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But it would be a buff to the snipes of some dominators, so an overall nerf to those that can't leverage it.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say it is no change at all? They didn't actually make dominator snipes worse.
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Like getting a below inflation pay rise. You might get given something, but in real terms are worse off compared to where you were and those around you.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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It is my understanding the slow snipes with 20s recharge for dominators was an experiment by Castle. If we are going through this now, I guess it means it's a failed experiment.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say it is no change at all? They didn't actually make dominator snipes worse.
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I would assume, should Dominator snipes get these improvements they would also be reverted to their old form. Either that, or the improved snipe will be 2x bad (but no nerf) for doms, since it would be on a 20s recharge instead of the standard 12s.
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Well when you say less optimal, I would qualify that as less optimal but still reasonable.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
I think we are getting somewhere here...
So, what I am gathering is you dont really care THAT much about specific attach chains, or situational pre-fabricated chains, as long as you can recycle the attack power selection in less optimal chains, right? |
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| In a different way than you may think. Remember for Dominators, snipes are not interruptable and are basically ranged 20s recharged Total Fucus. For a domnator that cant leverage the new snipe mechanic, this is a pure nerf. |
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Because it's not a nerf. It's just silly.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Wait, what? Last I checked, dom snipes still had the interrupt period. At least, according to city of data they still do. They don't really *benefit* much since they don't have easy access to large amounts of +tohit, but I don't see how it could be a nerf.
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... God forbid DOMINATORS have the hardest time to get Super Snipes.
Freakin' Doms.
... Wait I play those too.
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I'll have to double check this once I get home... I recall them having the interrupt removed and recharge increased back during the Dominator revamp... maybe that never made it out of testing...
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Wait, what? Last I checked, dom snipes still had the interrupt period. At least, according to city of data they still do. They don't really *benefit* much since they don't have easy access to large amounts of +tohit, but I don't see how it could be a nerf.
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Maybe my memory is failing, it has been a long time... maybe the idea was to make them have higher DPAs than the low recharge versions... |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Are you sure they aren't interruptible ? I don't take them on my doms anymore but I seem to recall starting them and interrupting them to build domination.
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But if they still have the interrupt window then those snipes are worse than I thought... sure better DPAS but due to the interrupt window blaster snipes get 20% bonus damage. Dominator snipes get no bonus damage, they just do standard damage proportional to their recharge.
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I remember this too, but I just checked and it looks like it didn't happen.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
I'll have to double check this once I get home... I recall them having the interrupt removed and recharge increased back during the Dominator revamp... maybe that never made it out of testing...
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So wait...why would I even take snipe on my low level toons when it doesn't become even half worth it until 25?
There's no incentive to really pick it up as the way it is now (well...will be now...you know what I mean! lol).
If this is an across the board AT sniper change then it needs to be easily available or possible for all Sniper ATs without making your build even more tight than it already was!
Depending on yellows, BU or a guy on team with tatics just seems...well out of place. I'm not going to pick up snipe if I don't team all the time. Also snipe doesn't seem to be worth it for a solo toon until the mid-late game.
Do you think it would break the game if the To Hit requirement was only 6%?
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
So wait...why would I even take snipe on my low level toons when it doesn't become even half worth it until 25?
There's no incentive to really pick it up as the way it is now (well...will be now...you know what I mean! lol). If this is an across the board AT sniper change then it needs to be easily available or possible for all Sniper ATs without making your build even more tight than it already was! Depending on yellows, BU or a guy on team with tatics just seems...well out of place. I'm not going to pick up snipe if I don't team all the time. Also snipe doesn't seem to be worth it for a solo toon until the mid-late game. Do you think it would break the game if the To Hit requirement was only 6%? |
Sigh. Once again; The Design Point of the Snipe Changes was to make Blast Sets, Snipes Specifically, more beneficial in Team Play, not Solo Play. Solo Play is a situational bonus, with Devices and Time Manipulation shining here.
There is an extremely good chance, on an Eight Man Team, someone else has Tactics and you're good to go, which is the point. Snipe Change was to fix Team Damage Disparity, not "Kill Everything Ever Solo" ability.
The Blaster Specific Solo Fix is their added sustainability, which doubles as a team benefit as well.
And yes that would be dumb. Because I can promise Snipes would be nerfed HARD if it was so readily easy. Consider this a 'We don't want to nerf snipe damage, but don't want to make it SUPER EASY to get Perma Instant Snipes outside of two power sets, and outside of teams."
You can't have everything you want.
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They are standard snipes for casting, so they will be affected by this change. They do have longer rehcarges and do a lot of damage, but are still the long cast with interrupt period (at least according to MIDS).|
Originally Posted by Starsman
But if they still have the interrupt window then those snipes are worse than I thought... sure better DPAS but due to the interrupt window blaster snipes get 20% bonus damage. Dominator snipes get no bonus damage, they just do standard damage proportional to their recharge.
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While they may not get bonus damage for being interruptible, they do more damage than the blaster versions, so I'll not be complaining.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Well, had you been taking snipes before the mentioned buff, you'd know they can drop foes pretty easy early on. My Defenders can 2-shot minions with snipe+tier 1 in the early game.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
So wait...why would I even take snipe on my low level toons when it doesn't become even half worth it until 25?
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There's no incentive to really pick it up as the way it is now (well...will be now...you know what I mean! lol). If this is an across the board AT sniper change then it needs to be easily available or possible for all Sniper ATs without making your build even more tight than it already was! Depending on yellows, BU or a guy on team with tatics just seems...well out of place. I'm not going to pick up snipe if I don't team all the time. Also snipe doesn't seem to be worth it for a solo toon until the mid-late game. Do you think it would break the game if the To Hit requirement was only 6%? |
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One potential source of improvement was on my list of blaster issues from before he announced the I24 changes: for some odd reason Blasters have the worst melee tohit modifier - basically the one that is used for self-buffs. That's why BU is +20% for scrappers but only +15% for blasters. Increasing the melee tohit buff modifier for blasters from 0.075 to 0.10 (the value that scrappers, tankers, stalkers, and brutes have, plus defenders) would bring BU up to +20% and make it far easier for BU to trigger insta-snipe, and it would make it trivially easy for targeting drone to do so without going to 4 slots. And premium players without access to the invention system won't be as disadvantaged from not having kismet accessible.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Also replying to Arcanaville: I admit that I normally don't agree with Arbiter Hawk's methods because I felt that his changes to Khelds and Gravity wasn't enough...(did he directly help with poison? that was mostly Synapse right?) so I did attack him a bit which was a little unfair...still I think that some adjustments need to be made to his To Hit idea...I eagerly await I24 beta.
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Note that this has nothing to do with buffing, and wouldn't impinge on Defenders at all: Defenders use their ranged tohit modifier for ally buffing powers, and that's set to the highest value of any archetype: 0.125. Blasters, along with Scrappers, Tankers, Stalkers, and Brutes currently have a 0.07 ranged modifier. That's what affects tactics' strength in particular, and it can be set independently of the self buffing mod.
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It was my impression from your comments that the 22% requiring overslotting Targeting Drone was not a coincidence...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One potential source of improvement was on my list of blaster issues from before he announced the I24 changes: for some odd reason Blasters have the worst melee tohit modifier - basically the one that is used for self-buffs. That's why BU is +20% for scrappers but only +15% for blasters. Increasing the melee tohit buff modifier for blasters from 0.075 to 0.10 (the value that scrappers, tankers, stalkers, and brutes have, plus defenders) would bring BU up to +20% and make it far easier for BU to trigger insta-snipe, and it would make it trivially easy for targeting drone to do so without going to 4 slots. And premium players without access to the invention system won't be as disadvantaged from not having kismet accessible.
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: / A little snippy aren't we?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Sigh. Once again; The Design Point of the Snipe Changes was to make Blast Sets, Snipes Specifically, more beneficial in Team Play, not Solo Play. Solo Play is a situational bonus, with Devices and Time Manipulation shining here.
There is an extremely good chance, on an Eight Man Team, someone else has Tactics and you're good to go, which is the point. Snipe Change was to fix Team Damage Disparity, not "Kill Everything Ever Solo" ability. The Blaster Specific Solo Fix is their added sustainability, which doubles as a team benefit as well. And yes that would be dumb. Because I can promise Snipes would be nerfed HARD if it was so readily easy. Consider this a 'We don't want to nerf snipe damage, but don't want to make it SUPER EASY to get Perma Instant Snipes outside of two power sets, and outside of teams." You can't have everything you want. |
Team Play eh? It just seems odd to me because the Devs normally like to make a powers more solo friendly than team friendly but that's just how I perceive things I guess :/. I guess the burstiness of this seems rather strange to me and I feel like there would be some issues fighting certain mobs but I will have to wait and see.
I never said anything about kill everything. I'm just looking at Snipes across the board and I'm trying think of good reasons why a low level toon would want or or maybe a Dominator when they can have a power that is more...reliable and consistent.
Point made, I was just throwing it out there to see how the game would melt if Snipes were fast firing out of the box.
I don't want everything I want Reppu lol. Stop clawing at my eyes with your painful words! *ouch seriously :/*
The snipe change seems to be easily in reach with some ATs more than others and it seems...unfair to blasters...unless you are /devices. I guess that's just the nature of the beast.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well, had you been taking snipes before the mentioned buff, you'd know they can drop foes pretty easy early on. My Defenders can 2-shot minions with snipe+tier 1 in the early game.
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| I think you guys are taking this change out of context. If you wanted the snipes but felt them unfun because of the interrupt, this change helps by giving you options. If you still find the options unfun, don't take the snipe. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
One potential source of improvement was on my list of blaster issues from before he announced the I24 changes: for some odd reason Blasters have the worst melee tohit modifier - basically the one that is used for self-buffs. That's why BU is +20% for scrappers but only +15% for blasters. Increasing the melee tohit buff modifier for blasters from 0.075 to 0.10 (the value that scrappers, tankers, stalkers, and brutes have, plus defenders) would bring BU up to +20% and make it far easier for BU to trigger insta-snipe, and it would make it trivially easy for targeting drone to do so without going to 4 slots. And premium players without access to the invention system won't be as disadvantaged from not having kismet accessible.
Note that this has nothing to do with buffing, and wouldn't impinge on Defenders at all: Defenders use their ranged tohit modifier for ally buffing powers, and that's set to the highest value of any archetype: 0.125. Blasters, along with Scrappers, Tankers, Stalkers, and Brutes currently have a 0.07 ranged modifier. That's what affects tactics' strength in particular, and it can be set independently of the self buffing mod. |
I think that we need to think of situations like the ones you just mentioned like thinking about premium players or build with limited slots. I also think that adjustment to the modifier would be a super quick fix.
Blasters be able to benefit form this change the most EVEN if they don't take /Devices.
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But changing the mod Arcana is talking about will have no effect on Tactics.
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Originally Posted by Starsman
It was my impression from your comments that the 22% requiring overslotting Tactics was not a coincidence...
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Sorry, I meant because of Targeting Drone, power that would be affected.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But changing the mod Arcana is talking about will have no effect on Tactics.
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I don't think that was necessarily 100% deliberate. The only thing I really think about TD is that Arbiter Hawk wanted /devices to be able to perma this effect a lot easier than most other blasters to give it an advantage.|
Originally Posted by Starsman
It was my impression from your comments that the 22% requiring overslotting Targetting Drone was not a coincidence...
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If we increase the blaster melee tohit buff mod from 0.075 to 0.125, that would make them the undisputed King of Aiming (that's the same mod value Defenders use for the ranged modifier, making them King of Helping Other People Aim). Build Up would increase from +15% to +25% and be over the limit without tohit slotting. Targeting Drone would increase to 23.1% and be over the limit without even slotting it. Slotting it would make it protect against tohit debuffs better (and it has tohit debuff resistance). Soul Drain would increase to +15% for the first target and 2.5% for each additional target and be over the limit with four targets total. But Tactics would be unaffected.
To me, those all sound like good things to have happen.
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I'm still wary of the to-hit requirement for snipes. Sets without Aim and or snipes will need some careful balancing or risk falling well below other sets, enough that people may steer clear of them due to obvious under performance.
Then there's the issue if to-hit debuffs will effect this new ability. If it does, then blasters who have little ways of mitigating attacks or targeted debuffs can end up even more penalyzed.
I recall a while back someone posted the idea of a "cloggle". A click that can be held down and while held, the effect remains like a toggle. I wonder if instead of the to-hit requirement, something like this would be possible for snipes.
Click Snipe, the longer the click is held down, the higher the damage of the snipe goes, until it's max (animation time) then it'll fire even if still being held down. Click and let go, it'll fire off faster, but with less damage. The snipe is still interruptable, and therefore, even it's shortest DPA is better than it normally would.
If possible it seems a more elegant solution than people trying to figure out how to get enough of a particular buff, avoiding debuffs, etc.. to include a power.
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Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To me, those all sound like good things to have happen.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I think Oathbound in one of the threads mentioned giving it the Hybrid treatment...I'm going to see if I can find his post.
EDIT
ear GOD...there's like 20 new Blaster threads now...nvm **** that lol.
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You wont hear any arguments from me on that. I just was curious about that one point.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't think that was necessarily 100% deliberate. The only thing I really think about TD is that Arbiter Hawk wanted /devices to be able to perma this effect a lot easier than most other blasters to give it an advantage.
If we increase the blaster melee tohit buff mod from 0.075 to 0.125, that would make them the undisputed King of Aiming (that's the same mod value Defenders use for the ranged modifier, making them King of Helping Other People Aim). Build Up would increase from +15% to +25% and be over the limit without tohit slotting. Targeting Drone would increase to 23.1% and be over the limit without even slotting it. Slotting it would make it protect against tohit debuffs better (and it has tohit debuff resistance). Soul Drain would increase to +15% for the first target and 2.5% for each additional target and be over the limit with four targets total. But Tactics would be unaffected. To me, those all sound like good things to have happen. |
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Yeah that seems like a very good idea to me. I was doing the math on using Build Up to trigger FastSnipe and I think it could use some help. In order to trigger FastSnipe Buildup needs to have three To Hit SOs which when combined with the need to slot for recharge means it has to be six slotted. Now there are alternative options that use fewer slots but these require either Inventions or Hamidon Enhancements. Assuming that the goal is to make this bonus reasonably accessible to all Players at all levels then I think buffing Build Up makes a lot of sense.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I don't think that was necessarily 100% deliberate. The only thing I really think about TD is that Arbiter Hawk wanted /devices to be able to perma this effect a lot easier than most other blasters to give it an advantage.
If we increase the blaster melee tohit buff mod from 0.075 to 0.125, that would make them the undisputed King of Aiming (that's the same mod value Defenders use for the ranged modifier, making them King of Helping Other People Aim). Build Up would increase from +15% to +25% and be over the limit without tohit slotting. Targeting Drone would increase to 23.1% and be over the limit without even slotting it. Slotting it would make it protect against tohit debuffs better (and it has tohit debuff resistance). Soul Drain would increase to +15% for the first target and 2.5% for each additional target and be over the limit with four targets total. But Tactics would be unaffected. To me, those all sound like good things to have happen. |
I made a suggestion on the other topic that defiance 3.0 also give a to hit buff bonus as well. So maybe then a blaster could hit "insta" snipe with tactics + Kismet.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
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Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
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FYI, Arbiter Hawk Has a Q&A thread regarding the upcoming Ranged Blast & Blaster changes going on here right now:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...28#post4280228
If you've got questions, that would be the place to go! He'll be answering questions until 5PM PDT today.
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