The ONE thing you want to know...
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-07-16 20:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm not sure I see the inconsitency with this. If Silos is Nemesis from a timeline where the well didn't become sentient/go mad/become controlled (whatever happened to it), then he, like most people would never have known about it. He would have experieneced incarnate power by fighting Statesman and Recluse. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
4. According to the game lore, Mender Silos believed the Well of the Furies was a myth until confirmed by Mender Ramiel. Ramiel implies that our timeline is not the original one Silos is from, which implies that there exists an original alternate timeline in which incarnate power and the well were not generally revealed to Primal Earth. But the confrontation with Praetorian Earth was set in motion by events having nothing to do with Silos, and Prometheus' involvement is contingent on the rise of Cole on Praetorian Earth, his awareness of Primal Earth, and the Coming Storm. We know Silos didn't cause the Coming Storm, or at least it was a certainty before his other time traveling activities because the other Menders are aware of it. Cole's rise as an Incarnate starts decades before the modern intervention of Nemesis and Silos. Interdimensional travel via Portal Corp does not seem to be tied to anachronistic tampering. Furthermore, Mender Ramiel later tells Silos in-game that he (Silos) has only experienced a limited subset of incarnate power, demonstrating that Silos is aware of incarnates in general. So why Silos is unaware of the Well of the Furies before Ramiel comes back to our time is an unexplained inconsistency.
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Cut to 45000 (or whatever) years in the future, after the Coming Storm does its thing. He comes back to meddle in time in various ways, which has the side effect of causing the mad well thingy, which leads to the whole incarnate arms race, which brings Prometheus into things, which makes The Well common knowledge. Then Ramiel, from the future where the well is known about, comes back to tell Silos.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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That's not an explanation, that's a statement. But exploring that statement, why each species? Why not all the redheads get one Well and all the Blondes get another one? Why don't the mutant super humans get their own?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think each species just has one Well, no matter how many dimensions they're found in.
So the human Well is found in any dimension where humans exist, just like the Kheldian Well is found in any dimension where the Kheldians exist - so the Primal dimension can have a human and a Kheldian Well because both species exist there, but there wouldn't be a Kheldian Well in the Praetorian dimension if Kheldians didn't exist there. |
And if that's the case, how is it possible that the Battalion can wipe out and absorb the Wells of other species, when that Well and its denizens exist across an infinite amount of dimensions? How do you attack something that exists simultaneously in lots of different dimensions from just one dimension? Why are they coming here to attack our Well, when they could do that from almost anywhere the Well has connections? If its us that's important, why? There are an infinite number of other humans connected to the Well in other dimensions. Killing us would be meaningless.
If the Wells exist in all other dimensions with humans, it stands to reason creating a single Champion to defend itself against the Battalion is ludicrous: it would need to create Champions in every dimension it existed in that the Battalion could attack.
And if the Wells do exist across all dimensions with the same species, then Venture's craptastic world just got craptasticer. Because now tampering with or destroying a Well in any dimension permanently stunts that species in an infinite number of other dimensions, and they'll never even know how it happened. Our Well could be destroyed at any time by a Darrin Wade that happens to live in a dimension where he's successful.
And in an infinite number of timelines, someone like Darrin Wade will *have* to be successful eventually.
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The inconsistency is that while the lore *says* Silos comes from a timeline where the well didn't awaken, that seems impossible because the events that lead to our discovery of the Well do not begin in the Primal dimension. They actually begin in the Praetorian universe. The Well awakens when Statesman and Recluse encounter it on Primal Earth, and when Cole encounters it on Praetorian Earth. Silos could not have tampered with those events because he's aware of Statesman and Recluse. But its Cole in the Praetorian universe that pursues power to control Praetorian Earth, and according to Prometheus the Well has already chosen Cole as his champion, and Prometheus acts to thwart that. All of this is completely independent of Silos: there's little he could have done to avert it short of Nemesis manipulating the entire Praetorian universe.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
I'm not sure I see the inconsitency with this. If Silos is Nemesis from a timeline where the well didn't become sentient/go mad/become controlled (whatever happened to it), then he, like most people would never have known about it. He would have experieneced incarnate power by fighting Statesman and Recluse.
Cut to 45000 (or whatever) years in the future, after the Coming Storm does its thing. He comes back to meddle in time in various ways, which has the side effect of causing the mad well thingy, which leads to the whole incarnate arms race, which brings Prometheus into things, which makes The Well common knowledge. Then Ramiel, from the future where the well is known about, comes back to tell Silos. |
We find out about the Well because of Prometheus. Prometheus acts because the Well chooses Cole as its champion. The Well awakens because among other things Cole encounters it in the Praetorian universe and then begins his path to power. Silos is unlikely to have caused Cole to encounter the Well in the Praetorian universe, because those are shared events with the Primal universe that Silos did not tamper with. So how did Silos come from a timeline where the Well of the Furies is unknown?
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Well, there's also the theory that the Primal dimension is in fact the "real" dimension, and that every other dimension is just a version or reflection of it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's not an explanation, that's a statement. But exploring that statement, why each species? Why not all the redheads get one Well and all the Blondes get another one? Why don't the mutant super humans get their own?
And if that's the case, how is it possible that the Battalion can wipe out and absorb the Wells of other species, when that Well and its denizens exist across an infinite amount of dimensions? How do you attack something that exists simultaneously in lots of different dimensions from just one dimension? Why are they coming here to attack our Well, when they could do that from almost anywhere the Well has connections? If its us that's important, why? There are an infinite number of other humans connected to the Well in other dimensions. Killing us would be meaningless. If the Wells exist in all other dimensions with humans, it stands to reason creating a single Champion to defend itself against the Battalion is ludicrous: it would need to create Champions in every dimension it existed in that the Battalion could attack. And if the Wells do exist across all dimensions with the same species, then Venture's craptastic world just got craptasticer. Because now tampering with or destroying a Well in any dimension permanently stunts that species in an infinite number of other dimensions, and they'll never even know how it happened. Our Well could be destroyed at any time by a Darrin Wade that happens to live in a dimension where he's successful. And in an infinite number of timelines, someone like Darrin Wade will *have* to be successful eventually. |
That would explain why the human Well isn't destoryed, even when humamity has been reduced or wiped out on other Earths.
For example, on Rikti Earth, humanity has been transformed into something no longer human, Axis Earth has suffered world wide genocide after the Nazi's won the war, Praetorian Earth has been reduced to a few human cities in a wilderness of monsters, only robots are left on Clockwork Earth after the Clockwork King took it over, the Freakshow rule the ruins of yet another Earth, while we've even visited an Earth where our double wiped out humanity - but because Primal Earth - the "real" Earth - still exists, the human Well also still exists.
It's quite possibly been weakened by the loss of humans on those other Earths, but as long as Primal Earth remains, the Well will still be there - which would also be why whatever kind of entity Battalion is would be targeting us rather than another dimension.
@Golden Girl
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Assuming that the infinite is also unbounded. There are an there are an infinite number of values between two and three, but none of them are four.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And in an infinite number of timelines, someone like Darrin Wade will *have* to be successful eventually.
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I consider the "one Well for all of a species across dimensions" to be rather silly and not well-considered. And the idea that superpowers are some zero-sum game condemning untold numbers in other dimensions to suffering so we can show off is a decidedly unheroic prospect.
I'm beginning to wonder if Primal Earth is getting situated into a position akin to the realm of Amber in Zelazny's stories. The primal dimension is the "true" one that everything else reflects from. It's the only vaguely-plausible explanation for the plot I can surmise and it's still a bit...lacking...
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See above |
Originally Posted by BViking
The primal dimension is the "true" one that everything else reflects from.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
*clears her throat loudly*
ANYWAY...
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
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That doesn't automatically work either. If the important Earth is Primal Earth, why would the Well select a champion on Praetorian Earth? Why would the Well gamble that Cole would be at the right place at the right time when he lives in the wrong place? If the Well is most vulnerable here, then the most important property its champion could possess is to be here.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, there's also the theory that the Primal dimension is in fact the "real" dimension, and that every other dimension is just a version or reflection of it.
That would explain why the human Well isn't destoryed, even when humamity has been reduced or wiped out on other Earths. For example, on Rikti Earth, humanity has been transformed into something no longer human, Axis Earth has suffered world wide genocide after the Nazi's won the war, Praetorian Earth has been reduced to a few human cities in a wilderness of monsters, only robots are left on Clockwork Earth after the Clockwork King took it over, the Freakshow rule the ruins of yet another Earth, while we've even visited an Earth where our double wiped out humanity - but because Primal Earth - the "real" Earth - still exists, the human Well also still exists. It's quite possibly been weakened by the loss of humans on those other Earths, but as long as Primal Earth remains, the Well will still be there - which would also be why whatever kind of entity Battalion is would be targeting us rather than another dimension. |
The Well can basically control all who take the fast path: it could control and speak through Statesman and Recluse. Consistency demands it have that ability for Cole as well. Why not have Cole come here to Primal Earth to defend it from the Battalion? It could have done so *before* Incarnates appeared on Primal Earth to challenge Cole because its the wellspring of incarnate power. The only people who could challenge Cole before we came along were Statesman and Recluse and the Well can control them both.
In fact, although this is not technically an inconsistency its a puzzler: why not control all three and use them against the Battalion? If its purpose is self-preservation its going about it in a highly random fashion.
Here's a more fundamental problem. If the cosmic principle is "it only matters if it happens in the Primal dimension" what do you suppose happens when other beings in other dimensions begin to figure that out. What happens when the prototype of the Battalion tries to consume a Well in another dimension and discovers that act is impossible in that dimension, because its not the primal dimension.
What happens when smart people in an infinite number of other dimensions find out they are living in an unimportant dimension. More importantly, what happens when the most powerful heroes in other dimensions discover that if anything happens to ours, theirs is toast. What happens then?
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Michelle, are you answering cryptic lore questions? Nice! I guess I only have the right to ask one, and that one has to be specific to one character's background, but I'll spam a few more weirdy questions just for kicks if you don't mind.
1) Mystery NPC - what is Patrick Duncan's alias?
... and the other questions follow...
2) What's the connection, if any, between Primal Earth's Furies (as described in the novels) and the creepy winged harpies plaguing First Ward and Dark Astoria?
3) Was Calvin Scott delusional in Primal Earth as well?
4) Male Widows - I've seen some nameless female wolf hunters in the game (in arbiter colors, true), but no male Widows in the game that weren't PCs. Do they actually exist in the lore, or are they a meta-gaming creation?
5) Dream Doctor = Letter writer - he appeared to have some pull over the FBSA agents in Talos Isle, though Agent Adair said she didn't know who the writer was. What sort of pull could the good Doc have over the FBSA to arrange for Protean's release, or did he simply break Protean out and leave the letter behind?
6) The red-and-black colored "voice" on Adair's arc was never actually revealed, who was Protean actually working for? Tyrant? Reichsman? Requiem? Nemesis? The Dream Doctor himself? An unknown party from an unknown alternate dimension?
7) Adair's arc again... We're apparently dealing with 3 dimensions, our PC would be either Primal or Praetorian, the good Doppelganger would be either Praetorian or Primal, and the evil doppelganger would come from... Council Earth? Axis Earth? War Earth? The Shadow Shard? The future?
8) Primal Vanessa DeVore was a college student at the turn of the millennium when she acquired her mask. If Penelope Yin is 22 in 2012, and thus born in 1990, does that mean that Vanessa was 10 when she gave birth to her daughter?
9) Cimerora - it's unclear if this is meant to take place during the short rule of Romulus Augustus (who would have been 16 in 476 AD), or before the republic, during the reign of the early kings of Rome (Romulus, the founder of Rome, reigned during the 8th century BC, so between the 8th and 5th centuries BC).
10) Nictus - they've been on Primal Earth since at least Cimerora, possibly earlier according to Shadowstar, but there's enough evidence to suggest they've actually travelled back in time to get there. When did the Nictus actually arrive on Earth? In ancient times? Present day, only to travel back in time and infest human history? Are they meant to "arrive" in the future, possibly during an invasion event?
11) Nictus again - According to Arakhn, even a powerful nictus like the Dirge of Entropy has to worry about merging with a weak host. Does that mean that at least part of the host's personality survives inside the nictus? Can the human persona take over?
12) Warshades - Shadowstar mentions that warshades are few in number, with her own redeemed symbiote being passed from generation to generation since ancient times. Are PC warshades like that too, meaning, did the nictus' "redemption" take place before it met the PC, or was the PC an unwilling (or maybe willing, i.e. Council or 5th Column) host of a Nictus before it decided to play hero? Furthermore, is it possible that more nictus would seek redemption in the future, or was it a one-time shadow pact in ancient times, its members surviving to present day?
13) Kheldians - Memphis Bill's kheldian guide mentions that the bond between human and alien can be broken at will, like taking off a hat, but Lars Mendelson's words would suggest otherwise, "I'm not Shadowcatcher anymore. I'm not sure I'm even Lars Mendelson." He's talking about an actual personality schism, suggesting their minds were merged, not just their bodies. I just can't see a bond like that unless it was meant to last until the death of one of the pair. What am I missing?
14) Statesman's crotch - what happened to it? When did it went missing, if at all? Assuming it's always been like that, how did he manage to father a child? Is it a special incarnate power that we've yet to unlock?
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This is more me being curious what people want to know more about in the lore (and hoping that Protean, Dr. Aeon, .Viridian., and company notice). I answer questions if I know them, but I don't know everything.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Michelle, are you answering cryptic lore questions?
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Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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The answer is simple. Prometheus and the angels are actually the true Vanguard of Battalion and have been lying to us the entire time and having us lay the groundwork for devouring the Well. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That doesn't automatically work either. If the important Earth is Primal Earth, why would the Well select a champion on Praetorian Earth? Why would the Well gamble that Cole would be at the right place at the right time when he lives in the wrong place? If the Well is most vulnerable here, then the most important property its champion could possess is to be here.
The Well can basically control all who take the fast path: it could control and speak through Statesman and Recluse. Consistency demands it have that ability for Cole as well. Why not have Cole come here to Primal Earth to defend it from the Battalion? It could have done so *before* Incarnates appeared on Primal Earth to challenge Cole because its the wellspring of incarnate power. The only people who could challenge Cole before we came along were Statesman and Recluse and the Well can control them both. In fact, although this is not technically an inconsistency its a puzzler: why not control all three and use them against the Battalion? If its purpose is self-preservation its going about it in a highly random fashion. Here's a more fundamental problem. If the cosmic principle is "it only matters if it happens in the Primal dimension" what do you suppose happens when other beings in other dimensions begin to figure that out. What happens when the prototype of the Battalion tries to consume a Well in another dimension and discovers that act is impossible in that dimension, because its not the primal dimension. What happens when smart people in an infinite number of other dimensions find out they are living in an unimportant dimension. More importantly, what happens when the most powerful heroes in other dimensions discover that if anything happens to ours, theirs is toast. What happens then? |
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This one's farther back. I'd *suspect* the nictus in Cimerora did the time travelling bit, as they know about States and Recluse. However, Shadowstar's been around since at least ancient Egypt, well predating that.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
10) Nictus - they've been on Primal Earth since at least Cimerora, possibly earlier according to Shadowstar, but there's enough evidence to suggest they've actually travelled back in time to get there. When did the Nictus actually arrive on Earth? In ancient times? Present day, only to travel back in time and infest human history? Are they meant to "arrive" in the future, possibly during an invasion event? |
We don't have an actual date of arrival.
As for "meant to arrive in the future," follow my sig to the Kheld Backstory arc. They've been manipulating the Path of the Dark, they've been driving the Council, and their plans include wiping out the Peacebringers, taking over world leaders, and making the Earth a new Nictus homeworld... something you do get a glimpse of, by the way, in Unai Keenan's arc.
(We also don't, come to think of it, know if Shadowstar arrived as a Nictus or a Warshade.)
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| 11) Nictus again - According to Arakhn, even a powerful nictus like the Dirge of Entropy has to worry about merging with a weak host. Does that mean that at least part of the host's personality survives inside the nictus? Can the human persona take over? |
I had to dig and find what you were looking for - The Final darkness, clue:
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My Requiem, At times I now almost regret sending Ridolfo Uzanno to Ravenna. I had hoped you would gain enough strength. I had hope dyou would survive. I had not dreamed that you would join with a Nictus as powerful as Dirge of Entropy, and perhaps that is the problem. perhaps the bond between a Nictus so strong and a man so weak has created a creature too emboldened by it's power. Remember that I am the ruler of the Nictus, Requiem. I am the one who led us to this Earth. I refined fragmentation, I created the cysts where we can survive. You had plans only for temporal power within this world, I had plan to change this world forever and make it a new home for our kind. The Center's genius could have been our greatest asset, and you would tell me what to do with it! You short sighted fool! It is no wonder that our plans hae come to naught with you at their helm! - Arakhn' |
Host and Nictus (or Kheldian, or Warshade) do have influence on each other. How much, I'd imagine, varies by the individual personalities. Though, given the bit with the N-fragments, I think it's fair to say if the Nictus can't win over by force, it'll try trickery and subtlety.
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| 12) Warshades - Shadowstar mentions that warshades are few in number, with her own redeemed symbiote being passed from generation to generation since ancient times. Are PC warshades like that too, meaning, did the nictus' "redemption" take place before it met the PC, or was the PC an unwilling (or maybe willing, i.e. Council or 5th Column) host of a Nictus before it decided to play hero? Furthermore, is it possible that more nictus would seek redemption in the future, or was it a one-time shadow pact in ancient times, its members surviving to present day? |
You can play it any way you want.
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| 13) Kheldians - Memphis Bill's kheldian guide mentions that the bond between human and alien can be broken at will, like taking off a hat, but Lars Mendelson's words would suggest otherwise, "I'm not Shadowcatcher anymore. I'm not sure I'm even Lars Mendelson." He's talking about an actual personality schism, suggesting their minds were merged, not just their bodies. I just can't see a bond like that unless it was meant to last until the death of one of the pair. What am I missing? |
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True, but if you don't know something, chances are it's because the players aren't supposed to know that yet. Not implying you know everything, but from what I can tell you seem to know pretty much *everything* lore related about this game.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
This is more me being curious what people want to know more about in the lore (and hoping that Protean, Dr. Aeon, .Viridian., and company notice). I answer questions if I know them, but I don't know everything.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(We also don't, come to think of it, know if Shadowstar arrived as a Nictus or a Warshade.)
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
As for "meant to arrive in the future," follow my sig to the Kheld Backstory arc. They've been manipulating the Path of the Dark, they've been driving the Council, and their plans include wiping out the Peacebringers, taking over world leaders, and making the Earth a new Nictus homeworld... something you do get a glimpse of, by the way, in Unai Keenan's arc.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Host and Nictus (or Kheldian, or Warshade) do have influence on each other. How much, I'd imagine, varies by the individual personalities. Though, given the bit with the N-fragments, I think it's fair to say if the Nictus can't win over by force, it'll try trickery and subtlety.
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A host breaking free after that? Impossible, short of outside interference, like the mind-schism that happened to Shadowcatcher.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
This... is purely up to the player. There's no pact - think of it this way. We have traitors and spies in human nations today in the real world. There was no ancient spy-pact made. Becoming a Warshade is the nictus's change of heart - possibly due to the influence of a host, much like Sunstorm's intro talks about for him. The most notable difference is that instead of taking a host by force, the host is willing.
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Again, the only thing that has to not happen the first time is for the well to be mad enough to choose a champion. If it doesn't, then Tyrant is just a regular Incarnate, theres no Incarnate arms race etc...|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The inconsistency is that while the lore *says* Silos comes from a timeline where the well didn't awaken, that seems impossible because the events that lead to our discovery of the Well do not begin in the Primal dimension. They actually begin in the Praetorian universe. The Well awakens when Statesman and Recluse encounter it on Primal Earth, and when Cole encounters it on Praetorian Earth. Silos could not have tampered with those events because he's aware of Statesman and Recluse. But its Cole in the Praetorian universe that pursues power to control Praetorian Earth, and according to Prometheus the Well has already chosen Cole as his champion, and Prometheus acts to thwart that. All of this is completely independent of Silos: there's little he could have done to avert it short of Nemesis manipulating the entire Praetorian universe.
We find out about the Well because of Prometheus. Prometheus acts because the Well chooses Cole as its champion. The Well awakens because among other things Cole encounters it in the Praetorian universe and then begins his path to power. Silos is unlikely to have caused Cole to encounter the Well in the Praetorian universe, because those are shared events with the Primal universe that Silos did not tamper with. So how did Silos come from a timeline where the Well of the Furies is unknown? |
At the simplest level (ignoring the possibility of the well being controlled/coruppted by something else) it could just be:
If we take it that the Well wants a champion to defend against the Coming Storm, then in Silos's original time there would be no foreknowldge of the Storm, so The Well would not have known it needed a champion to protect it. Thus Tyrant is just standard Incarnate, no incarnate arms race, no prometheus involvement, no widespread knowledge/belief of the well. (basically, a continuation of the world as it was pre-Issue 11)
Silos comes back, brining forwarning of The Storm, thus the well wants a champion leading to some sort of Incarnate arms race, but its too slow to stop The Storm. (we don't see this but thats what Ramiel said happened)
Ramiel comes back to speed up the process. And thats where we are.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Thinking about it, why would you say superhero stories are supposed to have solid historys. Comic books have always been notorious for their retcons and continuity changes. Take for example, the key moment in the backstory of one of the most famous superheroes ever: The Death of Bruce Wane's parents. No-one knows/agrees what year it happened, what age Bruce was, who did it, why they did it or whether batman eventually caught them. The story changing at the whim of writers with 'good ideas' should be entirely what one expects from a superhero story, shouldn't it?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
It means that no matter what we players think we know about anything in the game, that we never can really have faith that we know the whole story. It can change at the whim of a writer with a "good idea". That's all well and good for a game about conspiracies where you know up-front that you don't know the whole story and that what you do know probably ought to be questioned. This is a game about super heroes and villains and it's supposed to have a solid history.
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Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Exactly, that's exactly what I meant.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The Well of the Furies that we have today bears small resemblance to the Well that Marcus and Stefan dipped their hands into back in 2004 (that being the year the game launched, not the literal in-game year that they received their power). The characterization of the Well as a cosmic dimension-spanning entity is inconsistent with the original characterization of it as a passive "battery of human potential". In fact, the Well was originally a dodge and Pandora's Box was the real power source. Later, it turned out that the BOX was the dodge and the real source was the Well after all.
Now, you can wave your hands and say, "That's not inconsistency, it's just that <handwave>we now know more about it than we knew eight years ago</handwave>." There's no particularly good way to refute that because it says that we players were never given the whole story and so anything the devs decide to toss at us lore-wise is perfectly okay because they're just "expanding" on the old content. This, of course, is why I tend to go into Standard Lore Rant #3 about how the devs hoard all of the lore they have in order to promote the existence of this very situation where they tell us the smallest amount of history necessary for the current content and so nothing they write is technically a contradiction of existing lore; it's "actually" an expansion of existing lore instead. It's not that Statesman "realized his potential", it's that he found a magic box and released super powers into the world for the first time since mythological days. Except that it wasn't really the box, it was really The Well, and the potential was actually there all along. Except that the Well actually created this situation and brought Marcus and Stefan to itself because it needed a champion. Except that it's sentient and really wanted to find the person it could use to take over the multiverse. Let's not even get into the silliness that is Doctor Brainstorm, the Origin of Powers, and Power Proliferation. You see <handwave>we're just learning more about it is all</handwave>. It's not REALLY inconsistency. It's just that Statesman lied and then lied again and then the Well itself lied and Mender Silos lies when it suits him and Prometheus is almost certainly lieing about many things. That's okay, though, because a lie means that the truth is never an inconsistency. This is a cheat and a dodge and an excuse for writers and mission programmers to be non-commital and justify whatever they feel like justifying after the fact instead of binding themselves to their established history. It means that no matter what we players think we know about anything in the game, that we never can really have faith that we know the whole story. It can change at the whim of a writer with a "good idea". That's all well and good for a game about conspiracies where you know up-front that you don't know the whole story and that what you do know probably ought to be questioned. This is a game about super heroes and villains and it's supposed to have a solid history. It means that we can never know the answer to a simple question like "What year was the Faultline Incident?" because committing themselves to it would be taking away some of their own freedom and laying themselves open to actually be inconsistent. So, is it inconsistent? No, technically, it's not. The consistency is that we've been lied to repeatedly about the nature of the Well and the Furies and the Gods and we are continuing to be lied to and dodged. The people doing the lieing and the dodging are the writers of the game, and we're supposed to just smile and say "Wow, that's neat! I can't wait to see how the next lie is revealed!" Pardon me; "I can't wait to see next expansion of the existing content." You can take your pick about which statement is actually more correct. |
The lore isn't inconsistent, its been purposely manipulated to avoid it, and that's a far worse insult to the writing than simply going "It's inconsistent and makes no sense."
Every example given is something that can be explained. Such an explanation might be horribly convoluted, but can still exist. A true inconsistency can't be explained. The Well lore isn't inconsistent because the writers refuse to give us enough information for an actual inconsistency to occur.
Main Hero: Mazey - level 50 + 1 fire/fire/fire blaster.
Main Villain: Chained Bot - level 50 + 1 Robot/FF Mastermind.
BattleEngine - "And the prize for the most level headed response ever goes to Mazey"
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Just because there have been terrible stories out there doesn't make it alright to create more. Things like One More Day shouldn't be a free pass for other writers do to as terribly as they feel like. It should instead be treated as a lesson of what not to do, and what to be avoided.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Darkspeed
The story changing at the whim of writers with 'good ideas' should be entirely what one expects from a superhero story, shouldn't it?
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I wasn't saying that, I wasn't even refering to any particularly bad stories. Many of the various twist/turns/retcons/continuity glitches around the death of batman's parents happened in good/decent stories over the years (waaaaay before OMD). I was just questioning the idea somehow it was expected that Superhero stories come with solid historys, when experience shows that that has never really been the case. The very format of the continuing serial comic book, written by different people over the years, seems to more or less preclude that. |
Originally Posted by Xzero45
Just because there have been terrible stories out there doesn't make it alright to create more. Things like One More Day shouldn't be a free pass for other writers do to as terribly as they feel like. It should instead be treated as a lesson of what not to do, and what to be avoided.
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No saying the devs shouldn't try to improve things or that there aren't big plot holes/ bad story elements. Personally I hate the whole story around the trials, for a whole bunch of reasons (mainly that the stories given to them make no sense for the format they were created in).
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Even more to the point. If the Rikti beat the Batallion and we, prior to being incarnates, beat the Rikti twice why do we need the well?
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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
The extremely silly implication of all of this is that the Rikti Well is OUR Well as well because the Rikti are US. The lore (apparently) is that the Rikti once fought off Batallion. That means that Rikti are in danger again because Batallion has now come to a dimension where we are not so able to fight it off. Which means that if Batallion REALLY wants so badly to add our Well to its collection that it just needs to find some dimension where all of the humans are primitive and/or peaceful and then absorb the Well unopposed by anyone who can mount an effective defense and we're all screwed.
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Something witty and profound
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Two words: Voodoo Shark.
| Well, there's also the theory that the Primal dimension is in fact the "real" dimension, and that every other dimension is just a version or reflection of it. |
Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"
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I don't know, with what he says (paraphrasing, "Even I probably killed a few who wanted to convert before we merged and my host mellowed me out,") I've pretty much taken that as a given. Assumption on my part, of course, but it feels like a fairly strong implication. |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Good question. I always assumed Warshades were born on Earth, but even Sunstorm admits it's possible they could have existed in other worlds.
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| That is the part I never understood. Short of perpectually clouding a host's perceptions and recollections, it's unlikely that the parasite would be able to assert control on a permanent basis. That is, unless the merging itself was permanent and irreversible once accepted, one body, one mind, one personality - a strong, dominant nictus overpowering a subdued human host. Two reasons to weaken the host: one, to have it accept the merge; two, to limit the negative influences of its personality once the merge took place. |
The "fragment" (not to be confused with N-fragmet) is sort of a virus. It gets stronger, taking over more and more, making the environment (its host) more suitable for itself - assuming it was strong enough to be more than a battery for purple blast-y powers in the first place.
Of course, I'd also speculate that galaxies are rather a special case to begin with - not only would they be getting 24/7 "suggestions" from the Nictus fragment, if strong enough, but in a paramilitary organization like the council, they're getting force-fed it while awake (and are probably fairly fanatical to begin with - though there are plenty of in-game examples of unwilling recruits, too. See Moonfire TF - "They wanted to implant me with a Nictus! What's a Nictus?")
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| Good point. I think I have a misconstrued view of Kheldians, and you've given me alot to think about. Anyway, thanks Bill, and sorry to bug you with these weird questions. |
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PBs run off the well of their current host? And Nictus are different enough not to count as true khelds?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
(3) Given incarnate trials and what Prometheus's group "knows," the whole "captured the well" bit should be... well, moot, unless the devs are suddenly going to de-Incarnate every Kheldian that's reached that level. Heck, Khelds should (by that line of thought) be twice as powerful, as they'd have two "wells" to draw from, potentially.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Develop a man-crush on Jack Emmert.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Oddly enough they're listed under the Historical Heroes section, when even in that listing they're credited with downing a US plane and nearly starting a Nuclear war...
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Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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That was about 100 years ago, maybe back then the Battalion weren't the Well-devouring powerhouses they're being built up to now? For all we know the Rikti-universe Battalion are different from the Primal-universe Battalion and they never recovered from being defeated by the Rikti.
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Originally Posted by Fista
Even more to the point. If the Rikti beat the Batallion and we, prior to being incarnates, beat the Rikti twice why do we need the well?
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But that's just the Arcanaville Corrollary at work - Eventually, in some universe, Batallion will succeed at eating the Well and then we're all SOL in every universe.|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
That was about 100 years ago, maybe back then the Battalion weren't the Well-devouring powerhouses they're being built up to now? For all we know the Rikti-universe Battalion are different from the Primal-universe Battalion and they never recovered from being defeated by the Rikti.
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Where's Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion when we need him?
Actually, the really silly thing is that this is basically the plot of TORG. Maybe the studio should be working on a TORG MMO.