Dev Chat Summation: BLASTER CHANGES
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2012-06-20 24:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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IOs would also work.|
Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Will it go 'round in circles.
My initial comment was that 4 SO's would get it to 22.06%. Ollin responded with the comment about the IO's. I responded that not everyone has access to IO's. You posted the information that 4 SO's would do it. The circle never ends. |
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Sorry, can't hear you over how awesome my Ice/Ice blaster was from 1 to 50.
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Originally Posted by Agahnim
/Dev needed help more than other sets? I'm guessing you've never played an /ice blaster.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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I do think that Targeting Drone should be enough to trigger the Speeded-Up Snipe effect without having to slot 4 ToHit IOs in (i.e. silly overkill, when 2 is usual slotting with 3 being the very limit) especially given Devices other...problems. And, y'know, AR paired with Devices has no Aim, and ergo no other method that other Primaries have. Which is somewhat unfair.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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AR paired with Devices has a relatively easy path to an (almost) always available scale 3.0 DPA attack that hits from 150 feet of range. That's a higher DPA than any current attack any blaster has access to by a very large margin.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I do think that Targeting Drone should be enough to trigger the Speeded-Up Snipe effect without having to slot 4 ToHit IOs in (i.e. silly overkill, when 2 is usual slotting with 3 being the very limit) especially given Devices other...problems. And, y'know, AR paired with Devices has no Aim, and ergo no other method that other Primaries have. Which is somewhat unfair.
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It is somewhat unfair, but I'm willing to let AR/Dev keep it.
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While we're on the topic, what is the damage bonus to Sniper Rifle from Targeting Drone?
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@Starflier
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Yeah. But all I'm expecting is some animation tweaks, which if that's it, will still leave it behind.|
Originally Posted by Unknown_User
I thought I heard Arbiter Hawk mention that something would come for Dual Pistols with the I24 blaster update, but I think he couldn't mention it at the moment.
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But, a set does have to be at the bottom, it just looks like it might be my favorite blast set at the bottom.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Devices can do it easily without going out of powerset. If my math is correct (at work, so no Mids), slot a Kistmet Accuracy is Cloaking Device, and a L21+ To Hit IO (that's 16.2%) or a -2 SO (16%) in Targeting Drone (13.825 to-hit) to get the +22% (22.064).
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I do think that Targeting Drone should be enough to trigger the Speeded-Up Snipe effect without having to slot 4 ToHit IOs in (i.e. silly overkill, when 2 is usual slotting with 3 being the very limit) especially given Devices other...problems. And, y'know, AR paired with Devices has no Aim, and ergo no other method that other Primaries have. Which is somewhat unfair.
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Seconding this, as a player whose only 40+s are a Corruptor and a Defender, and who has never played a Blaster to 10.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Ostensibly, these changes are to help Blasters, specifically, though the Snipe can help others as well. And that's where this change sort of falls flat. As noted, this'll massively improve them for Defenders and Corruptors, who are already, presumably, sitting pretty well. Not doing much for Blasters (or even moreso, Dominators), though.
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If the idea is to give Blasters access to a quick, hard-hitting attack whenever they Build Up or Aim...code it that way. (And just give the ability to Devices' targeting toggle.) Hell, double the cooldowns and damage of snipes if you have to make it more attractive as an intermittent ability - it'd make them better at the one thing people can use them for now anyway. Instead, they turned it into a buff that hinges on perma-ing in ways that are far, FAR easier for Defenders and Corruptors than Blasters. ((And on the Defender/Corruptor front - christ, as if Mace Mastery wasn't mandatory enough, now we'll need it for both our only +def shield AND focused accuracy.)) Plus, it's something nonintuitive (much less obvious than, say, Assassin's Focus charges) that completely changes the way your character plays - once I hit the magic +22% hit, my entire rotation changes.
I think they were trying to replicate the facelift they gave to Stalkers' AS - turn the opener-only ability into a potent longer-cooldown attack during sustained fights. But without something comparable to Stalkers' hidden/not hidden status to decide whether the attack is an opener or not, they've opted (at least at the current, alpha/pre-alpha stage) for a kludge that's just going to result in another power break between min-maxers and the rest of the playerbase.
I foresee blasters begging to be grouped with VEAT Huntsmen and Widows running double Tactics. Amusing, since Tactics was the one I tended to toggle off when my blue bar was going down too fast since generally most people (sans AE babies) WEREN'T running completely Accuracy-unslotted, so 2x Tactics was such overkill.
If Dual Pistols dropped to the bottom of the barrel from the middle of the ground then I'd bet Swap Ammo is going to get a small +ToHit buff added to it for switching ammo types (unless they actually go and tweak numbers to give you any reason to NOT always use be using flaming rounds) I mean, you have to pay money for DP (assuming you never bought GR before Freedom launched), so having one of those fancy sets you want people to give you money for be an underperforming set is a self-faceplant from a sales point of view. What if Titan Weapons or Staves had been low-performing melee sets? Bet they wouldn't have sold so good. (StJ had the meaty face-pulping action people had been asking for since CoH beta as an alternative to MA instead of being omgoverpowered :P)
now whats that about Blasters getting kung-fu as a secondary? oh baby. Give me some body armor, some punches+kicks and some pistol-whipping action.
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They also made the tier 3 attack 80ft range. Blasters wont need Hide. They'll just need hover and range defense |
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
Seconding this, as a player whose only 40+s are a Corruptor and a Defender, and who has never played a Blaster to 10.
If the idea is to give Blasters access to a quick, hard-hitting attack whenever they Build Up or Aim...code it that way. (And just give the ability to Devices' targeting toggle.) Hell, double the cooldowns and damage of snipes if you have to make it more attractive as an intermittent ability - it'd make them better at the one thing people can use them for now anyway. Instead, they turned it into a buff that hinges on perma-ing in ways that are far, FAR easier for Defenders and Corruptors than Blasters. ((And on the Defender/Corruptor front - christ, as if Mace Mastery wasn't mandatory enough, now we'll need it for both our only +def shield AND focused accuracy.)) Plus, it's something nonintuitive (much less obvious than, say, Assassin's Focus charges) that completely changes the way your character plays - once I hit the magic +22% hit, my entire rotation changes. I think they were trying to replicate the facelift they gave to Stalkers' AS - turn the opener-only ability into a potent longer-cooldown attack during sustained fights. But without something comparable to Stalkers' hidden/not hidden status to decide whether the attack is an opener or not, they've opted (at least at the current, alpha/pre-alpha stage) for a kludge that's just going to result in another power break between min-maxers and the rest of the playerbase. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Which does NOTHING to 'fix' blasters. I know, you didn't mean it that way. But claiming these changes are ok, because of something we can ALREADY do (hover blasting) does not make sense. Nevermind to those blasters who dont want to do this.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
They also made the tier 3 attack 80ft range. Blasters wont need Hide. They'll just need hover and range defense
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To the very complex "use the snipe, then go back to what you were doing."
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Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
once I hit the magic +22% hit, my entire rotation changes.
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You know, this is an interesting point as well, and one I've sort of considered, but not from this angle: any ranged AT that attempts to get the buff is going to have capped accuracy against even-level enemies, will need less than one DO's worth of accuracy to cap against +1s, and will only need one Acc/??? IO for +2s. So in that regard, it does dramatically shift what people can slot for. Though whether that's enough to compensate for what has to be dumped elsewhere, I can't really say unless I mess around bunches in Mids.
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Originally Posted by Iannis
I foresee blasters begging to be grouped with VEAT Huntsmen and Widows running double Tactics. Amusing, since Tactics was the one I tended to toggle off when my blue bar was going down too fast since generally most people (sans AE babies) WEREN'T running completely Accuracy-unslotted, so 2x Tactics was such overkill.
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I really don't like this part, because it doesn't affect sets/set combinations equally. It's FAR easier for some sets to get to 22% ToHit (permanently) than others. Time manipulation Defenders/Corruptors, for instance.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Blast Sets in Issue 24
Snipes: Snipes will skip their wind-up animation and Interrupt window if the player has more than +22% ToHit buff applied to them.
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My Time/Fire defender will ALWAYS have "instacast" snipes (Which means I guess I should respec to pick up Blazing Bolt) because PBUd Farsight keeps him over +22% Tohit permanently.
Wouldn't it be possible to use the same tech as Hybrid so that picking up your Snipe grants you an auto power that serves no purpose other than to apply a specific status to you that would suppress in combat and then tie the different behaviors of the snipes to that status flag?
That way the change would apply equally to all sets with snipes.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
I still would have liked to see the original attribution "range is a Blaster's defense" be made true, with a Blaster getting a bonus to Defense for every meter of distance between them and the mob attacking them.
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
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Agreed, its very odd that considering all these things have been championed as "Blaster" changes, the devs chose to hide one of the best parts of it behind a requirement that benefits Defenders and Corruptors the most.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I really don't like this part, because it doesn't affect sets/set combinations equally. It's FAR easier for some sets to get to 22% ToHit (permanently) than others. Time manipulation Defenders/Corruptors, for instance.
My Time/Fire defender will ALWAYS have "instacast" snipes (Which means I guess I should respec to pick up Blazing Bolt) because PBUd Farsight keeps him over +22% Tohit permanently. Wouldn't it be possible to use the same tech as Hybrid so that picking up your Snipe grants you an auto power that serves no purpose other than to apply a specific status to you that would suppress in combat and then tie the different behaviors of the snipes to that status flag? That way the change would apply equally to all sets with snipes. |
I get that with BU and Aim there's not a lot of downtime for the quick-snipe, but why is it there at all? I'm simply not seeing how Blasters are at a power level that requires a check like this to balance. Would Blasters really be overpowered if this 22% tohit requirement was gone? Sure we'd all have a permanent awesome DPA, awesome range attack...so what?
Blasters are still giving up a LOT of survivability for their "damage all the time" playstyle, that's not changing with these i24 changes. Sure, they'll help with staying alive, but we still have the biggest lack of mez protection in the game. (No mez protection, no buffs/debuffs/controls to head them off) That's a huge deficit, getting a permanent quick-snipe is not overpowered in the face of that.
Now...make those new secondary powers grant some small mez protection and I can learn to accept this tohit check.
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Its there because the devs wanted to make the fact that /Devices has a tohit toggle an advantage relative to the other secondaries. So they designed the sniper buff in such a way that /devices could get that buff all the time, while other secondaries would tend to get it only some of the time.
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Originally Posted by Lightslinger
I get that with BU and Aim there's not a lot of downtime for the quick-snipe, but why is it there at all?
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Originally Posted by Lightslinger
I discussed this a bit more in the Blaster forum thread, but the Snipe change should not require the +tohit in my opinion.
Why did Stalkers simply get an awesome new AS that alternates between slow and fast attack while Blaster's similar new mechanic is gated behind +tohit? This requirement, which will have many blaster slotting for +tohit, taking multiple new powers just to use the new Snipes, seems more punitive in the end. Stalkers - Here's a great new AS, enjoy! Blasters -Here's a great new Snipe, except you'll have to get some +tohit to use it! Better respec into Leadership and buy a Kismet! |
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Originally Posted by Lightslinger
No, a flat out buff would be to give us the same style buff they gave to Stalkers.
This is punitive as it will require many of us to respec to take even close to full advantage of it. It will require Tactics and the use of Inspirations to use at all times, why is it fair to say this was needed for Blasters? So yes, the buff is good, gating it so that we are required to respec into new Power Pools and liberally use inspirations is the punitive part. |
Not so the three stacks of assassin's focus, required for AS to have near-normal damage.
Make the snipes only have a chance of full damage, AND lose their secondary effect (AS loses Terrorize and the -To-Hit when "instant") and then maybe you have a case.
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Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
From what I gather, the powers that become these +regen/+rec powers aren't getting their original functions removed. So CD will still provide stealth and +def, and be a place to put an LotG (and Karma -KB to boot).
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Originally Posted by Starflier
While we're on the topic, what is the damage bonus to Sniper Rifle from Targeting Drone?
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Devices needs the help, not denying that, but don't impose a mechanic on 6 other Blaster secondaries and 4 total ATs just to buff a single secondary.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its there because the devs wanted to make the fact that /Devices has a tohit toggle an advantage relative to the other secondaries. So they designed the sniper buff in such a way that /devices could get that buff all the time, while other secondaries would tend to get it only some of the time.
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This is my soapbox right now, sorry. I've been dreaming of a Blaster snipe that works like Stalker's new AS for too long to give up on it now.
Fixing Devices is great, hamfisting this awesome buff by doing it is not.
Isn't the point of a blaster to be somewhat of a glass cannon?
I think these changes will go a long way to improve the blaster AT. Your inherent is not supposed to make you a God and mez proof.... even on Doms there is a threshold that has to be met for them to be mez resistant.
Think I will wait for the changes to hit beta... actually test them and give objective feedback before I comment any further (I know silly idea )
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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I'd support this or something like it 100x more than the +tohit check, just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
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The +22% To-Hit is something you can be sure when you will get it Not so the three stacks of assassin's focus, required for AS to have near-normal damage. Make the snipes only have a chance of full damage, AND lose their secondary effect (AS loses Terrorize and the -To-Hit when "instant") and then maybe you have a case. |
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Since the devs aren't going to nerf all of the other secondaries, the only way /Devices is going to be buffed to parity is that at some point it will get a buff everyone else doesn't get at all, or they get a buff that everyone gets less off. If its not this it will be something else. That will make you happy at the expense of making someone else unhappy, who prioritizes the something else higher than you do.|
Originally Posted by Lightslinger
Devices needs the help, not denying that, but don't impose a mechanic on 6 other Blaster secondaries and 4 total ATs just to buff a single secondary.
This is my soapbox right now, sorry. I've been dreaming of a Blaster snipe that works like Stalker's new AS for too long to give up on it now. Fixing Devices is great, hamfisting this awesome buff by doing it is not. |
By all means advocate your case to the devs; I'm just pointing out the decision they have to make is not whether to make you happy or not, but to decide who they are going to pick to take your place. Its not a trivial decision.
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To be fair, Snipes don't really have worthwhile secondary effects anyway (except maybe Beam Rifle, if you count the chance to spread Disintegration). Removing their range might be more thematically appropriate.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Make the snipes only have a chance of full damage, AND lose their secondary effect (AS loses Terrorize and the -To-Hit when "instant") and then maybe you have a case.
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To make it any real penalty, the range would probably need to be at most 60'.|
Originally Posted by Lazarillo
To be fair, Snipes don't really have worthwhile secondary effects anyway (except maybe Beam Rifle, if you count the chance to spread Disintegration). Removing their range might be more thematically appropriate.
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And that would only penalize SOME playstyles.
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I've placed a blaster-only snipe suggestion into Arbiter Hawk's suggestion box specifically to address the issue that the sniper changes, while beneficial to blasters, are at the least diluted by benefiting lots of archetypes besides blasters.
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