Masterminds: Gimped, or Tankmages? You decide!

I have heard in various circles various opinions, and from what I've gleaned, MMs are either gimped into 3rd-tier or tankmages that are only held in check by awful AI. I wanted to really clear this up so I decided to make this thread.

So, in your replies please tell your opinions on this controversial Archetype, and why you think it is weak/overpowered/just right.

And PLEASE, for God/Buddha/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Whoever's sake, please don't start a flame war.

I don't know if they're overpowered or not, but I say that they are fun as hell to play!

Depends wildly on your primary/secondary combination.

Just like every other archetype in the game.

The answer is: yes.

Masterminds are VERY powerful. Even the weaker ones are stronger than average compared to other ATs and some of the top-tier ones have a valid claim to being the strongest characters in the game.

However they also have some very specific weaknesses:

1. They move slower than other characters and as such struggle on speed running or other situations where the need to bring firepower to a specifc location rapidly is required.
2. They tend to have problems in any situation calling for significant vertical movement (unless they are built specifically for it).
3. They are VERY vulnerable to AoE damage
4. They have less control over their powers than other characters

Can be really OP in some combinations (Bots/Dark, Bots/FF, Thugs/Poison. Demon/All sorts of stuff) and meh in others (Mercs/). Can be vulnerable to massive AoEs and so on, haven't seen a lot of them on trials lately.

Good AT, needs a lot of legwork to manage.

Well...These are patently enlightened remarks. I was afraid I'd have to break out the Colbert-Popcorn gif.

To me Masterminds are generally summed up as excellent to OP solo to small teams, any team over 5 members can lead to issues as the number of bosses with pet deadly AoE's start to pop up. Exceptions, as always, as some have pointed out already.

Personally I have yet to carry an MM past 40. I have a few I really enjoy, but they require a degree of thought, at times, that I just don't get in the mood for. other days playing an MM is like playing on autopilot, everything dies, I steamroll on. Just the other day I stomped SSA2 part 1 in around 30 min before work with my Demon/Dark, an overly strong build to begin with. No trouble until final battle, including the fight on the raider platform. Even then, I didn't personally die in the final battle, just had to keep respawning my demons over and over.

I'm sure others will have better experience than I though, it's my least played AT.

Yes, Masterminds are powerful, they are the most easy AT to sole, and the most fun to play... to me They suck if you want to do all the killing though :P The only real thing that can be you is a Player, or any group that attacks you instead of your pets.

They're tankmages who will sniff out every single broken power and stupidly balanced faction in the game for you. You will notice things you never did on an AT like a Tank or Brute, because your pets will be annihilated instead of having the HP, powers, and intelligence to bull their way through it.

Beast Mastery is the crown jewel for this, because all the pets are melee. PPD - Glue patch lockdown, flashbang, goodnight. You even suddenly realise....hang on....Tuatha get to throw down Quicksands and have increased damage, WTF? And wait a damn minute, I knew battleaxe was supposed to be a somewhat heavy hitter but what the F*** is going on with these Warrior Hewers!?

Masterminding is a game of learning all the broken or hideously unpolished powers and mobs in the game and brutalising or locking them down so you can effortlessly faceroll everything else. Sometimes that game means you just write off entire factions because clearly Masterminds aren't a concern to anyone making any part of the game.

Masterminds are incredibly powerful, but they they have weaknesses which can make them completely ineffectual. Generally speaking, when content isn't too harsh or unforgiving (and doesn't have too much AoE), a Mastermind is easier and safer to play than most other ATs, and it can typically go farther on a much weaker build. The problem is they tend to run into a wall when they enter a specifically "challenging" situation, just because the henchmen are not that sturdy, and the developers like tossing lots of AoE on newer enemies.

I think the dilemma is best described in something I used to say about them: For the most part, you can forget you even have a secondary and be just fine. Trouble is, a Mastermind's secondary powerset is arguably their strongest power source. JUST the Henchmen are good for wiping out hordes of minions, but fight, say, the Woodsman who can take out 2/3 of your henchmen with a single tree stump and you start realising just how important and powerful support is, and how much it can turn a fight around on its head.

I don't think there's any one definitive answer to the question, but to say that Masterminds tend to be stronger in more situations than other ATs, but they also tend to be screwed in more situations than others, as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

"No, go here. HERE! Crying out loud, do I have to teleport you? Do NOT make me teleport you, you pile of scrap!
Shoot them. No, SHOOT them! THAT IS PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE! THAT IS NOT SHOOTING THEM! Ok, good, thank y- NO, NOT THAT MOB! DON'T AGGRO A WHOLE OTHER MOB YOU- ok, passive, follow. I said Follow. FOLLOW! This is not bloody rocket science! Ok, right, Defensive follow. I said DEFENSIVE. Yes, that means you attack them! Wha- NO, don't heal him, heal the Assault Bot!
Right, look, hell with it, you stay here while I go and toe-bomb that lot. Wh-?! WHAT PART OF STAY DO YOU NOT [Beep!] GET, YOU [Beep!] [Beep!] PILE OF [Beep!]?!?"

Normal day in the life of a Bots/Traps MM -_- Which is exactly why I stopped bloody playing him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I'd say attempting to compare MMs to other ATs is like comparing apples to oranges. But ii's more like comparing apples to ostriches.

Pros:
Absurd damage potential. A MM can lay waste to legions with ease.
Self-contained team. You have six "people" with you, and a support set to back them up. All together you are basically a fully functional team.
Little personal risk. Your minions are disposable, when things go badly just order them to their deaths while you escape.

Cons:
Not very smart. Your minions have alot of power, but they're pretty bad at using it at the right times. I can't tell you how many times I've raged at my Assault Bot for firing Incendiary Missiles at one, low-HP target.
AoE. Back when MMs were villain-only, the common joke was that Sharkhead was designed specifically to make our lives hell. Demolitionist fire patches just crush MMs, as does any AoE-heavy enemy.
When things go bad, they go BAD. It's really hard to regain your footing if you lose all your minions in the midst of a raging battle. It takes quite a lot of time and sometimes as much as a full Endurance bar to get back to full strength, so when things go badly your best bet is to escape as quickly as possible.

Gimp or tankmage is more determined by the player than even the powersets, but you cannot apply either term unilaterally.

All my masterminds are fantastic tankmages.

I'm probably playing my Mastermind all wrong, but I just enjoy pointing them at enemies and watching those enemies fall down. (Bear in mind I play at +0/x1, so if they accidentally aggro another group, that means maybe an extra two or three guys, so no big deal)

I play Bots/Storm, so there's usually a Tornado (and, soon, a Lightning Storm) out there causing havoc, too. Between the 'bots, the Tornado, Gale, Hurricane, and the occasional Pulse Rifle Burst, there are bodies flying everywhere. KB so hard their head is stuck in a wall while my bots are shooting at their butt.

It's downright awesome.

If playing a MM that way is wrong, I don't want to be right.

[Flow Lightning] is a horrible NPC power to deal with, especially on MMs. I hate it more than [Mask of Vitiation].

I've been playing a Mercs/Poisons MM named "Wonkondescending" (yes, it's for the contest...) and so far he's been pretty cool.