Range debuff, at the very least.
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If you are doing fine without it, why ask? If you are finding that people can strip the big bads aggro off of you, you should probably consider it.
Are you trying to drum up some drama? You have been around long enough to have seen this topic show up once or a bazillion times...
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Don't AV's resist it?
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Range debuff, at the very least.
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Because as I stated I haven't used Taunt very much so I figured there was someone that has built a SS/FA/Soul or something similar and seen the difference of Range attacks + Darkest Night for aggro vs Taunt.|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
If you are doing fine without it, why ask? If you are finding that people can strip the big bads aggro off of you, you should probably consider it.
Are you trying to drum up some drama? You have been around long enough to have seen this topic show up once or a bazillion times... |
And why do I ask? Because I am a min / maxer so if I can do something a little better I will.
In my opinion, Taunt is just one more tool to keep in the toolbox, be it for tanks, brutes, or scrappers.
Yes, my characters can always run up and punch something in the face, but if there are villains in the way, or if I've found myself wedged in a corner, Taunt works from a distance -- then again, so do Hurl (for my SS characters) and Gloom, in your case. On the OTHER other hand, Taunt is auto-hit in PvE, unlike Hurl or Gloom, and is "multi-target" for Tanks and Brutes (though I can't seem to find just HOW many targets via Paragon Wiki just now. Five? Six? Something like that.)
While I don't know the specifics of the "famous experiment" (what was it? An Invuln scrapper with extra Taunt IO's in Invincibility and doing a truckload of damage?) I'll go out on a limb and say that in normal play, that's probably the exception rather than the rule. Between Gauntlet, attacks, Taunt and some other little tricks, my tanks and brutes can generally contain most of the aggro in large groups. Scrappers and extra-suicidal blasters are on their own, as they should be. 
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Taunt_%28Status_Effect%29|
Originally Posted by Eldorado
In my opinion, Taunt is just one more tool to keep in the toolbox, be it for tanks, brutes, or scrappers.
Yes, my characters can always run up and punch something in the face, but if there are villains in the way, or if I've found myself wedged in a corner, Taunt works from a distance -- then again, so do Hurl (for my SS characters) and Gloom, in your case. On the OTHER other hand, Taunt is auto-hit in PvE, unlike Hurl or Gloom, and is "multi-target" for Tanks and Brutes (though I can't seem to find just HOW many targets via Paragon Wiki just now. Five? Six? Something like that.) While I don't know the specifics of the "famous experiment" (what was it? An Invuln scrapper with extra Taunt IO's in Invincibility and doing a truckload of damage?) I'll go out on a limb and say that in normal play, that's probably the exception rather than the rule. Between Gauntlet, attacks, Taunt and some other little tricks, my tanks and brutes can generally contain most of the aggro in large groups. Scrappers and extra-suicidal blasters are on their own, as they should be. |
That was the taunt experiment
Taunt is definitely beneficial on trials. It's very helpful for pulling AVs in BAF, and bringing Antimatter to terminals in Keyes, and moving Warworks away from terminals in Keyes, among lots of other things, and simply being able to force several enemies to get close and attack you without even a hit roll is nice. Whether it would be more beneficial than whatever you already have is a more difficult question to answer, and somewhat subjective, but it's definitely a good power.
Taunt sets also have some nice set bonuses, FWIW.
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Thanks for the link! |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
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However, that experiment is over four years old, and "After further testing, Ghost Widow followed the code logic to discover that the game's internal documentation on the subject (supporting the "Taunt overrides Threat" argument) was incorrect."
Does it still work this way? Has it been officially fixed and/or addressed since then?
To try and find out, I just conducted my own experiment: I just dualboxed a tank and a claws/willpower scrapper into a mission together, sent the scrapper on ahead and collected full spawns of [+2/x8] Council with RttC's aura. The scrapper simply stood in the middle of the Council with RttC on, the villains attacked the scrapper, and the tanker was able to pull six of the villains off the scrapper at a time with Taunt.
Then I set the scrapper's Spin attack on "autofire" and tried to pull them off again. RttC PLUS the attack was a bit of a mixed bag -- some of the recently wounded ones were tauntable, pulled off and came to the taunting tank, but some stayed focused on the attacking scrapper. Those that had been first aggroed with RttC but stayed out of claws range (Council Marksmen) all pulled off and came over to the tank.
Based on that, my GUESS is that they've made some adjustments to the Taunt mechanic.
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
-Pulling AVs in BAF.
-Pulling AM in Keyes
-Pulling Warwalkers at 2nd reactor in Keyes
-Efficiently pulling AM between the 3 terminals in final fight in Keyes
-Pulling warworks off terminals in Keyes
-Pulling Voids (penny phase) and nightmares (first and second malaise stages) in MoM
-Pulling IDF away from terminals in TPN
-Hover taunting Maelstrom (prevents him from using marked for death)
-Pulling Warwalker AVs in UGT, and hover tanking in corner for Lichen infested.
-Setbonuses (I would still take taunt even if it didnt do all of the above, Mocking and Zinger are both very good sets pending on what you need.)
Gloom/Dark Oblit can do some of the above, the difference lies alot in maximizing efficiency, speed, and having 100% success. There are some situations where you don't want to have any chance of competing aggro. if someone running by or for whatever reason hits a mob that you need to pull away you don't want to have to compete for that aggro. Moving mobs away from terminals in TPN, for example, is all about speed, the faster you can get them away the faster you the techs can be killed and being able to get 2-3 of the terminals moving asap does make a difference. Similarily there are also things that you cant do without taunt, such as raptor pack tanking certain bosses (maelstrom, warwalkers) or other cases such as nightmares in the tilman phase of mom where you cant afford to lose attention of the nightmares, lest they be killed in the wrong spot or not reach their destination. Having taunt as an extra ranged aggro generator along with dark oblit helps too so that u can pull multiple mobs more quickly (taunt one mob, dark oblit another, then taunt yet another in rapid succession. A brute is a very potent pace setter, the faster you can get things set up the faster everyone else can do their parts.
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Well, RttC has a inherently weak taunt aura. Even tanks have a hard time keeping aggro with it.
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Originally Posted by Eldorado
To try and find out, I just conducted my own experiment: I just dualboxed a tank and a claws/willpower scrapper into a mission together, sent the scrapper on ahead and collected full spawns of [+2/x8] Council with RttC's aura. The scrapper simply stood in the middle of the Council with RttC on, the villains attacked the scrapper, and the tanker was able to pull six of the villains off the scrapper at a time with Taunt.
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I take taunts on my brutes/tanks for a few reasons. One is that they are just more effective if you have to swap aggro for any reason. For example in BAFs, if someone else is tanking an AV and the debuff gets stacked up to 2, I find that throwing a taunt almost always pulls aggro over to me. Now just attacking sometimes does it too, but taunt plus attacking generally makes it certain. Taunt tends to make the timing much more controlled. If both I and another tank/brute are beating on an AV, without Taunt, I can't really make certain that the AV is going to be attacking me at any specific time. With taunt I generally can do that. Taunts are also good for pulling and the range debuff, though those aren't always applicable. Last reason I like to take Taunts is that the taunt IO sets are actually quite good. Both Mocking Beratement and Perfect Zinger have some nice bonuses.
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Originally Posted by Eldorado
Then I set the scrapper's Spin attack on "autofire" and tried to pull them off again.
Based on that, my GUESS is that they've made some adjustments to the Taunt mechanic. |
I wouldn't think so myself. One attack on auto fire doesn't do as much as a full attack chain being actively played by a determined scrapper. Just the fact that you couldn't pull some of the mobs off the scrapper, who was only running RttC, says to me that a scrapper probably could hold all the aggro if they really tried.
Two things confuse me still.
1) Where the wiki says "Attacks made after the Taunt is applied have their Threat multiplied by 1,000 * Duration ... [etc. rest of formula.]" If that's true, how do I pull aggro the first time I taunt? Because I haven't done damage after the Taunt was applied, and yet mobs almost always veer towards my tanker doing the Taunt.
I wonder if the initial Taunt itself is counted as "damage," thus giving the Tanker (or other taunter) a head-start on "damage" by 2,000 - 4,000 points or so.
2) Ditto on the "pull aggro during an AV fight with Taunt." This shouldn't happen on an AV during a long fight. It seems inconceivable that a Tanker could instantly switch aggro from another toon, without doing damge, with just one Taunt, in a long fight, even multiplying by 1000. Yet it seems 100% reliable. I wonder if cumulative damage is what's being multiplied by 1000, not subsequent damage.
I've farmed quite a bit on my ss/fa brute without taunt and foes generally stay in the burn patch whereas on my fire/fire scrapper it's chaos, I'm constantly chasing Lt's around the map.
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The question you are asking is answered in the sentence before the one you're confused about.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
1) Where the wiki says "Attacks made after the Taunt is applied have their Threat multiplied by 1,000 * Duration ... [etc. rest of formula.]" If that's true, how do I pull aggro the first time I taunt? Because I haven't done damage after the Taunt was applied, and yet mobs almost always veer towards my tanker doing the Taunt.
I wonder if the initial Taunt itself is counted as "damage," thus giving the Tanker (or other taunter) a head-start on "damage" by 2,000 - 4,000 points or so. |
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Originally Posted by ParagonWiki
The Taunt power ... counts as an attack, so that hate may be gained with just the damage-less Taunt.
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Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Its because your attacks, and more specifically, blazing aura, have a taunt component on your brute, fire scrappers do not have any taunt component in their damage aura or attacks. I'd go as far as to say its broken game design in that disparity.
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
I've farmed quite a bit on my ss/fa brute without taunt and foes generally stay in the burn patch whereas on my fire/fire scrapper it's chaos, I'm constantly chasing Lt's around the map.
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Taunt is flagged "Enemies will notice this attack", so the mere act of taunting puts you on the aggro list. It also applies a debuff, so that puts you higher on the aggro list right away|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
1) Where the wiki says "Attacks made after the Taunt is applied have their Threat multiplied by 1,000 * Duration ... [etc. rest of formula.]" If that's true, how do I pull aggro the first time I taunt? Because I haven't done damage after the Taunt was applied, and yet mobs almost always veer towards my tanker doing the Taunt.
I wonder if the initial Taunt itself is counted as "damage," thus giving the Tanker (or other taunter) a head-start on "damage" by 2,000 - 4,000 points or so. |
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| 2) Ditto on the "pull aggro during an AV fight with Taunt." This shouldn't happen on an AV during a long fight. It seems inconceivable that a Tanker could instantly switch aggro from another toon, without doing damge, with just one Taunt, in a long fight, even multiplying by 1000. Yet it seems 100% reliable. I wonder if cumulative damage is what's being multiplied by 1000, not subsequent damage. |
@Roderick
I don't think it's broken, I get that scrappers and tanks were designed to fill different rolls and Brutes were formed by the merging of the two, but it seems to work very well on brutes probably because they do more damage than tanks.
taunt is great on any melee if you can fit it. Personal preference though..on a Tank, 100% take it. A brute..I do also..but you can get away without it.
It also helps if YOU (because odds are, they wont comment on it) pat yourself on the back when you save someone with ranged taunt, or do a great pull, or a great taunt-herd.
I'd love for taunt to be an auto power..ranged that is. Off topic a bit..but maybe tankers could get inherent ranged taunt, freeing up a power pick and further specalising them compared to brutes?
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Did you see the Paragon Wiki quote that I referenced in my post that you quoted? THAT was saying that one particular scrapper's RttC was stronger than a tanker's taunt -- hence my experiment that came up with a different result. |
Originally Posted by SmegHead
Well, RttC has a inherently weak taunt aura. Even tanks have a hard time keeping aggro with it.
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Originally Posted by gameboy1234
I wouldn't think so myself. One attack on auto fire doesn't do as much as a full attack chain being actively played by a determined scrapper. Just the fact that you couldn't pull some of the mobs off the scrapper, who was only running RttC, says to me that a scrapper probably could hold all the aggro if they really tried.
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Perhaps I should have put the tank's taunt on autofire and actively played the scrapper instead? I might do that as well since my curiosity is now officially piqued.
Regardless, though, there ARE going to be some psychotic scrappers and suicidal blasters (especially popping inspirations, Buildup and/or Aim] who will simply out-aggro tanks via damage alone. To butcher a famous quote, "you can taunt some of the targets all of the time, and all of the targets some of the time, but you can not taunt all of the targets all of the time."
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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But it's not just the Taunt aura that is doing it. Threat is multiplied by damage, so a weak Taunt+damage is better than a stronger Taunt, usually. Hence, why an attacking Scrapper can pull aggro away from a Tanker that is just taunting. The same can be done in today's game. The Devs haven't changed how taunt works, they just finally understand it a bit better. The know the formula, and have the spreadsheets that detail just how it works. Players can usually get fairly good results with Taunt testing now, but there are still a number of complications that we just don't have the numbers for, so no test will be perfect.
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Originally Posted by Eldorado
Did you see the Paragon Wiki quote that I referenced in my post that you quoted? THAT was saying that one particular scrapper's RttC was stronger than a tanker's taunt -- hence my experiment that came up with a different result.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
The taunt power is wonderful. It is the best aggro gathering tool in the game. Take it, slot it, use it, love it and be loved by your team as a competent meatshield!
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Which should multiply your subsequent damage by 30,000. Yeah I can see that overcoming all damage done to something like an AV.| And 5s after that, your taunt wears off, putting you back to your natural position on the aggro list, while I still have a 30s taunt remaining. |
Thing is, with duration in there too, it seems to me that a Tanker, Brute, etc. without Taunt would never be able to steal aggro from someone who has Taunt. An aura usually only has a few seconds duration, so anyone with Taunt should be able to stay 4x to 10x ahead of anyone else. Assuming they're both playing normally, doing damage, etc.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
The question you are asking is answered in the sentence before the one you're confused about.
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Okay -- that's pretty much what I proved, I thought. This is one of those times where I wonder if everybody's reading the entire thread before posting. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
But it's not just the Taunt aura that is doing it. Threat is multiplied by damage, so a weak Taunt+damage is better than a stronger Taunt, usually. Hence, why an attacking Scrapper can pull aggro away from a Tanker that is just taunting. The same can be done in today's game.
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Referenced Paragon Wiki link: "Castle's post was prompted by Issue 11 testing with a Tanker using Taunt that was unable to pull enemies away from a Willpower Scrapper using Rise to the Challenge."
Now, that DOESN'T say "...from a WP scrapper using Rise to the Challenge AND ATTACKING." Maybe the attacks are to be assumed, even if it doesn't say so? IF that's the case, well, I just wasted my time (and everbody else's) -- and maybe the Wiki entry needs to be updated?
My tanker WAS able to pull enemies away from a WP scrapper who was ONLY using RttC, which at least *I* was expecting.
My tanker was NOT able to pull ALL the enemies away from a WP scrapper who was using RttC and [the admittedly weak auto-fire Spin] attack, which is what it seem like we were all expecting.
Thus, Taunt doesn't appear to be "OMG totally useless" but it's somewhere in the middle of the road.
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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But you have to read the next few sentences as well:|
Originally Posted by Eldorado
Okay -- that's pretty much what I proved, I thought. This is one of those times where I wonder if everybody's reading the entire thread before posting.
Referenced Paragon Wiki link: "Castle's post was prompted by Issue 11 testing with a Tanker using Taunt that was unable to pull enemies away from a Willpower Scrapper using Rise to the Challenge." Now, that DOESN'T say "...from a WP scrapper using Rise to the Challenge AND ATTACKING." Maybe the attacks are to be assumed, even if it doesn't say so? IF that's the case, well, I just wasted my time (and everbody else's) -- and maybe the Wiki entry needs to be updated? My tanker WAS able to pull enemies away from a WP scrapper who was ONLY using RttC, which at least *I* was expecting. My tanker was NOT able to pull ALL the enemies away from a WP scrapper who was using RttC and [the admittedly weak auto-fire Spin] attack, which is what it seem like we were all expecting. Thus, Taunt doesn't appear to be "OMG totally useless" but it's somewhere in the middle of the road. |
"While a Tanker or Brute should normally be able to build Threat much faster than any other Archetype (especially with the help of the Taunt in all of their attacks), Castle's post was prompted by Issue 11 testing with a Tanker using Taunt that was unable to pull enemies away from a Willpower Scrapper using Rise to the Challenge. The combination of the Scrapper's enemy proximity, pulsing Taunt, and constant damage far outdid the ranged Taunt by the Tanker. "
Notice the "constant damage" part, meaning that the Scrapper must have been attacking (since Willpower lacks a damage aura, it couldn't be that).
Now, a Tanker using Taunt and no damage should be able to pull five away from the Scrapper easily with each Taunt use, but may lose that aggro over time as his Taunt wears off. But the Scrapper can hit up to ten with Spin, so the Tanker wouldn't grab that aggro with just the first application of Taunt.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
So I typically run a lot of ITrials on my SS/Fire/Soul Brute and I do not have taunt. Since I tend to tank and take aggro, is there any benefit to picking it up? Normally my damage alone seems to pull attention.
However, I admit I haven't used taunt much. I know of that famous experiment where a Tanker sat taunting an enemy off a Scrapper and the enemy never moved due to proximity. So is there a use for it?
I know it could be helpful for pulling mobs (Like in the MOM trial or AM in the Keyes) but doesn't spamming Gloom accomplish the same thing?