Ice Blast suggestion post Issue 24
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-26 09:03 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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It would be better overall for blasters if they dropped the to hit mechanic and just used defiance. Thematically the second or third shot at a target is easier than the first. It also puts blasters on a more equal footing with defenders and corruptors for gaining the benefit.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Ice Blast will not benefit from the Sniper Blast changes. OK, that's understandable since it has no snipe. However, Ice Blast does have a power that seems to take the place of the snipe and that's Bitter Freeze Ray (BFR). BFR does 1.32 DS with a 15.184 endurance cost and a 20 second recharge. It also applies a 3 magnitude hold and recharge and movement slow.
Based on the damage formula and taking aside the secondary effects, BFR should do 2.92 DS based on its endurance cost and 3.56 DS based on its recharge. Taking the 2.92 number for a second that means that BFR pays for its secondary effects with a 1.6 reduction in damage scalar. Although it isn't part of the classic calculation, BFR also has a very long 2.5 seconds cast time. Ice Blast isn't falling behind because of any changes to it, the rest of the sets are surging ahead. The reason is the snipe. So why not just give BFR a damage boost and give it the snipe treatment. THE SUGGESTION Increase BFR damage scale to 2.76; Increase BFR's endurance costs to 18.512; When character's to-hit meets or exceeds 97% BFR has an alternate 1 second animation time. That's it. BFR pays for it's hold with a 0.8 reduction in DS based on both endurance and recharge. It gets a snipe strength attack. I recognize that without the 97% to-hit, BFR is better than the snipes on animation time, but it still costs more, recharges significantly slower, and has a much lower range. |
Considering how specifically a non-Devices Blaster has to slot and/or team in order to reach 22% To Hit, I do not see Ice Blast being left that far behind in terms of performance, if at all.
While I very much like the look of your proposed change, and my negative opinion of the 22% mechanic notwithstanding, I do not mind waiting to see if such a change is necessary for performance.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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I have concerns about how the mechanic affects the relative balance between Blasters and other ranged damage dealers as well. However, I'm assuming that the to-hit thing goes through for the other sets.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
It would be better overall for blasters if they dropped the to hit mechanic and just used defiance. Thematically the second or third shot at a target is easier than the first. It also puts blasters on a more equal footing with defenders and corruptors for gaining the benefit.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
An additional change that I'd like to see...
Get rid of the 1.67 cast time for Ice Blast on all versions that came as a part of Defiance 2.0 and go back to the 1 second cast time that it started as (and at the time, Corruptors were told that they would be keeping - as they got no benefit from Defiance 2.0 and didn't need to have the power nerfed - before the Corruptor version was changed to 1.67 seconds when Defenders got the slower Blaster animation times on the set). I hate having the extra half-second hitch in my attack chain where I'm waiting for nothing (one of two reasons I hated weapon sets when they had baked-in redraw times; now it's just how much it messes with the animations on the female model).
Does it mean that an Ice Blast Blaster will get a slight DPA advantage when mezzed compared to one that doesn't? Yes, but you only have 3 powers to use so it's all about cycle time at that point anyway and you don't get a fast snipe.
While you're at it, trim at least 1 second off of Shout's cast time in Sonic Blast so that it gets some DPA help also. It doesn't have a snipe either.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I'm interested to see how things shake out. Folks are laser focused on the soloists ability to hit 97%, but I'm wondering if this is going to supercharge tactics as a build choice. It was always popular, but if you have three ATs who now have a very high benefit to taking this power, it might become ubiquitous.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
Considering how specifically a non-Devices Blaster has to slot and/or team in order to reach 22% To Hit, I do not see Ice Blast being left that far behind in terms of performance, if at all.
While I very much like the look of your proposed change, and my negative opinion of the 22% mechanic notwithstanding, I do not mind waiting to see if such a change is necessary for performance. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
before the Corruptor version was changed to 1.67 seconds when Defenders got the slower Blaster animation times on the set
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I had no idea they had nerfed the corruptor version. What an odd thing to do. Fire Blast kept its faster animation on corruptors and defenders (and dominators) so it seems very odd Ice was altered. In addition Dominators still have the faster casting Ice Blast.
I'd rather not see a fast cast version of BFR, personally. I'd love if it got changed to a 14s recharge, 13.52 end cost, 2.6 damage attack and the hold duration was upped to 11.92s (but the Hold duration increase is something I want across the board for blasters). That would be awesome.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Uh... I just cycle Aim and Build Up such that they're available about 90% of the time.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
Considering how specifically a non-Devices Blaster has to slot and/or team in order to reach 22% To Hit, I do not see Ice Blast being left that far behind in terms of performance, if at all.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I'm disappointed that they didn't get Defenders the faster animation when it was ported to them, and they never announced the change to the Corruptor version. I think that someone thought it was fixing a discrepancy rather than causing one, but I noticed it the first time I played Ice Blast after the change - which happened to be a while after it changed, since I was leveling other characters at the time. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I had no idea they had nerfed the corruptor version. What an odd thing to do. Fire Blast kept its faster animation on corruptors and defenders (and dominators) so it seems very odd Ice was altered. In addition Dominators still have the faster casting Ice Blast. I'd rather not see a fast cast version of BFR, personally. I'd love if it got changed to a 14s recharge, 13.52 end cost, 2.6 damage attack and the hold duration was upped to 11.92s (but the Hold duration increase is something I want across the board for blasters). That would be awesome. |
An increase in damage on BFR would be nice, as would an increase in the hold duration, but given similar recharge mez powers in other sets (Stunning Shot, Beanbag, Suppressive Fire, Scramble Thoughts) and how they do negligible damage at (usually) shorter range, it probably isn't going to happen.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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...Wouldn't Freeze Ray be the power with the negligible Damage?
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
An increase in damage on BFR would be nice, as would an increase in the hold duration, but given similar recharge mez powers in other sets (Stunning Shot, Beanbag, Suppressive Fire, Scramble Thoughts) and how they do negligible damage at (usually) shorter range, it probably isn't going to happen.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Yes, but Freeze Ray has a shorter recharge to go with its negligible damage. I didn't list Tesla Cage with the others for the same reason.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
...Wouldn't Freeze Ray be the power with the negligible Damage?
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BFR is like the old Siphon Life - it was treated as a utility power, which means that it doesn't fit the formula for how much damage it does and it costs more endurance than the other powers listed above with the same recharge and - with the exception of Suppressive Fire - longer mez duration.
Based on BFR's damage, you could state that it should have a 6 second (scale 1.32 blast recharge - see Dual Wield) recharge and should cost 6.864 endurance; looking at the Control primaries you get scale 1 damage and a larger scale (12 vs 8) hold on an 8 second recharge at 8.528 endurance. So why are any of those other powers at 20 second recharge and cost 10.192 endurance, let alone Bitter Freeze Ray at 15.184?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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There is no question that a looming dichotomy for sets with and without Snipes will happen. I think that every set that lacks a Snipe skill should have their mezzing attack made into a viable high damage attack-- just like how they buffed Clobber for War Mace . This would include Dual Pistols, Ice, and Sonic. Water Blast might need a buff somewhere too, along with any other Snipe-less sets that have slipped my mind.
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The Snipe change as proposed all but mandates that a blast set include a snipe from now on. IMO, this wasn't the way to fix snipes, but it's better than nothing....I guess.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
There is no question that a looming dichotomy for sets with and without Snipes will happen. I think that every set that lacks a Snipe skill should have their mezzing attack made into a viable high damage attack-- just like how they buffed Clobber for War Mace . This would include Dual Pistols, Ice, and Sonic. Water Blast might need a buff somewhere too, along with any other Snipe-less sets that have slipped my mind.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Ice Blast will not benefit from the Sniper Blast changes. OK, that's understandable since it has no snipe. However, Ice Blast does have a power that seems to take the place of the snipe and that's Bitter Freeze Ray (BFR). BFR does 1.32 DS with a 15.184 endurance cost and a 20 second recharge. It also applies a 3 magnitude hold and recharge and movement slow.
Based on the damage formula and taking aside the secondary effects, BFR should do 2.92 DS based on its endurance cost and 3.56 DS based on its recharge. Taking the 2.92 number for a second that means that BFR pays for its secondary effects with a 1.6 reduction in damage scalar. Although it isn't part of the classic calculation, BFR also has a very long 2.5 seconds cast time. Ice Blast isn't falling behind because of any changes to it, the rest of the sets are surging ahead. The reason is the snipe. So why not just give BFR a damage boost and give it the snipe treatment. THE SUGGESTION Increase BFR damage scale to 2.76; Increase BFR's endurance costs to 18.512; When character's to-hit meets or exceeds 97% BFR has an alternate 1 second animation time. That's it. BFR pays for it's hold with a 0.8 reduction in DS based on both endurance and recharge. It gets a snipe strength attack. I recognize that without the 97% to-hit, BFR is better than the snipes on animation time, but it still costs more, recharges significantly slower, and has a much lower range. |
My biggest complaint about BFR (and Ice Patch for Blasters) is the horrendous cast time. I'd go for this is a second.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Why in the world not? BFR used to be my opener before I got IOs - but now, I don't even use it anymore, other than as a set mule because of that animation time. Freeze Ray now recharges fast enough where I can just use it twice. I would love it if they cut that useless animation time down.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I'd rather not see a fast cast version of BFR, personally. |
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
I'd love to see BFR made useful. Such an awesome animation for a rather meh power but I don't know I'd like a snipe in Ice. Especially when the snipe changes aren't set in stone.
I can definitely get behind Ice Blast getting it's old cast time back. I've felt the increase rather ruined the wonderful fluid ST chain I loved about Ice. It turned me off enough that I rarely play my Ice Blast characters anymore and even contemplated dropping the power but I knew I'd be gimping myself even further. Worse, it seems as if theres an unnecessary pause after the animation like Fire Blast had.
Something else that should be looked into would be Bitter Ice Blast. I'm not a numbers guy but if all tier 3's are normalized to 80ft., would BIB at a 12 second recharge be on the proper damage scale considering it would be losing it's 10ft advantage? Still leaves the -tohit but the standard tier 3 others set use are on a 10 second timer. Granted, BIB does a bit more damage but is it enough?
Pssst! PSSSSSSSSSSST!!!
Show some love to Water Blast, Sonic Attack, and Dual Pistols prz.
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I know, but I love that animation. Ice is already solid for single target damage and mitigation, it doesn't really need anything, so I'd hate to lose the pretty for effect. I wouldn't mind seeing the effect increased, as I suggested, but I wouldn't want the animation lost to make the current effect acceptable.
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
Why in the world not? BFR used to be my opener before I got IOs - but now, I don't even use it anymore, other than as a set mule because of that animation time.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Honestly at this point I'd favor just turning all Snipes into a standard hard hitting single target attack (with 20 second recharge and damage reduced to match) and then making all Snipe IO sets into Ranged Damage sets.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The Snipe change as proposed all but mandates that a blast set include a snipe from now on. IMO, this wasn't the way to fix snipes, but it's better than nothing....I guess.
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Sure it would violate the cottage rule but it would stop the majority of the complaints (and generate new complaints from people who like the old snipes but I figure that's a smaller number).
For BFR I would say just increase the damage to where it "should" be for a 20 second recharge attack (which I suppose is supposed to be somewhat less than the 2.76 used for snipes). Lancer Shot has a Stun with the same duration and it doesn't pay for it with reduced damage. If people really feel that's to much at least make it damage scale 2.12. Then it has the same damage scale as a 12 second recharge attack on a 20 second recharge.
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I'm coming to a similar conclusion. Corruptors and Defenders get fast snipes far to easily while many Blasters are going to have to carry yellows to have access to it for more than when Build Up/Aim are on cooldown. That's just plain not fair. Of course as buff/debuff sets, they should be better at buffing to-hit, but they should not be able to leverage that into a major damage enhancement more easily than Blasters.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Honestly at this point I'd favor just turning all Snipes into a standard hard hitting single target attack (with 20 second recharge and damage reduced to match) and then making all Snipe IO sets into Ranged Damage sets.
Sure it would violate the cottage rule but it would stop the majority of the complaints (and generate new complaints from people who like the old snipes but I figure that's a smaller number). For BFR I would say just increase the damage to where it "should" be for a 20 second recharge attack (which I suppose is supposed to be somewhat less than the 2.76 used for snipes). Lancer Shot has a Stun with the same duration and it doesn't pay for it with reduced damage. If people really feel that's to much at least make it damage scale 2.12. Then it has the same damage scale as a 12 second recharge attack on a 20 second recharge. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'm not really seeing the snipe change as a major improvement myself. It's better than current snipe, and if you can leverage it, it will improve your damage, but not by so much it's a balance shift here.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm coming to a similar conclusion. Corruptors and Defenders get fast snipes far to easily while many Blasters are going to have to carry yellows to have access to it for more than when Build Up/Aim are on cooldown. That's just plain not fair. Of course as buff/debuff sets, they should be better at buffing to-hit, but they should not be able to leverage that into a major damage enhancement more easily than Blasters.
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Even still, I find just having a Blaster pull the 'one yellow from cap' trick is fine. Supplement with Aim as needed and you're not really losing anything. It's like a SR character who is over cap to all positions doesn't really have a use for purples much, but to Elec or Dark Armor, it turns them into gods.
So a corruptor or defender can pull off 22% ToHit without inspirations? Well, those yellows go back to being useless as always.
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Technically, if the recharge was bumped to 20 seconds, the damage should increase. 20 seconds asks for a 3.56 scale attack. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Honestly at this point I'd favor just turning all Snipes into a standard hard hitting single target attack (with 20 second recharge and damage reduced to match) and then making all Snipe IO sets into Ranged Damage sets.
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While BFR at 3.56 scale and 20 second recharge could work, I still think reducing the recharge to 14s for a 2.6 scale attack is the way to go.
It's kind of funny. My request is a huge buff. Double the damage, reduce the recharge by 6 seconds, lower the end cost, and increase the hold duration. But people focus on the fact that I want to keep the current animation. With the current animation, an 80 foot range, 2.6 damage scale attack with a mag 3 hold on a base duration of ~12 seconds and 14 second recharge is a phenomenal power (plus it adds to the slows as well).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Ummm... oops |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Technically, if the recharge was bumped to 20 seconds, the damage should increase. 20 seconds asks for a 3.56 scale attack.
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. For some reason I was thinking that snipes had a 20 second recharge time rather than the 12 seconds that they actually have. So what is the damage formula anyway? People always talk about it but I've never actually seen it.So going back to my original point I wouldn't advocate making BFR a 3.56 scale attack that would be a bit silly. I would say drop the recharge and up the damage somewhat though. Maybe make it a 12-14 recharge time with a 2.12 damage scale (same as 10 second recharge attacks)
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I always reference it in the Scrapper Issues List thread.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So what is the damage formula anyway? People always talk about it but I've never actually seen it.
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Originally Posted by Stupid_Fanboy
The following equations are the ones used to create costs for attack powers in PVE (powers whose primary function is damage)
AREAMOD = (1+(0.75*(RADIUS/5))-(((0.011*(RADIUS/6))*(360-ARC))/5) DMG = (0.2*((RECH*0.8)+1.8)) / AREAMOD END = 5.2 * DMG - have fun with these guys -SF |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Thanks.
Ice Blast will not benefit from the Sniper Blast changes. OK, that's understandable since it has no snipe. However, Ice Blast does have a power that seems to take the place of the snipe and that's Bitter Freeze Ray (BFR). BFR does 1.32 DS with a 15.184 endurance cost and a 20 second recharge. It also applies a 3 magnitude hold and recharge and movement slow.
Based on the damage formula and taking aside the secondary effects, BFR should do 2.92 DS based on its endurance cost and 3.56 DS based on its recharge. Taking the 2.92 number for a second that means that BFR pays for its secondary effects with a 1.6 reduction in damage scalar. Although it isn't part of the classic calculation, BFR also has a very long 2.5 seconds cast time.
Ice Blast isn't falling behind because of any changes to it, the rest of the sets are surging ahead. The reason is the snipe. So why not just give BFR a damage boost and give it the snipe treatment.
THE SUGGESTION
Increase BFR damage scale to 2.76;
Increase BFR's endurance costs to 18.512;
When character's to-hit meets or exceeds 97% BFR has an alternate 1 second animation time.
That's it. BFR pays for it's hold with a 0.8 reduction in DS based on both endurance and recharge. It gets a snipe strength attack. I recognize that without the 97% to-hit, BFR is better than the snipes on animation time, but it still costs more, recharges significantly slower, and has a much lower range.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.