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Tornado; especially multiple Tornadoes. (Bonfire would be like spreading out a team of lumberjacks to level forest with hand axes; Tornado would be akin to having a more closely cluster of lumberjacks tackling the same forest with chainsaws)|
Originally Posted by The_Laughing_Man
Just to confirm that my Fire/Storm put her version in Bonfire last night and it's... lovely.
Bonfire + Freezing Rain = flippety floppety fun. The question is... I like Tornado and I like Bonfire. But which is better? -H |
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
The irony is that Fire trollers will have to learn to stop spamming Fire Cages to take best advantage of the kd patch. Ironic because it's always been Fire trollers negating kd patches for my ice and earth trollers/doms.
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I was responding to the part of your post where you said:|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I reread my post and didn't see where I stated that Cinders was better than VG. What I did say is that Fire now has everything Earth has for hard control (aoe stun on 90 second timer, kd patch that recharges faster for Fire, aoe hold on 240 second timer). Fact, not opinion. I also didn't state that Fire had surpassed Earth in general for control, rather that it contends for the top. That part is an opinion, one that has merit.
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| So now Fire has everything Earth has, at least for hard control, just with more damage. |
Volcanic Gasses is a ranged persistant patch that uses pseudo pets to stack holds for a total of 60 seconds, allowing it to catch any foes entering the area and to even hold bosses. And it does very minimal damage, but can take damage sets. Add procs to VG and you get a lot more chances for those procs to hit due to the generation of pseudo pets and the long duration and because it can take a lot of different procs.
Cinders is a PB AoE one-shot hold. It has a base duration of 14.9 seconds with a 20% chance to "overpower" and hold a boss.
I think those facts lead to a reasonable opinion that Earth is still better for control.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
This just adds more of a plus to Fire Control. I like how when I was flailing around about how awesome this will be in Bonfire months before everyone ignored me...now they're all shocked and want it n their build...just how many of you have me on ignore?! lmao
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I think I might have a Fire/Earth Dom gathering dust that would get more mileage out of slotting it Bonfire than my /Storm (would probably end up respec'ing out of Cages though)
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
This just adds more of a plus to Fire Control. I like how when I was flailing around about how awesome this will be in Bonfire months before everyone ignored me...now they're all shocked and want it n their build...just how many of you have me on ignore?! lmao
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Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Though I appreciate the explanation of the mechanics of powers from powersets I've taken to 50 several times across the 2 ATs, it doesn't change the fact that I never said Cinders was better. Bottom line - both are aoe holds with a 240 second timer. Every control set gets this, all of them. How they do it varies - ranged aoe, pbaoe, patch, but the recharge stats are all the same. I'll say again that I never stated "Fire control is now better than Earth control"? Please note the use of the word "contend". "Germany contended for the 2012 Euro Cup" does not mean they won. Likewise, that Fire now contends for the top spot does not mean it is the best.
Now... it's your turn to explain how VG is better than Cinders, even though that was never a point of contention.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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More likely that people wereholding their breath to see if the Dev's locked Bonfire out from using the proc before chattering too much about it. I've seen others mention it before it went live. I didn't say anything because I don't have anyone with Bonfire, and thus it didn't really matter to me.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
This just adds more of a plus to Fire Control. I like how when I was flailing around about how awesome this will be in Bonfire months before everyone ignored me...now they're all shocked and want it n their build...just how many of you have me on ignore?! lmao
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But there, proof at least one person doesn't have you on ignore...
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Oh wow how did I forget my Fire/earth Dom?! Good call! I love the Fire/Earth combo but it's hard to survive 1-49...plus as you said a Fire/Earth dom doesn't need cages anyway. Thanks!|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I think I might have a Fire/Earth Dom gathering dust that would get more mileage out of slotting it Bonfire than my /Storm (would probably end up respec'ing out of Cages though)
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Originally Posted by BViking
More likely that people wereholding their breath to see if the Dev's locked Bonfire out from using the proc before chattering too much about it. I've seen others mention it before it went live. I didn't say anything because I don't have anyone with Bonfire, and thus it didn't really matter to me.
But there, proof at least one person doesn't have you on ignore... |
I don't see what the big fuss is about Bonfire being OP'd...even I thought the same thing at first but then I had to think about it...currently the IO is broken (it doesn't make a power KD if it is not already KB natured) If the IO KD like it was supposed to can you imagine PSW with KD...suddenly Bonfire looks like a meek little kitten doesn't it?
Imagine Engulfing Darkness, Ice Sword Circle, Thornburst, Spin all with KD...yeah Bonfire is the LEAST of our nerfing worries lol.
But Bonfire with the proc is incredibly sexy indeed.
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I've done 3 and got it once.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Are you kidding me!?! I've done over 25 runs and I have only scored it once! Wow! lol
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But I got it in my dark/dark tanker who has no use for it, not my fire/rad controller who wants it for bonfire
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Thankfully you can mail it to yourself. Or just wait until you're able to be put on the market...I would imagine it would sell for ...probably the price of Coercive Persuasion: Confuse (Superior) or more!|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I've done 3 and got it once.
But I got it in my dark/dark tanker who has no use for it, not my fire/rad controller who wants it for bonfire |
And you suck 30+ runs now and I have yet to see a second proc lol.
The ideal place for that proc is Bonfire on a Blaster or Mastermind. You don't need Containment or lose out on the -kb by spamming cages. The relative imbalance of this relative to Ice Slick is intriguing though. My Blasters will have a significantly more reliable knockdown patch than my Ice Control characters.
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Well there's been rumors of them fixing Ice Control for some time now...but sadly it's only rumors and just posts of them saying that they want to fix it *sigh*.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The ideal place for that proc is Bonfire on a Blaster or Mastermind. You don't need Containment or lose out on the -kb by spamming cages. The relative imbalance of this relative to Ice Slick is intriguing though. My Blasters will have a significantly more reliable knockdown patch than my Ice Control characters.
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Bonfire on MMs and Blasters only takes 70% Recharge and three Rech. IO's to make it perma on a level 50...it takes a little more recharge than that for ice slick lol.
I don't want to turn nother' thread into an ice control thread again but I've always thought that Ice Slick should have it's recharge halved and it should deal -Def and -Res...maybe -30 Res...even with that increase I don't think that it would make the set OP.
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I'm currently running 2 for 14, slightly less often than the expected 1 in 6, but 14 runs is hardly a statistically significant sample.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I've done 3 and got it once.
But I got it in my dark/dark tanker who has no use for it, not my fire/rad controller who wants it for bonfire |
First one dropped on my Humanform Peacebringer, exactly where I wanted one. The other dropped on my Electrical/Fire/Fire Tank, who lacks any form of KB generating power whatsoever. I mailed it to my Illusion/Time Controller.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Well there's been rumors of them fixing Ice Control for some time now...but sadly it's only rumors and just posts of them saying that they want to fix it *sigh*.
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I only picked on Ice Slick because it is the "best" of the patch powers in terms of knockdown. The relative power of each of them is like this:
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Knock /2 sec Recharge Duration Ice Slick 56% 90 30 Earthquake 51% 90 30 Bonfire 100% 60 45
This is based on Ice Slick and Earthquake ticking 5 times per second, with 8% and 7% chances of knock. This is also relatively the same as throwing balance completely out the window. But, they were warned. Maybe I can exploit this on a Mastermind before they fix it. MMs have a longer recharge on Bonfire than Controllers but thats unlikely to matter. Some people probablywon't see the issue, but this kind of makes discussions about balancing powers like Jolting Chain and the battle to get 5 target knockdown in Propel very silly in comparison. The knockdown in Bonfire triggers slightly faster than Jolting Chain can animate one time.
Note that if my calculations are right, Bonfire is better than putting two Ice Slicks or Earthquakes on top of each other.
This is assuming it actually works. I hope to know shortly.
PS I didn't post numbers for Liquefy or Oil Slick Arrow because that's just too depressing.
out of the ~30 runs ive done ive only gotten 3 kb converters lol
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To be honest I like the Converted in Bonfire and I don't think they should change it one bit.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I only picked on Ice Slick because it is the "best" of the patch powers in terms of knockdown. The relative power of each of them is like this:
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Knock /2 sec Recharge Duration Ice Slick 56% 90 30 Earthquake 51% 90 30 Bonfire 100% 60 45 Note that if my calculations are right, Bonfire is better than putting two Ice Slicks or Earthquakes on top of each other. This is assuming it actually works. I hope to know shortly. PS I didn't post numbers for Liquefy or Oil Slick Arrow because that's just too depressing. |
Earthquake could stand to tick more and have less recharge but it's still pretty good. -10 To Hit and Defense and KD
But Ice Slick *Shakes Head* Since it only KDs it should be on a super low timer or have 100% guaranteed KD.
OSA is pretty amazing but Liquefy is a little sad and it's not that impressive for a Tier 9 power...it's nothing like Overgrowth but I think that a lot of the Defender Primaries need some looking at...way more than any melee stuff.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
To be honest I like the Converted in Bonfire and I don't think they should change it one bit.
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IMO if they are going to keep it they should at least put damage in Wormhole so that it can slot the set as well. Being stuck with knockback there while Fire Control, of all things, gets a huge buff just kind of makes me feel like we wasted our time commenting on Gravity. I'm not ungrateful for the work the developers do, but if this doesnt finally get the nerf bat to swing at Fire Control in earnest I'm not sure what it would take. From the beta they were pretty adamant about Wormhole being stuck with its knockback so I really dont know what to think of this.
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I agree 1000% about wormhole. I still have yet to roll another Gravity toon...and I have several toons of every control set.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
IMO if they are going to keep it they should at least put damage in Wormhole so that it can slot the set as well. Being stuck with knockback there while Fire Control, of all things, gets a huge buff just kind of makes me feel like we wasted our time commenting on Gravity. I'm not ungrateful for the work the developers do, but if this doesnt finally get the nerf bat to swing at Fire Control in earnest I'm not sure what it would take. From the beta they were pretty adamant about Wormhole being stuck with its knockback so I really dont know what to think of this.
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I agree with this to some degree. It definitely shifts the high end performance for Fire Control; even if you spam Fire Cages on top of Bonfire this makes it so much less unruly. I don't, however, see it as a direct buff to Fire control because it's only a buff for some. After the event ends I expect the prices on this particular enhancement will compete with some purple and pvp IOs. It will be a buff for some... but I expect far from the majority. With that in mind, I don't think this should lead to any kind of nerf for Fire. Balance should be centered around a set's average performance rather than an outlier caused by a single enhancement, especially if that enhancement isn't readily available throughout the year. More directly, a nerf for Fire isn't necessary, but perhaps one for this enhancement is.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
IMO if they are going to keep it they should at least put damage in Wormhole so that it can slot the set as well. Being stuck with knockback there while Fire Control, of all things, gets a huge buff just kind of makes me feel like we wasted our time commenting on Gravity. I'm not ungrateful for the work the developers do, but if this doesnt finally get the nerf bat to swing at Fire Control in earnest I'm not sure what it would take. From the beta they were pretty adamant about Wormhole being stuck with its knockback so I really dont know what to think of this.
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Secondly, I do think this demonstrates a lack of forethought on the devs' part. If knockback and, as a result, ease of use are balance concerns it's foolish to put an enhancement of this play altering magnitude into such a broad category. It's a broad stroke for something that should have been finely targeted.
Wow Ketch...I did not expect for you to say no to nerfing the KD proc in Bonfire 
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Well, to clarify a bit, my stance is no to a nerf to Fire Control, particularly if it's spurred on by this enhancement. If I had my druthers this enhancement wouldn't be limited to this set (and subsequently the powers that take it) and certainly not unique. I'd like to see a generic knockback to knockdown enhancement. Ideally it would be its own category of IO, separate from knockback enhancement, so that it could be targeted at specific powers.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Wow Ketch...I did not expect for you to say no to nerfing the KD proc in Bonfire
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Also, I most definitely agree letting us convert knockback to knockdown in Wormhole isn't going to overpower Wormhole in any shape or form.
10 runs, zero procs.
I pulled out my Fire/Rad this afternoon and slotted the knockback-2-knockdown proc in Bonfire's only slot . . . and wow. It is sooooo nice. Now I have to figure out how I can squeeze some slots out of my build to add some damage to Bonfire. I only see one slot that I can free up . . .
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Originally Posted by ketch
Well, to clarify a bit, my stance is no to a nerf to Fire Control, particularly if it's spurred on by this enhancement. If I had my druthers this enhancement wouldn't be limited to this set (and subsequently the powers that take it) and certainly not unique. I'd like to see a generic knockback to knockdown enhancement. Ideally it would be its own category of IO, separate from knockback enhancement, so that it could be targeted at specific powers.
Also, I most definitely agree letting us convert knockback to knockdown in Wormhole isn't going to overpower Wormhole in any shape or form. |
I understand and respect your point. By "nerf" I mainly mean removing this capaility from this power.
A very similar ability actually used to exist in two powers that are cousins of Bonfire: Repel (in Kinetics) and Repulsion Field (Force Field). These powers used to be affected by the purple patch so that if enemies were sufficiently high level above you, the power converted to knockdown and you could bounce them in place. This capability was intentionally edited out of the game by flagging these powers to always cause knockback because this was deemed too powerful.
Overall I agree with your contention that they are painting with too broad a brush. If Bonfire stays, there are several other powers that deserve such a massive and arbitrary increase in power. Overall, my feeling is that if something is so powerful they would never intentionally give it to us in a power, than achieving it just because "it's an IO" (my paraphrase) is not justifiable. Can you imagine if Repulsion Field caused knockdown? That's what Bonfire is, but with a bigger radius and damage. We're left with the impression that if only Repulsion Field caused a minor amount of damage (ie been better than it is), it would have benefitted from this change. For such a huge boost in power, I find that to be a frustrating outcome.
One weird thing about this proc is slotting it in Jolting Chain probably fixes it so low level enemies don't end up scattering.
But again, I think we all have to remember Bonfire on Controller's is the weakest case. It's on Masterminds and Blasters, who have no Containment needs or need to spam Fire Cages for damage, where this is likely extremely overpowered. My lone lvl 50 Blaster has Bonfire so I plan to find out.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)