Concerned about difficulty, thoughts?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-07-11 21:08 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Sounds reasonable. To avoid bad experiences, I agree with gating the harder settings so that nobody is cranking it up on a whim or on a new character. Becoming an incarante or picking up incarnate levels sounds like a reasonable way to gate it for most people most of the time. I'm sure there are people who would want to crank it up on non-incarnate toons, and maybe we can gate it reasonably so that they can do so, but being an incarnate or having incarnate levels just sounds like a nice, clear dividing line.
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Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
How about this idea? Allow players to unlock the increased difficulty levels as they gain incarnate levels. So essentially, unlock the Lore incarnate level and unlock an "Incarnate difficulty" level available in the difficulty NPC. If the concern is that new players can still see the higher difficulties available (even if they can't select them), make them invisible until unlocked.
A side effect would be that accessing and changing incarnate difficulty levels is limited to incarnate toons only, so while non-incarnate toons could join these teams, they couldn't set the difficulty up that high. Which is fine. Doesn't really affect anything, but still a side effect worth mentioning. What do you think of that? That way, new players don't dive in to +8 and immediately get slaughtered, but veterans can still take their main toons into new and uncharted difficulties. |
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Any easier, and I'm unsure how much fun the game will sustain for me over any extended period of time.
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PvP is the single greatest challenge in the game, where it can require perfect reaction time, knowledge of every power and human psychology. It includes the most difficult math equations and the most practice. It includes keeping cool and not letting your ego be your weakness.
If someone is interested in something new and challenging, PvP is the answer for that. Plain and simple.
That being said, I'd have to agree with Nihilii. A lot of people "love" challenges, then quit at the first sign of danger.
We get a lot of players who like pushing themselves to the limit (Pylon testers) and apparently love challenges, die a couple times and quit PvP indefinitely.
I suppose I'm not like Werner, in the sense that he doesn't like dying.
I'm a good player in the harshest environment this game has to offer, and I, as well as every good player in PvP with me, can tell you that it's impossible to get where we are without dying and dying and dying some more until you figure it out.
It's not a challenge unless you've died for hours on end.
Lastly, if you want a challenge in PvE, fix critter AI. Melees have it extremely easy. Critters should scatter and use ranged/debuffing while kiting, now that would be a challenge.
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Haha, tell that to scrappers without a taunt aura!|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned.
PvP is the single greatest challenge in the game, where it can require perfect reaction time, knowledge of every power and human psychology. It includes the most difficult math equations and the most practice. It includes keeping cool and not letting your ego be your weakness. If someone is interested in something new and challenging, PvP is the answer for that. Plain and simple. That being said, I'd have to agree with Nihilii. A lot of people "love" challenges, then quit at the first sign of danger. We get a lot of players who like pushing themselves to the limit (Pylon testers) and apparently love challenges, die a couple times and quit PvP indefinitely. I suppose I'm not like Werner, in the sense that he doesn't like dying. I'm a good player in the harshest environment this game has to offer, and I, as well as every good player in PvP with me, can tell you that it's impossible to get where we are without dying and dying and dying some more until you figure it out. It's not a challenge unless you've died for hours on end. Lastly, if you want a challenge in PvE, fix critter AI. Melees have it extremely easy. Critters should scatter and use ranged/debuffing while kiting, now that would be a challenge. |
Good point about PvP. I've tried it a few times and actually enjoyed it a good deal. There were problems though, reasons that I don't really try PvP anymore in pursuit of challenge. First, there's no story arcs or narrative for PvP. CoH's PvE doesn't have Pulitzer Prize writing, but I do still enjoy it. Second, PvP was hilariously imbalanced/broken last I tried it. Anyone who didn't use spirit shark got owned. Maybe it's better now, but tbh I wouldn't know. Third, PvP tends to be a ghost town. Yeah, it CAN be a challenge. If anyone is playing. And they have enough skill not to be a pushover. And I happen to be playing in the same zone at the same time. PvE doesn't have these problems. I suppose I could actively seek out fellow PvPers, although what with CoH definitely not designed around PvP, I'd somewhat feel like I'm playing the wrong game for PvP. *shrug*
Edit: Just noticed your sig, Sentry4. Looks like my long search for Virtue PvP is over. Hah!
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Not so plain and simple for everyone. I hate PvP. That's not what I play MMOs for.|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
If someone is interested in something new and challenging, PvP is the answer for that. Plain and simple.
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However, I agree that playing against actual human opponents is a great challenge if that's what you're into. It pretty much doesn't get any harder. I have great respect for the PvP community, and I'm sorry that this game hasn't been a better platform for them. Seriously, y'all are great, and deserve better.
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Originally Posted by Sentry4
Lastly, if you want a challenge in PvE, fix critter AI. Melees have it extremely easy. Critters should scatter and use ranged/debuffing while kiting, now that would be a challenge.
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Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Haha, tell that to scrappers without a taunt aura!
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If it was all ranged kiters and debuffers, I'd play something other than melee.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I do worry that the game may be getting a bit easy. Of course, I don't have any toons that play a +4/X8. I tried it once, and though I was moderately successful it just felt like a long drag more than it actually felt like it was a super fun but challenging thing to do.
One of the funner things I did was when I left AVs on doing DA arcs and found myself having to power through several AVs. It was hard and I died a lot, but by golly did I do it! Well... except for Diabolique and her phase power. I did something similar with the recent Belladonna arc and left AVs on, only to discover that the final AV in the arc level shifts as you fight him. Yes, it was a long and epic battle... that I lost. Came back again properly prepared for that level of difficulty, then managed to beat him the second time through.
But more than just having bigger numbers, I think that difficulty could be found in the game by requiring the proper tactics to stop a couple of gimmicks. The hard part about this is that CoH at it's core isn't very gimmick friendly. The characters move fast, the AI isn't the wisest out there, there isn't a lot of dodging, and the versatility of the system requires that obstacles be tailored to be capable of being handled by both characters with defense and characters with none at all. You can throw in several kinds of weaknesses, but this ultimately becomes about power discrimination and AT discrimination more than anything else. Every enemy that launches attack will go straight for your character and will initiate the hit rolls and damage calculation.
As much as I like having to deal with an AV that becomes stronger with time, the fact is that not nearly everyone in the game is ready for that, and many times I question if they are even capable of it. I suppose you could make enemies that have very specific weaknesses like to recharge or having low accuracy but high power, and just make them optional "challenge" events. But, we'll have to make enemies with strange and unusual tricks to them that you have to figure out to beat, unless we can greatly increase the AI of the enemies of the game. This means things like patches with unresistable damage, and enemies that get increased regen from nearby objects, and stuff like what we've already seen.
I'm not against it though. I look at Touhou bullet hells and they make me drool. Give me a complex fight and I'll figure it out.
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Going to highlight the relevant part. And then sound like a broken record. |
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Between nukes, new snipes, and whatnot, I'm somewhat concerned about the future difficulty of the game. At that point, +4 enemies won't be lasting long at all, especially on a team.
The funny thing is, I absolutely love these changes. Turning useless powers into useful is always A+ in my book. But what about the enemies? This game is already widely regarded as fairly easy at high levels, especially on teams. Any easier, and I'm unsure how much fun the game will sustain for me over any extended period of time. Being a superhero/villain is great and all, but not if taking down hordes of villains/heroes is as difficult as punting kittens or playing ping pong with a blind person. Hyperbole aside, what does everyone think? Is the difficulty too easy? Should it change and if so, how? Personally, I hope they let us up the difficulty past +4 or something like that. With incarnate levels, we're already maxed out fighting mere +1s in Dark Astoria. I'm all for more difficult factions such as those in Night Ward, but implementing more difficult challenges in this way limits what enemy groups we can sink our teeth into, further relegating old enemy factions to "Council" status (i.e. good for farming, but not any challenge for most). |
If they do anything, it needs to be *optional.* I don't give a tinker's damn about what a 100 billion, IO'd out, blah blah blah blah blah build - or team of them - can do, other than things like hoping difficulty scales. The overall game should still be reasonably doable at base level on SOs.
(And yes, I know player ability comes into it, given I can tackle content on SOs and see people complaining about being able to complete the same content on their IO'd builds. Which... er, sure.)
That said, I *also* want more stuff that "If you go along like you have been, facerolling your way through content, you WILL have problems here." Create more enemies you don't WANT clustered for AOEs - because they'll buff each other to ridiculous extents. Create situations you have to stop and find a way other than "hit all the things" to complete successfully (and we have a few of these, but not many - the "Investigate rikti ship" where you fail if you fight and defeat the patrols before hitting the glowies, for instance.) Or... well, for instance, Max's DA arc. If you do the prep work, it'll be easier. If not, you'll face everything.
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That arc was awesome. More of that sort of thing, pls thx.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Or... well, for instance, Max's DA arc. If you do the prep work, it'll be easier. If not, you'll face everything.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Is the difficulty too easy? Should it change and if so, how? |
No, for the average player the difficulty is... well... ok.
Yes... the baseline 0/0 should be reset back to actually mean "0/0"
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Well, of course it would be optional. It's optional now. Players wouldn't be forced to play +8 anymore than they are forced to play +4 now. In fact, the only reason it would be even gated is to keep newcomers from trying out the higher difficulty levels, failing, getting discouraged, and rage quitting. Otherwise, the whole system is optional.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Going to highlight the relevant part. And then sound like a broken record.
If they do anything, it needs to be *optional.* I don't give a tinker's damn about what a 100 billion, IO'd out, blah blah blah blah blah build - or team of them - can do, other than things like hoping difficulty scales. The overall game should still be reasonably doable at base level on SOs. (And yes, I know player ability comes into it, given I can tackle content on SOs and see people complaining about being able to complete the same content on their IO'd builds. Which... er, sure.) That said, I *also* want more stuff that "If you go along like you have been, facerolling your way through content, you WILL have problems here." Create more enemies you don't WANT clustered for AOEs - because they'll buff each other to ridiculous extents. Create situations you have to stop and find a way other than "hit all the things" to complete successfully (and we have a few of these, but not many - the "Investigate rikti ship" where you fail if you fight and defeat the patrols before hitting the glowies, for instance.) Or... well, for instance, Max's DA arc. If you do the prep work, it'll be easier. If not, you'll face everything. |
And amen on Max's DA arc. Devs are really showing improvement in their arc and enemy designs. I just would like the optional increased difficulty levels in addition so as to keep earlier content still relevant and fun for those who are not challenged by it anymore. Creating improved new content is great and all, but it does nothing to address the mountain of prior content.
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I haven't noticed *anything* lasting long on a (good) team throughout the entire history of the game.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Between nukes, new snipes, and whatnot, I'm somewhat concerned about the future difficulty of the game. At that point, +4 enemies won't be lasting long at all, especially on a team.
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I see these changes mainly benefiting soloists- on a team, it's just overkill.
But the ATs benefiting most from the changes still won't be casually blasting through high difficulty farm maps- they're still "squishies".
In the case of blasters, they've long been at the bottom of the food chain. Even a fairly huge buff isn't going to make them 'overpowered'. The basic flaw of the AT (no inherent mez defenses in a game with a whole lot of mez) remains in place.
And given the historically cautious approach the devs take to any sort of buff I doubt any of this stuff is the result of 4am philosophizing after a lengthy pub crawl.
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Players will often use the path of least resistance.|
Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Between nukes, new snipes, and whatnot, I'm somewhat concerned about the future difficulty of the game. At that point, +4 enemies won't be lasting long at all, especially on a team.
The funny thing is, I absolutely love these changes. Turning useless powers into useful is always A+ in my book. But what about the enemies? This game is already widely regarded as fairly easy at high levels, especially on teams. Any easier, and I'm unsure how much fun the game will sustain for me over any extended period of time. Being a superhero/villain is great and all, but not if taking down hordes of villains/heroes is as difficult as punting kittens or playing ping pong with a blind person. Hyperbole aside, what does everyone think? Is the difficulty too easy? Should it change and if so, how? Personally, I hope they let us up the difficulty past +4 or something like that. With incarnate levels, we're already maxed out fighting mere +1s in Dark Astoria. I'm all for more difficult factions such as those in Night Ward, but implementing more difficult challenges in this way limits what enemy groups we can sink our teeth into, further relegating old enemy factions to "Council" status (i.e. good for farming, but not any challenge for most). |
If you make enemies tougher, you'll find people will just move on to the next easiest mob. Look what happened to Freakshow....they were everyone's favorite punching bags. Then they added in super stunners. Now, they are not as popular.
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Absolutely! We're just talking about more options. Specifically higher difficulty levels, but lower difficulty levels were also mentioned if the devs can figure out how to balance the rewards.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If they do anything, it needs to be *optional.*
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
That said, I *also* want more stuff that "If you go along like you have been, facerolling your way through content, you WILL have problems here." Create more enemies you don't WANT clustered for AOEs - because they'll buff each other to ridiculous extents.
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I whine about it, but Vengeance is one of the things that makes Nemesis interesting - unless you're on facerolling difficulty, you need to save the lieutenants for last, and if they're clustered in a group, you may not be able to just cut loose with a ton of AoE. What you don't want left at the end are half the lieutenants and a few Nemesis bosses buffed into the stratosphere. I'm guessing good teams just steamroll them, though.
As I recall, Rularuu Brutes have similar requirements. I believe the lieutenants heal, and when the minions go down they give a damage buff. So solo at least, you want to kill the lieutenants first, then the bosses, then the minions. I might have the particulars wrong, but I remember them being a lot harder if you didn't kill them in the right order. Nobody fights Rularuu, of course.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
for instance, Max's DA arc. If you do the prep work, it'll be easier. If not, you'll face everything.
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From all the agreement, though, it sounds like they really nailed that arc. And even for me, it's one of my favorite missions right now.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Awww, the Super Stunners make the Freakshow more interesting! I agree, though; they're not quite the punching bags they used to be. But they're nothing that inspirations can't handle. But yeah, if I'm just street sweeping for XP, I'll pick a group with a Tank over a group with a Super Stunner any day.|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
Players will often use the path of least resistance.
If you make enemies tougher, you'll find people will just move on to the next easiest mob. Look what happened to Freakshow....they were everyone's favorite punching bags. Then they added in super stunners. Now, they are not as popular. |
Fifth Column/Council have always been my favorite punching bags, though. They're easy, and who doesn't like beating up Nazis?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Pretty much what the goat said.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I haven't noticed *anything* lasting long on a (good) team throughout the entire history of the game.
I see these changes mainly benefiting soloists- on a team, it's just overkill. But the ATs benefiting most from the changes still won't be casually blasting through high difficulty farm maps- they're still "squishies". In the case of blasters, they've long been at the bottom of the food chain. Even a fairly huge buff isn't going to make them 'overpowered'. The basic flaw of the AT (no inherent mez defenses in a game with a whole lot of mez) remains in place. And given the historically cautious approach the devs take to any sort of buff I doubt any of this stuff is the result of 4am philosophizing after a lengthy pub crawl. |
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Difficulty in this game can be an utter joke with the proper team. X4/+8 just doesn't cut it anymore. Scaling difficulty needs to be reconsidered. While not every team can run +4/x8, as time goes on, the closer you get to 50 (+incarnate crap) the easier and easier it becomes. Whats the point of this Incarnate stuff if you can't test it against truly powerful enemies?
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For every player that wants more challenging things to fight.....there will be 3 that whine when their Incarnate character gets owned when they try to button mash their way through something instead of approaching it with caution. Look at how many times people have complained that enemy group X is cheating because they actually lost a fight with them. There is never any question of "what should I be doing different?" it's always "I jumped into a mob and died...they're CHEATING!" |
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Whats the point of this Incarnate stuff if you can't test it against truly powerful enemies?
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Most players I've seen don't want to become Incarnates in order to fight harder stuff....they want to become them in order to trivialize the stuff they were already fighting.
Sad....but true.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The key words are "proper team". A normal PUG leveling up, using mostly SOs or plain IOs, will not roll over +4 x 8. I've been on some truely awful, uncoordinated teams that had difficulty at +0.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Difficulty in this game can be an utter joke with the proper team. X4/+8 just doesn't cut it anymore. Scaling difficulty needs to be reconsidered. While not every team can run +4/x8, as time goes on, the closer you get to 50 (+incarnate crap) the easier and easier it becomes.
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| Whats the point of this Incarnate stuff if you can't test it against truly powerful enemies? |
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Amen to that!|
Originally Posted by _Klaw_
Also it's pay to win now.
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BTW, how much does it cost to get the upgraded snipe powers?
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That's because the devs sold Incarnates as near godhood. You can't fault the players for expecting to get what was implied.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
For every player that wants more challenging things to fight.....there will be 3 that whine when their Incarnate character gets owned when they try to button mash their way through something instead of approaching it with caution. Look at how many times people have complained that enemy group X is cheating because they actually lost a fight with them. There is never any question of "what should I be doing different?" it's always "I jumped into a mob and died...they're CHEATING!"
Most players I've seen don't want to become Incarnates in order to fight harder stuff....they want to become them in order to trivialize the stuff they were already fighting. Sad....but true. |
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I wish there was a non-incarnate mode or Alpha only mode for TFs that can be run at 45+. Though no one else would use it and it can be simulated by not running TFs that exemplar above 44.|
Originally Posted by Hercules
I have suggested in the forums before that they provide an incarnate mode for regular TFs, where the mobs and the bosses are ramped up for added difficulty - but probably not going to happen - usage of the trial content would plummet.
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Of course I also wished that the Alpha system was expanded to cover all slots so there'd be some other way than Heather Heather Heather ... for someone who loathes raiding. So it's T3 Alpha and done for me.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Most players I've seen don't want to become Incarnates in order to fight harder stuff....they want to become them in order to trivialize the stuff they were already fighting.
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Question: |
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That's because the devs sold Incarnates as near godhood. You can't fault the players for expecting to get what was implied.
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Would people respect Superman if he used his godlike powers to beat up muggers that posed zero threat to him, while balking at the idea of fighting something that can hurt him?
Not likely.
That's what I'm seeing a lot of. People becoming Superman and beating up carjackers instead of fighting something that can fight back.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Everyone needs to accept that there's always someone stronger than [you].|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Question:
Would people respect Superman if he used his godlike powers to beat up muggers that posed zero threat to him, while balking at the idea of fighting something that can hurt him? Not likely. That's what I'm seeing a lot of. People becoming Superman and beating up carjackers instead of fighting something that can fight back. |
In Supes' case, Batman and Zod.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
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Superman beating up carjackers is its own brand of fun. My main endgame settings these days are +0x1, +0x8 and +4x8. Burning through missions for rewards, facerolling crowds to relax and get drops, or something nasty for the fun of it. No real in between settings. It just depends on my mood.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's what I'm seeing a lot of. People becoming Superman and beating up carjackers instead of fighting something that can fight back.
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Leveling up tends to be as hard as I can do comfortably and predictably. Not really facerolling, but not really a big threat either. Dying once per hour or so, maybe.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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You do become a god. Just a small god.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
That's because the devs sold Incarnates as near godhood. You can't fault the players for expecting to get what was implied.
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(Edit: Or maybe not. People can already show up in Atlas with their level 1 characters, set it to +4x8, and get smeared in seconds on the first spawn of their mission, over and over. Either that's not happening, or people are smart enough to realize that you don't just crank the game to the max from the start.)
How about this idea? Allow players to unlock the increased difficulty levels as they gain incarnate levels. So essentially, unlock the Lore incarnate level and unlock an "Incarnate difficulty" level available in the difficulty NPC. If the concern is that new players can still see the higher difficulties available (even if they can't select them), make them invisible until unlocked.
A side effect would be that accessing and changing incarnate difficulty levels is limited to incarnate toons only, so while non-incarnate toons could join these teams, they couldn't set the difficulty up that high. Which is fine. Doesn't really affect anything, but still a side effect worth mentioning.
What do you think of that? That way, new players don't dive in to +8 and immediately get slaughtered, but veterans can still take their main toons into new and uncharted difficulties.