Ice Blast suggestion post Issue 24
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-26 09:03 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Curiously enough, Dominator Snipes were already changed to 20second attacks, with 3.56scale damage.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Technically, if the recharge was bumped to 20 seconds, the damage should increase. 20 seconds asks for a 3.56 scale attack.
While BFR at 3.56 scale and 20 second recharge could work, I still think reducing the recharge to 14s for a 2.6 scale attack is the way to go. |
Which means their only bonus for being interruptable is the added range... which is almost entirely irrelevant if you're in a situation where they could be interrupted.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
So going back to my original point I wouldn't advocate making BFR a 3.56 scale attack that would be a bit silly. I would say drop the recharge and up the damage somewhat though. Maybe make it a 12-14 recharge time with a 2.12 damage scale (same as 10 second recharge attacks)
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It's pretty typical for Melee sets to top out with a 20second/3.56scale or 15second/2.76scale attack. Why are Blast sets limited to (typically) 10-12second/2.12scale attacks?
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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A couple of reasons. First it would be the only blast set to get an attack that strong which kind plays with the balance. Secondly it would make it simultaneously the strongest attack in the set AND a hold which seems a bit to good. Thirdly my understanding from comments Arcana has made is that blast sets are deliberately designed to have lower DPAs than melee sets so giving them 15 second or 20 second recharge blasts would go against that.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I'm honestly somewhat curious about this sentiment. Why would it be silly?
It's pretty typical for Melee sets to top out with a 20second/3.56scale or 15second/2.76scale attack. Why are Blast sets limited to (typically) 10-12second/2.12scale attacks? |
Now if all of the snipes were changed to straight attacks with a 20 second recharge then it might make sense for BFR to have a damage somewhere near the level it should be for a 20 second recharge attack but unless that happens I don't think it should be an outlier like that.
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With regard to DPA, that's the general rule, but of course exceptions are made: the aforementioned Blaze, and the insta-snipes themselves, have much higher than normal DPA.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
A couple of reasons. First it would be the only blast set to get an attack that strong which kind plays with the balance. Secondly it would make it simultaneously the strongest attack in the set AND a hold which seems a bit to good. Thirdly my understanding from comments Arcana has made is that blast sets are deliberately designed to have lower DPAs than melee sets so giving them 15 second or 20 second recharge blasts would go against that.
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I would be cool with blast set snipes as a 20 second recharge power. I'd prefer BFR at the shorter recharge (even though it is currently at 20 seconds).
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
Curiously enough, Dominator Snipes were already changed to 20second attacks, with 3.56scale damage.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Seismic Smash, Crushing Uppercut, and Knockout Blow all scoff at your assessment that the strongest attack in a set shouldn't have a hold.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Secondly it would make it simultaneously the strongest attack in the set AND a hold which seems a bit to good.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I could've sworn the Devs said sets without snipes got something as well out of the blast changes.
Is there a reason everyone seems to forget this?
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Don't forget Lancer Shot in Beam Rifle (ok, technically Penetrating Ray is higher damage but it's also a snipe). |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Seismic Smash, Crushing Uppercut, and Knockout Blow all scoff at your assessment that the strongest attack in a set shouldn't have a hold.
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In any case, I never said that the strongest attack in the set shouldn't also be a mez; I said that I felt it was wrong for BFR to be both the strongest attack and a mez and there is an important distinction between the two statements. Speaking for myself I think that making BFR deal more damage than Bitter Freeze Blast would upset the internal dynamics of the set but that's a personal opinion so you're free to disagree with it. My inclination would be to give BFR damage more in tune with it's recharge but also decrease the recharge to avoid making it simultaneously the strongest damage and the best hold in the set. Lancer Shot has a 2.12 damage scale (same as most 10 second recharge blasts) and an 11 second recharge blast. I'd say BFR should be slightly worse than Lancer shot (since having two mezzes in a set is more than twice as good as having one) so I'd probably peg it at about 2.12 damage scale and 14 second recharge.
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I didn't really mean BFR in particular, but more "Blast sets in general" can't have normal 20second attacks. I agree that only Ice having it would be a terrible design decision.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
A couple of reasons. First it would be the only blast set to get an attack that strong which kind plays with the balance. Secondly it would make it simultaneously the strongest attack in the set AND a hold which seems a bit to good. Thirdly my understanding from comments Arcana has made is that blast sets are deliberately designed to have lower DPAs than melee sets so giving them 15 second or 20 second recharge blasts would go against that.
Now if all of the snipes were changed to straight attacks with a 20 second recharge then it might make sense for BFR to have a damage somewhere near the level it should be for a 20 second recharge attack but unless that happens I don't think it should be an outlier like that. |
Though if Blast sets as a whole were adjusted to include higher end attacks, then I honestly think BFR would be the best power to adjust this way. Bitter Ice Blast (along with Blaze) is(are) already out of line with the majority of tier3 blasts. I don't think that increasing it's damage any farther would be at all reasonable.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Ah ok. In that case it's more about the DPA issue. Personally I'd have no objection to blast sets being given 20 second recharge blasts although as I mentioned above my understanding is that this is in general against the design philosophy of Blast sets. Arcana did somewhat addressed that up above but it still sounds like an across the board change is unlikely.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I didn't really mean BFR in particular, but more "Blast sets in general" can't have normal 20second attacks. I agree that only Ice having it would be a terrible design decision.
Though if Blast sets as a whole were adjusted to include higher end attacks, then I honestly think BFR would be the best power to adjust this way. Bitter Ice Blast (along with Blaze) is(are) already out of line with the majority of tier3 blasts. I don't think that increasing it's damage any farther would be at all reasonable. |
Giving Blast sets in general 20 second recharge attacks would, IMHO, be an interesting way to buff Blast sets in general and Blasters in particular (since it would give them the option of a very strong single target alpha strike). In most sets this could replace the snipe and in Ice it could replace Bitter Freeze Ray. Pistols, Sonic and Water would be the outliers here since they lack either a snipe or a convenient power to change. One option would be to split the difference and make their third blast a 15 second recharge rather than ten second so they get a slightly stronger third attack to make up for the lack of a fourth.
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Dual Pistols and Sonic could have Suppressive Fire and Screech adjusted respectively, leaving only Water lacking. Water doesn't really have a power that could be converted into a direct equivalent, but Water Jet could be adjusted (by increasing it's base damage and removing/adjusting the lockout) to a degree to bring it up to par.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Ah ok. In that case it's more about the DPA issue. Personally I'd have no objection to blast sets being given 20 second recharge blasts although as I mentioned above my understanding is that this is in general against the design philosophy of Blast sets. Arcana did somewhat addressed that up above but it still sounds like an across the board change is unlikely.
Giving Blast sets in general 20 second recharge attacks would, IMHO, be an interesting way to buff Blast sets in general and Blasters in particular (since it would give them the option of a very strong single target alpha strike). In most sets this could replace the snipe and in Ice it could replace Bitter Freeze Ray. Pistols, Sonic and Water would be the outliers here since they lack either a snipe or a convenient power to change. One option would be to split the difference and make their third blast a 15 second recharge rather than ten second so they get a slightly stronger third attack to make up for the lack of a fourth. |
I guess ultimately I simply don't agree with the design philosophy for blast sets. Melee sets are given high end attacks, when they're already paired with sets that provide survivability. Blasters (specifically) rely on damage as their mitigation, and yet their primary damage sets are intentionally hamstrung.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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It depends how you look at it. The snipes all deal more damage per activation than the tier 3s. I am perfectly OK with BFR dealing 2.6 scale and BIB dealing 2.28 scale. Because of animation times you would have:|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
In any case, I never said that the strongest attack in the set shouldn't also be a mez; I said that I felt it was wrong for BFR to be both the strongest attack and a mez and there is an important distinction between the two statements. Speaking for myself I think that making BFR deal more damage than Bitter Freeze Blast would upset the internal dynamics of the set but that's a personal opinion so you're free to disagree with it.
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Bolt - 0.84 DS / sec
Blast - 0.89 DS / sec
BIB - 1.72 DS / sec
BFR - 0.98 DS / sec
BIB would still be substantially better for damage.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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This, basically. Even at scale 3.56 on a 20 second recharge, you'd have 2.64 arcanatime and overall DPA of 1.348 DS/sec; this makes it a good choice to use but still under BIB's 1.727.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It depends how you look at it. The snipes all deal more damage per activation than the tier 3s. I am perfectly OK with BFR dealing 2.6 scale and BIB dealing 2.28 scale. Because of animation times you would have:
Bolt - 0.84 DS / sec Blast - 0.89 DS / sec BIB - 1.72 DS / sec BFR - 0.98 DS / sec BIB would still be substantially better for damage. |
Getting rid of the lockout on Water Jet's insta-recharge would probably boost Water Blast's damage enough to at least be reasonably close in a high end build setup, and DP and Sonic were specifically mentioned as being looked at - significantly faster animations would be the way to go for those sets IMO, but many people simply love the DP animations as they are.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Nobody has faith that they'll actually do it. The sniper change looks amazing to us as players, but is relatively easy to implement and brings the sets with them closer into competition with the melee sets for single-target throughput (we're not competing with them anytime soon, mind). |
Originally Posted by Issen
I could've sworn the Devs said sets without snipes got something as well out of the blast changes.
Is there a reason everyone seems to forget this? |
The real changes that are necessary to make the game balanced - the real large-numbers-of-small-changes that is real gruntwork both from an analytical standpoint and a coding standpoint - those are the changes that the developers won't make. They're interested in maximizing the impact of their time working a project, but that structure and emphasis trends them towards being organizationally lazy, because they're rewarded for efficiency, not quality.
A good example would be one large sweeping change to an AT, like the sniper changes, without going through and going power-by-power and set-by-set to rebalance the game properly. Another one would be recognising that animation time is an important (if not predominant) factor in categorizing the current set of attacks, but not creating a method to standardize that and attach value to animation based on the intent of the AT and the set in question.
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That seems a bit melodramatic. I think most people have more belief than is warranted actually. While some few are cynical, most seem wildly hopeful.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Nobody has faith that they'll actually do it.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
The real changes that are necessary to make the game balanced - the real large-numbers-of-small-changes that is real gruntwork both from an analytical standpoint and a coding standpoint - those are the changes that the developers won't make. They're interested in maximizing the impact of their time working a project, but that structure and emphasis trends them towards being organizationally lazy, because they're rewarded for efficiency, not quality.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I'm not particularly fond of that solution. Speaking for myself I'd rather that the single target mezzes in Blast sets have their effectiveness as a mez improved rather than simply changing them all into damage powers with a mez side effect.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Dual Pistols and Sonic could have Suppressive Fire and Screech adjusted respectively, leaving only Water lacking. Water doesn't really have a power that could be converted into a direct equivalent, but Water Jet could be adjusted (by increasing it's base damage and removing/adjusting the lockout) to a degree to bring it up to par.
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I guess ultimately I simply don't agree with the design philosophy for blast sets. Melee sets are given high end attacks, when they're already paired with sets that provide survivability. Blasters (specifically) rely on damage as their mitigation, and yet their primary damage sets are intentionally hamstrung.
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Yeah, I don't think Ice Blast needs to be compensated (or any other non-sniper set) just because other sets get anotehr 3-tier blast essentially.|
Originally Posted by Winterminal
Considering how specifically a non-Devices Blaster has to slot and/or team in order to reach 22% To Hit, I do not see Ice Blast being left that far behind in terms of performance, if at all.
While I very much like the look of your proposed change, and my negative opinion of the 22% mechanic notwithstanding, I do not mind waiting to see if such a change is necessary for performance. |
Seriously guys, a single target attack isn't that great. Sure, against AVs it can do some serious damage but it that really enough to compensate these sets? I don't think so. Ice is already a great single target performer. Sonic has it's -res component, DP needs help but thats for different reasons entirely. Water Blast is fine as well.
I'm just not understanding the panic that is happening concerning this change to snipes. Even with this change snipes are still rather gimmicky. They aren't becoming the next Rage+Burn or anything. The only set that is possibly going to benefit the most from this change is Electric Blast which needs it the most since it doesn't even have a Tier 3 blast.
Over-all. No comepensation needed for Ice Blast, Water Blast or Sonic Attacks. Still look at DP though.. animations make the DMV look fast.
Whining about everything since 2006.
Ammo switching for Dual Pistols was my idea:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=135484
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a. A lot of the concern is due to someone running numbers in the Blaster section of the forum with various single target chains and showing that at the high end the sets without snipes are the lowest-ranking sets in performance by a wide margin after the changes. Sonic was dead last, Ice was second to last. Is the snipe change somewhat gimmicky? Sure! But it's a pretty large performance difference if leveraged.|
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
I'm just not understanding the panic that is happening concerning this change to snipes. Even with this change snipes are still rather gimmicky. They aren't becoming the next Rage+Burn or anything. The only set that is possibly going to benefit the most from this change is Electric Blast which needs it the most since it doesn't even have a Tier 3 blast.
Over-all. No comepensation needed for Ice Blast, Water Blast or Sonic Attacks. Still look at DP though.. animations make the DMV look fast. |
b. DP is having some animations redone. Check the coffee talk writeup.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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No one thought they would reexamine blasters either.|
Originally Posted by Rakeeb
Nobody has faith that they'll actually do it.
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Well, except for me.
There are limits to what the devs can do, and will do. But within those limits, good things can happen, or I wouldn't still be making the effort after eight years. Progress is slow and halting sometimes, and its never as fast as anyone would like, but it happens.
I wish I could say "this is where the devs were, and this is where they are now, and rational design principles are much stronger today than eight years ago" but most of my justification for that statement involve stories I can't repeat. Each iteration of the powers team has been increasingly more quantitative-minded, while simultaneously being increasingly flexible around those quantitative judgments. They aren't quantitative minded in exactly the way I would hope for, but then again no one is.
Sometimes, you have to be happy with 44%.
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It's not OK to give each set two T3 Blasts but leave three out of the mix. The assertion that a 'single target attack isn't that great' is absurd. The additional damage sets that can leverage this will do is not a small amount and it most certainly does warrant compensation for the sets that are left behind.
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
Yeah, I don't think Ice Blast needs to be compensated (or any other non-sniper set) just because other sets get anotehr 3-tier blast essentially.
Seriously guys, a single target attack isn't that great. Sure, against AVs it can do some serious damage but it that really enough to compensate these sets? I don't think so. Ice is already a great single target performer. Sonic has it's -res component, DP needs help but thats for different reasons entirely. Water Blast is fine as well. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I can't agree with that. There are far too many other possible variables for me to agree with that. You might as well just say, it is not OK to give some sets 4 AoEs, but leave others out of the mix. It is not OK to give most sets a single target hard mez, but leave others out of the mix.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
It's not OK to give each set two T3 Blasts but leave three out of the mix.
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No, your statement comes from good intent, but leads to a bad place, in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The additional damage sets that can leverage this will do is not a small amount and it most certainly does warrant compensation for the sets that are left behind.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I don't think that makes sense either.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I can't agree with that. There are far too many other possible variables for me to agree with that. You might as well just say, it is not OK to give some sets 4 AoEs, but leave others out of the mix. It is not OK to give most sets a single target hard mez, but leave others out of the mix.
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| Unless those other sets started well ahead and already have plenty of compensation. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Because Fire isn't as much ahead as so many people think AND it gets nothing else but damage. Fire BETTER damn well be ahead if the only thing you are looking at is damage, since that is all it does.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Fire started well ahead of everyone and its still getting buffed. How does that make sense?
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I wouldn't be surprised if 60% of Fire's DoT NEVER HAPPENS. Oh, don't get me wrong, I love Fire and the high damage AoEs are strong, but what Ice blast brings to a team and solo is also very strong.
Plus, all snipes suck, even Blazing Bolt. The snipe changes are there to make snipes not suck. BFR almost sucks, being slightly better than snipes. I skipped it on both my higher level Ice blast characters and I do not plan on taking it on my other two. Thus I am fully in support of helping that power. But not because snipes got improved, simply because it should be a bit more efficient and useful.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I'm sorry - but when you compare apples to oranges, you're going to get differences.
I find myself remeniscing, looking at Olepi's old ice blaster guide. There, I found the toon that became my main, an ice/ice (now mace mastery ) blaster.
I also have a fire/fire blaster.
Both are level 50, with tier 4 incarnate goodies.
The new snipe changes mean absolutely nothing to me.
I won't even play any differently. Still, the only place that snipe will get any use is the bomb clusters in UGT. It's essentially a set mule.
I might use it solo to get a piece of a boss, but I doubt it.
Aim-->Blaze--Build Up---> Fire Ball ...and that's usually all I have to do. Maybe follow up with FSC.
With my ice blaster, it's a different show. Aim-->freeze ray. (phone rings, hit BFR, answer phone) Shiver (casually pressed with one hand on mouse) Build up -- > Bitter ice Blast. (finish talking)
It's two completely different animals.
There is absolutely no need for changes of any kind to ice. Over 4000 hours I've logged, according to the npcs whose names start with M.
Some may not feel that ice is so awesome. And that's perfectly okay. I don't think stone armor on a tank is particularly awesome, nor do I find Shield Defense on a brute to be worth a second try. I also think Electric Doms are garbage (at least played the way I play mine,lol)
Some of you may think Ice needs more help. You're more than entitled to think that, but I'm suggesting that you are expecting something that doesn't need to be there to be competitive with any other blast set.
So ice doesn't have a snipe. Fire doesn't have a hold. I would not trade freeze ray for blazing bolt. Nor would I give up ice patch for burn or hot feet.
Would I like more damage and mez protection? Sure! That's why I have a fire/fire brute, and a fire/fire tank!
I realize I'm just one person, but my opinion is that ice is nice. Just the way it is.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
Consider this: insta-cast Blazing Bolt won't even be the highest DPA single target attack in Fire blast: that honor still goes to Blaze which is becoming an 80 foot range attack.
Every blaster set is improved at least a little by the insta-snipe, but while some sets improved quite a bit, did Fire Blast really improve by a dramatic amount? Would fire blast have "fallen behind" without the snipe?
A blaster set with three ranged attacks with DPA of about 1.25 DS/sec will outperform energy blast with its insta-snipe. That's like 10% higher DPA than Focus. There's lots of ways to build a set that leverages the snipe changes, but there also seem to be lots of ways to make blast sets that could easily do without them. If the changes are popular they are more likely to build blast sets with snipes, but that's not the same thing as being mandated to do so and I don't see the forcing function.
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