the TTK on average. That means the matches would be much higher scoring on average, which isn't a bad thing imo. 5v5s are probably going to be lower scoring then 8v8s. Inflating the kill counts might make them a bit more exciting. Also no, this isn't me saying I would join if this were the case. Just my personal opinion. |
That means, as far as I'm concerned, this is pretty much Alpha-only, unless 2 teams specifically want them (Probably won't).
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Yea Frozen Viper and I were talking the other night about a team captain vote. I understand the points made, which are good points, but still have strong feelings countering those points.
For example. There's the argument that to many incans will generate heals almost impossible to break through. But on the other had to much interface and judgement will bring to much dmg to the table. So I guess the way I saw it was don't they sorta balance each other out on a larger scale? I mean, yes everything would be more extreme, but it would be in both directions. And since there hasn't been a league with anything other than alpha only, we thought it would be a new fun thing to try.
Having said that, if a vote for alpha only brings more participation, then, in the spirit of having a bigger league and making everyone more happy, I wouldn't be opposed to that!!
So we DO have an open mind about how things should go, buts lets discuss a little more and get a few more opinions to weigh in =)
@PiP3R
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Nope, because if say I see Sentry getting spiked, I heal him then we Incan in a corner, then his Respites hit for 500+ or something ridiculous for the next two minutes, and that's if we haven't STACKED Incan, in which case it could cast Respites for up to 700-800 per pill. So if you have 3-4 spikers delivering damage, all one of your teammtes needs to do is monitor buff bars, warn about Incan in team chat or Vent/Mumble and lo and behold, we're all super healed, cast RAs and off we go.|
Originally Posted by PiP3R
But on the other had to much interface and judgement will bring to much dmg to the table. So I guess the way I saw it was don't they sorta balance each other out on a larger scale? I
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Interface will add like 7-11 points of damage per tick, Judgment is w/e. None of these powers is needed for decent 5 v 5 play, but especially not Incan as it will make incoming heals just ridiculous. As Xanatos said, 5 incans/3 spikers = 0 to very few kills.
Should definitely be voted on but having been in RV on all Incan teams and even in Arena on all Incan teams, kills are insanely rough to get.
The problem with Interface is the graphical animation is often out of sync with the incoming damage, so you might see Reactive icons before they tick in.
It's just a massive kerfuffle, let's just go Alpha only before the league implodes prior to start.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
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I hadn't thought of that. I didn't see Reactive damage as a huge problem, but it -is- always the first thing I see on my buff bar before a spike.|
Originally Posted by Neuronia
The problem with Interface is the graphical animation is often out of sync with the incoming damage, so you might see Reactive icons before they tick in.
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I don't think judgements would be a problem, if anything it'll counter any teams with MMs.
That being said, if all the previous leagues were alpha-only, I'd trust they knew what they were doing.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Coliseum is a PvP arena map.
This would be the wide arena from the summer event where you fought minotaurs and such...should be interesting to try.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
Free Agent for the moment.
@Heavenly Perverse
Demons/Dark mastermind
Energy/Ninjitsu stalker
Sonic/Radiation Emission corrupter
Might enter own team if the rest of the vent group is interested.
Kill the enemy. Take their souls. Drink their blood.
Is it too late for me to get in this?
@DustMonkey
lvl 50 Claw/Regen scrapper.
Y U LIMIT MAH STALKZ?!
On a serious note, I see a problem with the 8/5 Rebirths going off in a ten minute match or anything else of that nature for that matter. Alphas/Interfaces are fine as they help plug in gaps where needed.
I would still be willing to join the league even if I don't have half of this crap on my toons, but just a fair warning of those that will cry in the near future when they cannot finish off a sloppy spike when a rebirth goes off every two minutes. Most likely will be me, but that is besides the point, I'm sensitive.
Masque is fat.
"I'M THE TARGET! I'M THE TARGET! THE STALKER HAS SHARKS! AP...AP!!"
@Sepultura
'You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.'
@Sepultura
'You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.'
Will there be a vote for what incarnates can be used or has that passed?
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Im interested in see'ing when/where this voting will take place as well.
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Originally Posted by Artic Keeper
Will there be a vote for what incarnates can be used or has that passed?
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Artic and the Chillz - Champion PvP League
Exile - Champion PvPEC 3v3-5v5 League
Exile - Freedom 5v5 PvP League 2012
Exile - Freedumb PvP League 2011
Exile - CAPE PvP League
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I would imagine a 5v5 league would have lower kill counts to begin with (assuming comparison to 8v8, since we haven't done 5v5s post-incarnates) so having people die faster then usual isn't neccesarily a bad thing. I guess what I'm saying is that people like big numbers. If matches are averaging 10-20 kills per team instead of 5-10, they might feel a bit more exciting (I made those numbers up, but you get the point).|
Originally Posted by PiP3R
Yea Frozen Viper and I were talking the other night about a team captain vote. I understand the points made, which are good points, but still have strong feelings countering those points.
For example. There's the argument that to many incans will generate heals almost impossible to break through. But on the other had to much interface and judgement will bring to much dmg to the table. So I guess the way I saw it was don't they sorta balance each other out on a larger scale? I mean, yes everything would be more extreme, but it would be in both directions. And since there hasn't been a league with anything other than alpha only, we thought it would be a new fun thing to try. Having said that, if a vote for alpha only brings more participation, then, in the spirit of having a bigger league and making everyone more happy, I wouldn't be opposed to that!! So we DO have an open mind about how things should go, buts lets discuss a little more and get a few more opinions to weigh in =) @PiP3R |
Conversely, if nobody is dieing (as would definitely be the case with destiny) the matches would probably be pretty boring.
I guess that's mostly just my opinion based on past experience, but I definitely feel like most people would get frustrated and bored with everybody being *that* survivable.
Again, ideally I would definitely advise Alpha only, but interface/judgement would be another decent option. I think out of all the incarnates, they have the most potential to shake up the dynamic a bit in a good way, while I think Hybrid/Lore/Destiny would just make the matches more frustrating and less fun, as well as just straight up breaking the game essentially.
Of course, if you just go the route of captains deciding on rules every match, the problem would probably take care of itself, and this whole discussion kind of becomes moot, as I'm willing to bet most teams would stick with Alpha only given the choice.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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No vote yet Artic. But this should get finally decided asap!! I'm going to touch base with kali just to see how he feels, but I wouldnt be against alpha only. Which ever we decide (alpha only or vote), we should do it now. That way we can start some practices. I see there's already a few crews running around freedom to practice with; and my final members will be back from vaction and stuff next week. So we could maybe even start some 4v4 practices with our team later this week!! Either way, we will be able to officially schedule practices ahead of time next week.|
Originally Posted by Artic Keeper
Will there be a vote for what incarnates can be used or has that passed?
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@PiP3R
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
Alpha only!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
The league is alpha only!!!!!!!!
thank god
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You're welcome.
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Originally Posted by Heater
thank god
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@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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Where is this being held anyway? Test?|
Originally Posted by The Katalyst
You're welcome.
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Hahahaha, jk.
@Ethical Inquiry
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It's a nice thought.
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Originally Posted by Pareto
Where is this being held anyway? Test?
Hahahaha, jk. |
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Things are looking good guys!!
6 solid teams is awesome. I hear there's a seventh getting together, but we'll see. So if there's 6 teams, and each teams battles each other two times during the league, then that's 12 weeks of matches; not bad at all. And all these teams look solid and strong. I'm happy to see this.
Remember, kickoff is Sunday Sept. 9th!! So now is prob the time to start setting up some practices. I'll be in contact with some of u guys to set up some sparing matches n stuff. My team will be practicing every tues and thurs night if anyone wants to coordinate something.
Another thing. In the beginning the roster number was limited to help prevent teams from getting to many ppl and help promote more teams to form. Since the teams are pretty solid at this point, I'm going to talk to Kali about allowing an increase of ppl on each team roster. Some teams have already requested this citing it may help to make sure there's enough teammates on match night and what not. Personally, I see a person in free agents that I would like to pick up if allowed.
Thoughts and opinions on this?? Stay tuned for this decision guys.
Again, awesome to see things coming together the way they are!!
@PiP3R
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I'd vote 9.|
Originally Posted by PiP3R
Things are looking good guys!!
6 solid teams is awesome. I hear there's a seventh getting together, but we'll see. So if there's 6 teams, and each teams battles each other two times during the league, then that's 12 weeks of matches; not bad at all. And all these teams look solid and strong. I'm happy to see this. Remember, kickoff is Sunday Sept. 9th!! So now is prob the time to start setting up some practices. I'll be in contact with some of u guys to set up some sparing matches n stuff. My team will be practicing every tues and thurs night if anyone wants to coordinate something. Another thing. In the beginning the roster number was limited to help prevent teams from getting to many ppl and help promote more teams to form. Since the teams are pretty solid at this point, I'm going to talk to Kali about allowing an increase of ppl on each team roster. Some teams have already requested this citing it may help to make sure there's enough teammates on match night and what not. Personally, I see a person in free agents that I would like to pick up if allowed. Thoughts and opinions on this?? Stay tuned for this decision guys. Again, awesome to see things coming together the way they are!! @PiP3R |
That being said, hear me out. A roster of 9 doesn't mean there is going to be 9 players there every match, with 4 standing there rooting everyone on. I have 2 very close friends who aren't going to be very active during the league. With only a roster of 7, I couldn't include them.
If we were to have a roster of 9, teams could start to include the poor souls that are going to be busy for the majority of it, as well as supply even more diverse options for lineups. A roster of 9 would allow me to fit in some very skilled players that wouldn't be there at all otherwise.
I had considered 8, but since most teams already have a full roster of 7 -and- a lot of players are grouped in 2s (Even free agents), I think 9 would give a lot more freedom.
It would also allow us to adapt some less experienced players, since there's a lot more experienced players if we need them for any special matches. There's no reason to let a newer player practice with us if he's not on our league, and with a league of 7 or 8, I can't take the chance in a match that matters a lot. If we have 9, we can fit in a newer player, and he can practice, fit him in a couple matches or practices.
but, I'm ranting.
I vote 9.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohp_nmI_TFA
SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY...a roster will be unveiled.
Or will it?
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes