Powersets that need review
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-22 09:28 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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As it should. But frequently not enough.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's more that the NGE changes in Star Wars scared ALL developers from making major changes to a class or in our case powerset.
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| There are powersets in this game and whole powerset categories (looking at you Manipulation sets) that just plain need to be re-imagined. But no developer wants to take the aggro. |
Players get used to things. The grow to love things. And if you take those things away, they will get mad, even if what you give them in return is "better".
There are ways to do things that DON'T require you to alienate half your playerbase in the name of "the vision".
Kinetic Melee is the prime example. This is, in effect, Energy Melee mk2. But added in such a way that doesn't take anything away from those people who like the original version.
I really should do something about this signature.
Most of the calls to turn KB into KD can be solved with the Overwhelming Force proc.
It would suck for the people who LIKE the KB in those powers to be deprived of it because someone else doesn't like it. Give people the opportunity to decide for themselves.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I know that there are others that share your viewpoint, and have gone around and around on this in the past. To each his own. Simply by being a Defender powerset, being "team-oriented" is a given, however, I feel safe in saying that the developers did not "intend" for such a large disparity in solo performance between defender primaries. In Fact, Empaths were quite solo-able before the GDN and ED changes. Since then, they have not recieved ANY review that I am aware of.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Have to say I don't see that as a problem with empathy. It's a team-focused set. That's not a bad thing. And we do have a second build available that lets you open up to other options for soloing - and with empathy (and thermal, and pain, and FF) that can be a lot of options that let you focus more on your own offense, damage and/or survivability.
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As far as optional builds go, I have three builds that are quite well developed. Two of them are solo builds (one for soft-capped defense, and one for tiered defenses). I have my awesome team build as well. You see, my preferred "team role" is support, but I also like to solo. Before you say I should make a new character, I have done that too. All roads lead back to my first chosen path, and would like that to have a boost in "solo-ability" without making it over-powered. That's all I ask for.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Well we should in the future have a way to deal with the KB in powers like Wormhole and Whirlwind in the future going by a recent community talk.
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Yea, the devs have stated that there will be a KB-KD proc for non damaging moves.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Well we should in the future have a way to deal with the KB in powers like Wormhole and Whirlwind in the future going by a recent community talk.
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That's exactly what I said.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
No. No developer want's to loose the players.
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| Players get used to things. The grow to love things. And if you take those things away, they will get mad, even if what you give them in return is "better". |
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There are ways to do things that DON'T require you to alienate half your playerbase in the name of "the vision". Kinetic Melee is the prime example. This is, in effect, Energy Melee mk2. But added in such a way that doesn't take anything away from those people who like the original version. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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How are you stuck? Anyone can roll a KM toon.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Sucks for the people stuck with Energy Melee though...
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Really, I can respec my character I've created in Issue 6 to KM. Please tell me how?|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
How are you stuck? Anyone can roll a KM toon.
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EDIT: And please don't start with the 'reroll' nonsense. An alt is an alt. People shouldn't have to abandon beloved characters.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
My personal suggestions:
The most obvious to me are energy melee, battle axe, sonic resonance, trick arrow, force fields, poison, ice control, mercs, and ninjas. I do not have experience with beast mastery, so no comment there.
Energy melee:
The secondary effect (stun) is great, but is redundant; control is all about magnitude threshold vs. targets, and it is strong enough to hit bosses sometimes, but never strong enough to stun much more, but never does anything else.
Proposed solution:
- All energy melee attacks have a chance to stun. If that stun lands, the next energy melee attack have a chance to release a limited, small radius burst of energy against that target, "concussive burst." While most Energy melee attacks have chance to create a concussive burst, total focus, stun, and energy transfer have an almost guaranteed chance to make a concussive burst. Note: concussive burst would be a small radius aoe (5' radius) with a target limit of 5.
- Give stun the old, quick energy transfer animation
- Increase total focus' magnitude to mag 4 to match seismic smash/KO blow.
- Increase Whirling hands' radius to 10', slightly increase damage.
- Frontload Energy transfer's damage, so it has a fast delivery but then a 'wind-down.'
Battle axe;
As mentioned, it has lost some of its flavor over time. It doesn't need much, but the pure lethal damage is very often resisted. As such, give it a chance to 'wound' a target. Wounded targets suffer damage over time, reduced defense, and reduce max hitpoints for a limited time.
Sonic Resonance:
This set lacks means to reduce incoming damage and means to undo damage. If sonic resonance is ever on its own as the team's sole source of support, it suffers more than other buff/debuff sets as it has almost nothing it can do to give the team any more help when things go wrong. You shield your allies, lay down your debuffs, and that's all you can do much of the time. Also, you have no way to protect from psychic damage.
Suggested fix:
- Give sonic siphon a stacking -damage. This means that because of the longer recharge, sonic resonance users can give teams and themselves higher safety the longer the fight takes.
- Make sonic cage a toggle, lower its recharge.
- Give clarity psychic resistance. This removes redundancy with sonic dispersion, and closes the hole that sonic has to psychic protection.
- Give all sonic shields resistance to the side effects carried by the damage types they shield from. S/L give resists to -def. nrg/neg nrg/cold give resistance to -end, -recovery, -tohit, -recharge, -speed.
- As with stalker's energy aura, convert sonic repulsion to a fixed-cost mag 2 stun aura, rather than the continuous cost AND KB cost toggle it is.
- reduce liquefy's recharge.
I only have VERY limited experience with trick arrow, so I'll pass that off to those with better experience. I will say the recharges in general for the AoE debuffs are a tad high, and the set's controls should be better at debuffing, even at the cost of control duration. I will ssay I always feel bad for my TA buddy who lays down his arrows just as we all run past him, all enemies destroyed in our wake. His debuffs are great when they are all down, but in most cases he doesn't get the chance.
Force field:
Force field is very good at what it does, but what it does is limited and almost completely unscalable. It gives so much defense you very seldom need more, but has little to fall back on. This in a setting where other sets give defense with many other tools, so making force field more diverse would make it a much more palatable choice.
Suggestions:
- Give all defense buffing powers -def resistance. This makes forcefields' defense protection the most reliable, as it is far more immune to cascading failure.
- Give force bolt and repulsion bomb 'bruising' properties, lowering the damage resistance of the targets they hit.
- Change detention field into a toggle, lower its recharge.
Poison:
This is perhaps one of the more varied debuff sets, featuring just about every debuff a set can have. It has the luxury of these being clicks, so they last and are not detoggled. On the downside, many repeat applications are pointless as the effects are unstackable, and almost all effects can miss. The values of the debuffs are lower than other debuff sets, despite the fact that this set has a limited area for many of its debuffs, and the set has very limited mitigation or healing.
Suggestions:
- Either improve envenom's -regen or make it partially (or fully) unresistable. Make its -defense unresistable, but unstackable.
- Make weaken's -tohit, -damage stackable. This way the set gives greater mitigation as long fights go on against tough targets.
- Improve poison trap's -endurance, so that it ticks continuously, providing sapping mitigation.
- Make masterminds' noxious gas a minion toggle.
Ice control:
This set was made way back when the devs claimed slows were a form of control, and the set shows it. So my suggestion is to run with that. Give ice's slowing powers a chance to hold any foe whose recharge and/or speed is debuffed below a certain point, encasing them in ice. this effect would be called "frozen over," and would be unstackable. As such a foe "frozen over" could not be held again by an ice control until the effect wore off. "Frozen over" would be a mag 3 hold, so it would not control bosses or higher, but would carry with it a -max hp effect,a s the foes become more vulnerable in their brittle, frozen state.
Suggestions:
- chilblain: low chance of "freeze over"
- Block of ice: low chance of "freeze over"
- Frostbite: low chance of chance of "freeze over"
- Artic Air: low chance of "freeze over"
- Shiver: medium chance of "freeze over"
- Ice slick: low chance to "freeze over," add -recharge, and -defense. The idea being that the unsure surface reduces the enemies' agility, and the -rechagre is from the cold slowing the enemy. This also gives ice slick more uses as it still is functional after a foes immune to knockback is immobilized on it.
- Flash Freeze: remove damage, medium chance to "freeze over"
- Glacier: medium chance of "freeze over"
Mercs: Higher upgrade adds 'tracer rounds' to soldiers, giving their attacks fire damage. Reduce all control powers' recharge. Reduce serum's recharge.
Ninjas: give all tier one and 2 ninjas high innate defense. Because yes, they are ninjas.
That's "all" I'd do.
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I misunderstood. So you want EM to be like KM or to be reviewed? Help me see what you see?
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Really, I can respec my character I've created in Issue 6 to KM. Please tell me how?
EDIT: And please don't start with the 'reroll' nonsense. An alt is an alt. People shouldn't have to abandon beloved characters. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Looks good to me but what is the mag of Detention Field?|
Originally Posted by Seldom
My personal suggestions:
Force field:
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On the basis that it doesn't phase AV's then get it to apply -regen -resist. On the basis that the target is semi-phased and has these debuffs applied.
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
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It would phase AVs, but no reason it still can't do -regen. No point in -resist, though, since you can't hurt them at all. -regen would just make them not gain any more health, as it can never drop below 0% and start hurting them.
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
Looks good to me but what is the mag of Detention Field?
On the basis that it doesn't phase AV's then get it to apply -regen -resist. On the basis that the target is semi-phased and has these debuffs applied. |
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Why sad? Because people don't prefer to live in constant chaos?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
That's exactly what I said.
Agreed. Sad, but agreed. |
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Sucks for the people stuck with Energy Melee though...
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How long have you been playing Energy Melee? How long did you play it before you decided you didn't like it? Exactly why do you feel you have to abandon it? Because your powerset doesn't conform to the latest fads and fashions?
All the information is provided before you pick your powerset. Energy Melee is quite obviously a single target set with lots of stun. If that's not what you want, don't pick it. It's when people come along and start changing things that you end up stuck with something you didn't choose and never wanted.
I really should do something about this signature.
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While I agree with the premise that powers should be significantly changed only if very needed, it certainly could be argued that those of us who played EM before the animation changes are not without a case. You can't really defend keeping EM as is by saying, "I love the way it was originally designed".|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I have Energy Melee. I've been playing it on my main for seven years. I'm happy with it and definitely DON'T want it changed.
How long have you been playing Energy Melee? How long did you play it before you decided you didn't like it? Exactly why do you feel you have to abandon it? Because your powerset doesn't conform to the latest fads and fashions? |
Otherwise, I can tell you to talk to the hand.
I should note, I love the new ET animation and prefer it to the old "talk to the hand" one.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The changes to the animation time on ET where nesassary for game balance. I was well aware of how overpowered the fast animating ET was through playing it.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
While I agree with the premise that powers should be significantly changed only if very needed, it certainly could be argued that those of us who played EM before the animation changes are not without a case. You can't really defend keeping EM as is by saying, "I love the way it was originally designed".
Otherwise, I can tell you to talk to the hand. I should note, I love the new ET animation and prefer it to the old "talk to the hand" one. |
But no case has been made that Energy Melee is now significantly out of kilter in terms of power levels. Sure, it's weaker than SS or TW. But that's a problem with the other sets, not EM. No, it's people whining because they don't like stun, or being single target focused, or having self-damage, or being insufficiently gimmicky.
Change for balance is sometimes needed, but change for changes sake should be avoided at all costs.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I agree, the way I'd like for it to play out would be if it could keep new animation, but tweak the timing of it; speed up the "arms up and thrust" portion, so that the character keeps the strong thrust motion, but it becomes quick and damage front-loaded. Then slow down the 'ease out' motion after the forward hit/thrust, so that the animation, though the same, has a slower wind-down. This would keep both the fast strike feel of the original AT, the more 'solid' current two-handed strike, and the total animation time they used to balance it.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
...I should note, I love the new ET animation and prefer it to the old "talk to the hand" one.
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It is arguable that all of those combined may be an issue. I play EM on a stalker, so the set is pretty much perfect for that AT, so I am happy on a personal level. I have always been more concerned with how the set functions for brutes and tankers.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
No, it's people whining because they don't like stun, or being single target focused, or having self-damage, or being insufficiently gimmicky.
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Those ATs normally have more AoE capability, although not necessarily damage. It is not so bad for tankers, because both ET and TF have massive gauntlet radii, so they can still provide good control for the team. It is hard for me to argue for any brute buffs.
So I can't argue for changes to EM. I just can't. But at the same time, something feels off about it. So while I don't jump on board that EM is bad off, I sort of sympathize and understand where people who want changes are coming from.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Ice Control -- For too long, Ice has been equated to Earth, because both sets have a knockdown patch, and both sets have low (and nearly identical) damage potential. The problem is and always has been that Ice doesn't have anywhere near Earth's practical control ability. Slows are nice, but they're not anywhere near so useful as an AoE stun that's (potentially) available on an every-spawn basis.
(Volcanic Gasses is also almost unreservedly better than Glacier, niche-play-style arguments to the contrary notwithstanding. And, as if to add insult to injury, Earth has more proc-slotting opportunities than Ice does.)
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Periodic review and changes to conform to the current game does not equal 'constant chaos.'|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Why sad? Because people don't prefer to live in constant chaos?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I have Energy Melee. I've been playing it on my main for seven years. I'm happy with it and definitely DON'T want it changed.
How long have you been playing Energy Melee? How long did you play it before you decided you didn't like it? Exactly why do you feel you have to abandon it? Because your powerset doesn't conform to the latest fads and fashions? |
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| All the information is provided before you pick your powerset |
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| Energy Melee is quite obviously a single target set with lots of stun. If that's not what you want, don't pick it. It's when people come along and start changing things that you end up stuck with something you didn't choose and never wanted. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I thought of another power I'd like to see reviewed: Detonator for Traps Masterminds. This power is a huge mess, first enhancements in it don't actually work properly since it actually uses the damage, accuracy and knockback enhancements slotted in the targeted pet rather than the ones in Detonator. Now I could live with that but the second problem is that the damage varies wildly depending on whether your primary is a Human-based set (Thugs, Mercs and Ninjas) or a non-human set (everything else).
Why does it differ? Well the power works slightly differently based on whether the henchman targeted is human or not. When it is used on human henchmen they summon a pseudo-pet Time Bomb that deals the damage whereas non-human henchmen simply gain an additional PBAoE attack that they use immediately. Now the human time bomb power has damage scale 5.5 while the non-human one is damage scale 5. Now this alone I could live with, a 10% damage bonus is nice but not great. However because the human henchmen summon a pseudo pet it uses the standard pet damage scale as opposed to the henchmen damage scales (which are lower than the generic pet scales).
So the actual unenhanced damage for Detonator is approximately*:
Human Henchman (any rank): 305.86
Non-Human Minion Henchman: 125
Non-Human Lieutenant Henchman: 153
Non-Human Boss Henchman: 180
*Values are approximate since I don't know the Henchman damage scales for certain. I am approximating based on checking powers on City of Data that list the damage a henchman does and the damage scale of the attack.
So yeah, it's not critical but I would like to see the damage normalized a bit.
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Fixed that for you. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Most players range of balance tolerance is this big:
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| The devs range of tolerance is this big: |----------------------------------------------------------------------| Many forumites range of tolerance is this big: |-------------------------------------------------| And Rakeeb's range is this big: |----------------------| Reppu |-| |
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Fail post is fail. You actually QUOTED 'Anyone can ROLL a KM' and replied with this.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Really, I can respec my character I've created in Issue 6 to KM. Please tell me how?
EDIT: And please don't start with the 'reroll' nonsense. An alt is an alt. People shouldn't have to abandon beloved characters. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Calling them cowards is very strong. It could be equally argued that anyone that can't generate sufficient balance to have a functional game within the framework required is stupid.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
You're absolutely right. It's a shame.
EDIT: Cowards, but motivated by money and the survival of themselves / their families. I get it. I'm looking at weird stuff these days anyway, guys that are doing it for the art more than for the market. Secret World as opposed to (for example) The Old Republic. |
We have a phrase in engineering to describe solutions that begin with "throw everything else away and then do what I say." Its not a repeatable phrase, but it makes assertions I would consider anatomically unlikely.
Good engineering finds solutions to problems that function within the limitations of the systems they must operate within. You're given limits in resources, in technology, in what you can touch and what you can't change. And within those limits, a solution is either possible or impossible. If its possible, a good engineer finds and implements it. If its impossible, a good engineer can prove it. If its just hard, a good engineer admits they aren't as good as they thought they were.
If the devs presented me with a problem: fix this. And I was given limits in the mechanics I could use, the mechanics I could change, and the net results I was required to deliver, I would put my money where my mouth was and craft one. And a good solution would work, would cost a minimum of resources, would require the minimal alterations to the game systems, would be easy to understand, would be supportable and extensible by future developers, and would make the change in such a way that the players would barely notice it was there. I would do that without simply reinventing the wheel, without overturning half the game to do it, and without violating any of the current foundational game design rules of the game.
Because that's just what good engineering is. It serves the needs of the users of the systems. If you don't care about the feelings of the players of the game when you're making the game, or the needs of your fellow developers, what's the point?
If I'm as smart as I think I am, I shouldn't trip over the cottage rule and run home bawling over a skinned knee. I should treat it like making an airplane and having to deal with gravity.
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What? Get over yourself. EVERYONE has their own ideas on what sets need things, what they need, what they want. That is why it is..you know..THEIR opinions. There is no way possible that us, people playing the game with NO say on what happens (mostly) can make a thread listing changes..and NOT have it turn into what we want.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Reviewing older sets and making improvements to them is "all" I am talking about when I said review. I am not into patching new gimmicks on older sets no sorry that sucks warm donkey balls.
This thread has turned out to be yet another make the AT or powerset do what "I" want it to do vs a review seeking more balance across the sets. Typical. |
I already said most of the ideas here were really good, and balanced. To ME. Maybe not to the devs..we dont know their minds do we.
Tell me Darth..do you have a..dual blades, time manip, water blast, titan weapons, beam rilfe, street justice, or staff toons? Or and beasts. ANY of them? Cause if you do..your playing a gimmick. As I said in another thread..ALL sets have gimmicks. Some are just less obvious. Fire blast..gimmick is a dot and move damage. Oh great idea..lets ban everyone who doesnt like gimmicks from playing fire blase!
Also, question for you. What if, the devs did review the older sets. You know..like you say..a Review. And THEN decided to add a few gimmicks in? Shall we have tissues on standby?
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The devs range of tolerance is this big:
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Many forumites range of tolerance is this big:
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And Rakeeb's range is this big:
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