Masterminds: Gimped, or Tankmages? You decide!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-14 19:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
On my Thug/Dark I feel pretty powerful. I do not feel gimped.
I also have a Ninja/Traps. Traps is awesome but the Ninjas are ok at best.
At the '07 Meet and Greet, Back Alley Brawler said "Masterminds are the game on easy mode." When I told him my 1st 50 was my Merc/Dark. She is still my go-to on any difficult content, including Incarnate. But then, she's also my badger.
It's not how many times you get knocked down that count. It's how many times you get up.
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This sounds more like the normal day in the life of a PuG trial leader running a TPN or an UG. I've never had this problem with my bots/traps MM. I enter a mob, I taunt them. They fire at me, my bots retaliate while I'm busy laying down some poison traps, caltrops and trip mines.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
"No, go here. HERE! Crying out loud, do I have to teleport you? Do NOT make me teleport you, you pile of scrap!
Shoot them. No, SHOOT them! THAT IS PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE! THAT IS NOT SHOOTING THEM! Ok, good, thank y- NO, NOT THAT MOB! DON'T AGGRO A WHOLE OTHER MOB YOU- ok, passive, follow. I said Follow. FOLLOW! This is not bloody rocket science! Ok, right, Defensive follow. I said DEFENSIVE. Yes, that means you attack them! Wha- NO, don't heal him, heal the Assault Bot! Right, look, hell with it, you stay here while I go and toe-bomb that lot. Wh-?! WHAT PART OF STAY DO YOU NOT [Beep!] GET, YOU [Beep!] [Beep!] PILE OF [Beep!]?!?" Normal day in the life of a Bots/Traps MM -_- Which is exactly why I stopped bloody playing him. |
Realized I never actually answered the OP.
There's one small range where masterminds feel far too squishy to me - and it's a very specific level range. I don't mean 1-6, where you've got one minion slowly flailing at things. Nope.
Redside. 18-23.
In 99% of other content, my masterminds - and note I don't tend to IO out, purple/softcap/etc. characters - feel fairly powerful. In that one range, and specifically redside, I absolutely *hate* dealing with masterminds. Why?
- You have one Tier 2 minion. If Tier 2 is your support (such as with robotics, for example - heal and bubble,) it pretty much can't keep up.
- Your Tier 1 minions have just dropped a level to be -2 to you - and at LEAST that to everything else.
- You're still on DOs or DO-level SOs for a good chunk of this.
- Scrapyarders. Specifically demolitionists. Typically lots of them. With AOE fire.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
"No, go here. HERE! Crying out loud, do I have to teleport you? Do NOT make me teleport you, you pile of scrap!
Shoot them. No, SHOOT them! THAT IS PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE! THAT IS NOT SHOOTING THEM! Ok, good, thank y- NO, NOT THAT MOB! DON'T AGGRO A WHOLE OTHER MOB YOU- ok, passive, follow. I said Follow. FOLLOW! This is not bloody rocket science! Ok, right, Defensive follow. I said DEFENSIVE. Yes, that means you attack them! Wha- NO, don't heal him, heal the Assault Bot! Right, look, hell with it, you stay here while I go and toe-bomb that lot. Wh-?! WHAT PART OF STAY DO YOU NOT [Beep!] GET, YOU [Beep!] [Beep!] PILE OF [Beep!]?!?" Normal day in the life of a Bots/Traps MM -_- Which is exactly why I stopped bloody playing him. |
Okay, maybe if I hadn't played MMs before Demons came along (and the Pet AI got dramatically changed to accomidate them) I wouldn't feel this way. But before that point, ranged pets tended to stay at range! (Okay, there was usually one pet that felt the need to walk up right next to the enemy, but the rest tended to hold back!)
Sure, it sucked to play Zombies or Ninja at that time, but my Bots/Traps was wonderfully fun.
And now? With all the pets running up to hug the enemies before attacking? My Bots feel ultimately fragil. And them dieing and getting beat up more makes me notice how stupid the Supports Bots are about well, supporting.
This combo is still very powerful... WHEN it works right. But now it seems to require a lot of micromanagement and more luck than it once did... which I don't really enjoy. I can no longer trust my Bots to take care of themselves while I drop Trip Mines, Poison Gas Traps, and Mortars. In short, the FUN is all gone.
Which is why I ended up deleating that character a while back.
I try Masterminds out on occasion, still. I highly reccommed anyone who has trouble playing Support Sets to play a Mastermind - that should teach them quick! But I doubt I'll play one regularly again until the Devs find a way to fix the AI issues. (Having more than one AI for all the pets would help a heck of a lot!)
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Being a MM is like playing a defender on a team with six eight-year-old's playing Scrappers. After they've chugged a Monster. With their power bar hidden. On the bright side, they want to succeed, so if they can use the right powers at the right time you pull through just fine. Unfortunately, they're still hyperactive and barely coherent at the best of times, so you'll spend a lot of time yelling at them (both IRL and in game) to do the right thing.
Overall, they're probably the strongest class in theory and middle of the road in practice. Very fun to play though, I enjoy my Necro/Dark very much.
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No, it's what a lot of the mobs do, regardless of AT. I find Freaks to be 'best' for it, but also deal with Council doing it, gangers of all stripes, Cabal are great because they can go so fast they'll go to the other side of the map, etc. The AI is broken and Paragon can't be bothered to fix it because going through their own old undocumented work and figuring out what they've done and rebuilding....anything on it, would be time consuming and tedious. The simple response would be to instead remove running mobs entirely, because it's a pointless mechanic that ultimately lowers enemy DPS, making them less dangerous, but adding needless tedium. In all, it ends up being a net negative for gameplay. It's also a very definable change or broken AI, because this behaviour was NOT present when I stopped playing a few years ago; the running mechanic existed, but very, very few mobs actually indulged in it. When I came back I noticed this new predilection of mobs almost immediately.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Just a note - that might be the fault of the traps, rather than of you being a mastermind. That stupid EB did the exact same thing when I fought him with my traps defender, and I've observed similar behavior out of other mobs on him. There's just something about traps that drives mobs bonkers.
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You don't notice it on Brutes and Tanks because taunt stops them running. Scrappers tend to slaughter enemies too quickly to notice (I noticed it a great deal on low level Titan Weapons though, because it operates in bursts). Blasters will also kill quickly and frankly would be quite happy to see something not shooting their squishy face off. Defenders and Controllers have a plethora of status effects going on (some Defenders will end up murdering rather quickly, others slow or immobilise). You get the idea.
Masterminds without a controlling secondary just get the shaft. Pre-level 24, your pets don't kill anywhere near fast enough to make it a non-issue, and they'll follow a target. So every other mob will attempt to pull your pets across the whole map. I play the Mercedes Sheldon arc a lot so the Freaks there are the bane of my Masterminding life if I do it at level 20. They have Dull Pain you see, so your pets slowly beat them down to "broken run mechanics range", then they pop Dull Pain and run away. The entire mission devolves into a masterclass of pet control as you order a target attacked, wait for signs it's about to run, switch your attack to another target, reprioritise the runners who came back...once you hit 24, most MM primaries start chewing through enemies too quickly for them to try and run away anymore and you don't notice.
It's a big solo problem at lower levels, basically. So obviously some goon will spout 'learn to play' nonsense defending this 'mechanic' and offer a ridiculous solution like power levelling with DFB teams until you're out of the level zone of concern.
Chairman of the Charity of Pain; accepting donations of blood and guts.
Prophet of the Creamy Truth; "If it's empty, fill it with cream."
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My first MM was Merc/Poison and I always felt unbelievably strong, definitely right up there with my best scrappers and controllers and hard targets just withered under the Poison debuffs. I played on Unyielding and never had an issue. Got to the late 20s and mostly abandoned the character for many reasons, none of which were because I thought it was weak. Eventually got it into the low 30s by playing it every now and again.|
Originally Posted by Kirsten
I've been playing a Mercs/Poisons MM named "Wonkondescending" (yes, it's for the contest...) and so far he's been pretty cool.
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Then I made a Demon/Storm. I never knew MMs could be that strong. My Merc/Poison, as good as it is, is feeble in comparison.
I like MMs, but I prefer other ATs, despite MMs great strength.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... really?
*looks at my 38 bots/traps* I must play on other days. And as far as my bot/ff (also at 38, but for far longer,) well, that one is just typically boring as hell. |
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I don't have that experience ever.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yup. I even went so far as to work that into my first Battle Drones character background; he was the first built, so his programming was the most basic. He was basically a big, metal attack dog with a gun on the side. He worked well, so my MM just decided to leave him like that, while upgrading other things like chassis and armour plating |
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
This.
Okay, maybe if I hadn't played MMs before Demons came along (and the Pet AI got dramatically changed to accomidate them) I wouldn't feel this way. But before that point, ranged pets tended to stay at range! (Okay, there was usually one pet that felt the need to walk up right next to the enemy, but the rest tended to hold back!) |
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Sure, it sucked to play Zombies or Ninja at that time, but my Bots/Traps was wonderfully fun. And now? With all the pets running up to hug the enemies before attacking? My Bots feel ultimately fragil. And them dieing and getting beat up more makes me notice how stupid the Supports Bots are about well, supporting. This combo is still very powerful... WHEN it works right. But now it seems to require a lot of micromanagement and more luck than it once did... which I don't really enjoy. I can no longer trust my Bots to take care of themselves while I drop Trip Mines, Poison Gas Traps, and Mortars. In short, the FUN is all gone. Which is why I ended up deleating that character a while back. I try Masterminds out on occasion, still. I highly reccommed anyone who has trouble playing Support Sets to play a Mastermind - that should teach them quick! But I doubt I'll play one regularly again until the Devs find a way to fix the AI issues. (Having more than one AI for all the pets would help a heck of a lot!) |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Hmm...if only melee-appropriate pets could have a tag that told the AI to treat them differently...
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
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This just made my day |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
"No, go here. HERE! Crying out loud, do I have to teleport you? Do NOT make me teleport you, you pile of scrap!
Shoot them. No, SHOOT them! THAT IS PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE! THAT IS NOT SHOOTING THEM! Ok, good, thank y- NO, NOT THAT MOB! DON'T AGGRO A WHOLE OTHER MOB YOU- ok, passive, follow. I said Follow. FOLLOW! This is not bloody rocket science! Ok, right, Defensive follow. I said DEFENSIVE. Yes, that means you attack them! Wha- NO, don't heal him, heal the Assault Bot! Right, look, hell with it, you stay here while I go and toe-bomb that lot. Wh-?! WHAT PART OF STAY DO YOU NOT [Beep!] GET, YOU [Beep!] [Beep!] PILE OF [Beep!]?!?" Normal day in the life of a Bots/Traps MM -_- Which is exactly why I stopped bloody playing him. |
- Im Not Talking Fast, You're Just Listening Slow.
- To Each His Own
MM was my very first AT, i had just come from... that other MMO with the elves >.> and though "oh glee! 6 pets!!" looking over the secondaries I thought "hmm robots and force fields that's super cool.. oh wait gadgets those look really cool..." then i saw Pain domination and said "healing! that's what i want to go with my 6 awesome pets!" and away I went and made my very first AT ( A decision i kick myself for to this day!) Lesson here, this isn't that -other- game. :P
BUT: I leveled that MM up clear to 50 most of it on my own solo I will not say it was a power house.. Nemesis made me cry( hello AOE and autohit!) I worked her build and reworked her build she's incarnate soft capped to S/L and 40% ranged with resists in the 40s with world of pain running. So i can survive even when my bots get smashed to bits from all the AoE in higher level content.
Are they "gimped" no,A fact proven by the fact that i did and still do prove to be formidable with one of the less strong MM seconds! Could they use some polishing? oh yes . They can be a frustrating AT, but there are times they really shine.
In many situations, Masterminds are very, very powerful. But, especially with the way Incarnate Content is working, their design is making them ever more gimped.
The AI for pets is crap. And with the increasing uses of crap patches (insta-death), and the inability to precisely control pets, you spend a lot of time summoning and buffing only to have them charge headlong into annihilation 3 seconds later.
The devs keep "forgetting" masterminds in their mechanics. A'la the level shift in the Magi trial. Things like this, and the way it's set to only buff a small number of characters, even if it is a bug, makes Masterminds and their legions of pets VERY unpopular.
There's also the fact that buffs don't roll down to pets in this game in an organic fashion the way they do with EVERY OTHER POWER IN THE GAME. I suppose we should just be grateful the level shifting doesn't insta-kill the pets the way exemping or sidekicking does in regular content right?
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Even *if* it's a bug?|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The devs keep "forgetting" masterminds in their mechanics. A'la the level shift in the Magi trial. Things like this, and the way it's set to only buff a small number of characters, even if it is a bug, makes Masterminds and their legions of pets VERY unpopular.
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It *is* a bug, no matter how much you want to overstate your 'evidence' in order to make your case.
The 16 target cap on Notice of the Well hit players as well as pets. That was an unintentional mistake aimed at neither player nor pets. If there were no pets but 24 players on the Magi League, 8 of the players would not be level shifted. That has *nothing* to do with pets.
Once it was pointed out, it was immediately slated for a fix; which is evidence that it definitely *is* a bug. So, hardly a sleight against MM pets intentionally or part of some imagined systemic anti-MM-pet agenda.
BTW, MM pets have been pretty much been made immune to the Keyes' zone-wide damage pulses and AM's green cylinder of death. For that iTrial, MMs have a clear advantage over other ATs.
My MM is T4'd in all incarnate slots (except Hybrid simply because I haven't had the time yet) and is my secondary iMerit farmer. MMs can be successful in all iTrials; some trials more so than others, but, I find that to be true for all ATs.
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Yeah. Try getting more than a couple masterminds onto a Magi trial right now.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Even *if* it's a bug?
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| It *is* a bug, no matter how much you want to overstate your 'evidence' in order to make your case. |
I'm not saying it's a deliberate vendetta against MMs or anything. But the devs keep forgetting certain type of AoE effects will penalize groups with masterminds in it. Leading to people discriminating against the AT.
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| BTW, MM pets have been pretty much been made immune to the Keyes' zone-wide damage pulses and AM's green cylinder of death. For that iTrial, MMs have a clear advantage over other ATs. |
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| My MM is T4'd in all incarnate slots (except Hybrid simply because I haven't had the time yet) and is my secondary iMerit farmer. MMs can be successful in all iTrials; some trials more so than others, but, I find that to be true for all ATs. |
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@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!