Nonsensical enemy combat AI
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-06-03 23:19 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I think it's done like that so as melee avatars don't have to chase the mobs so much 
@Golden Girl
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Half the time they teleport back into the vicinity and then stroll back to their spawn point like, "Ha ha! Ha! Sure fooled that hero standing right there! I'm going to completely ignore him/her until I come to a complete stop at my spawn point, then I shall do a double take after my walking instructions are done and I can check perception data, and then I shall teleport away again!" ARRGHHHH.
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Originally Posted by Mister Rik
... waiting for the teleporter to finally come back (and they always do, they always do...)
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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The idea behind Wing Raiders is sort of the same behind Eagles - they run away and shoot at you from range. The problem is that this is caused by a pulsing self-fear power which mimics this behaviour by a means that's not exactly precise. They'll run away, sure, but what they do AFTERWARDS isn't always predictable. If the NPC's AI had decided to use Brawl, it will probably come back to that after it runs. It's why Eagles have no melee attacks.
Porters and Sorcerers are probably using a different AI quirk altogether, but I highly suspect it's some kind of pulsing AI command that orders them to use Teleport. Because they seem to have control over this only when they're teleporting TO an enemy, they just port around at random.
Fun fact: Teleportation is not instant relocation, it's just REALLY fast movement. If a Sorcerer teleports past you and you have an attack queued up on him, you'll hit him, even if he started from out of range and appeared still out of range. You can see this if they have a debuff on them, how it stretches between the point of teleport and appearance.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Ugh, I was fighting Sorcerors the other day with my Staff scrapper to try and get a last tip to drop. Dear gods, could they make those guys ANY more annoying? They are the ultimate troll;
Massive To-Hit AoE Debuff? Check.
Massive To-Hit AoE Debuff with knockback? Check
Ally heal that they don't only use on Tsoo? Check
Teleport and never stand bloody still for any amount of time? Oh, Check!
Ugh. Just frustrating.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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I know it's just movement for players (which is why we can't teleport around corners) but if its the same system for enemies like Tsoo, how can they teleport around corners and into completely different rooms?
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Fun fact: Teleportation is not instant relocation, it's just REALLY fast movement. If a Sorcerer teleports past you and you have an attack queued up on him, you'll hit him, even if he started from out of range and appeared still out of range. You can see this if they have a debuff on them, how it stretches between the point of teleport and appearance. |
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Because their AI can percieve through things that block player Line of Sight.
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Originally Posted by Vyver
I know it's just movement for players (which is why we can't teleport around corners) but if its the same system for enemies like Tsoo, how can they teleport around corners and into completely different rooms?
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-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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Huh? I teleport around (through) corners all the time. It's all about the camera angle.
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Originally Posted by Vyver
I know it's just movement for players (which is why we can't teleport around corners) but if its the same system for enemies like Tsoo, how can they teleport around corners and into completely different rooms?
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Exactly, it would make perfect sense if they flew 30 feet away and then shot at me. But you've explained why Eagles don't annoy me this way.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The idea behind Wing Raiders is sort of the same behind Eagles - they run away and shoot at you from range. The problem is that this is caused by a pulsing self-fear power which mimics this behaviour by a means that's not exactly precise. They'll run away, sure, but what they do AFTERWARDS isn't always predictable. If the NPC's AI had decided to use Brawl, it will probably come back to that after it runs. It's why Eagles have no melee attacks.
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| Fun fact: Teleportation is not instant relocation, it's just REALLY fast movement. If a Sorcerer teleports past you and you have an attack queued up on him, you'll hit him, even if he started from out of range and appeared still out of range. You can see this if they have a debuff on them, how it stretches between the point of teleport and appearance. |
From my observations, it seems that attacks go off based on where the mob is at the start of the animation*, not where they are when the attack actually goes off. So if I use an instant AoE, it will only affect (either hit or miss) those mobs who were in range when the animation started. If a mob was out of range when the animation started but runs into range before the actual attack happens, it's as if they weren't there at all - the attack neither hits nor misses, it simply "ignores" them. And in the same way, a mob that was in range when the animation started, but runs or teleports before the attack "hits" will still be hit. I do enjoy it so much when I land a "killing blow" just as a Porter ports away, and I can see him "die" just as he rematerializes on the other side of the map
* And because of this, I'm always amused at how the technology behind my Nemesis Staff is so advanced that it can tell me I've missed before I've even finished pulling it out.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Ally heal that they don't only use on Tsoo? Check
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Another curious thing about Tsoo (though I don't count this as "nonsensical"): Are their spawn numbers intentionally calculated differently from other enemy groups? It seems the general rule for enemy spawns inside missions is based on "3": 3 minions in a group, or 1 lieutenant + 1 minion. But in the Tsoo mission I was doing last night, the base seemed to be "4": 4 minions, or 1 lieutenant + 2 minions. Maybe it was simply that the particular mob types in that mission always appear in pairs, so spawning three was impossible.
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Yeah, but these enemy mobs can teleport halfway across the map, in such a way that they're passing through multiple walls, and too many corners to see around no matter what they do with camera angle.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Huh? I teleport around (through) corners all the time. It's all about the camera angle.
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Fanwank: Every Sky Raider carries a small teleport beacon, allowing Porters to instantly teleport to an ally's location.
Quiet, all of you.
If you make a fuss, the Devs might give all groups the AI of Scrapyarders who do scatter and ambush correctly. <shudder>
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Teleportation is movement in the sense that the character is taken from one location and placed in the other, and is considered to be at all places along the path in the meantime. It's how all movement works, only regular movement "pulses" in shorter hops and is restricted when characters encounter clip boxes. There's no reason, however, that movement has to respect those clip boxes for the same reason most FPS games have a "no clip" mode somewhere in their guts, be it accessible through cheats, the developer console or by hacking the engine. It's not a restriction.|
Originally Posted by Vyver
I know it's just movement for players (which is why we can't teleport around corners) but if its the same system for enemies like Tsoo, how can they teleport around corners and into completely different rooms?
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Players can similarly teleport through terrain so long as they have line of sight between their camera and where they're teleporting. That's why ye olde porters used to use a slash command to force their camera back about something like 300 feet - to get a better view. The AI does teleport with no need for line of sight, but that's only because line of sight is a limitation on our control interface for the power, not because the mechanic requires it. It's like being unable to hit something you can't target not because it's invincible, but more because you have no means of requesting the attack to happen. It's also why you CAN hit enemies who have thus placated you with PBAoEs and location-spawned pseudo-pets.
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Originally Posted by Mister Rik
From my observations, it seems that attacks go off based on where the mob is at the start of the animation*, not where they are when the attack actually goes off. So if I use an instant AoE, it will only affect (either hit or miss) those mobs who were in range when the animation started. If a mob was out of range when the animation started but runs into range before the actual attack happens, it's as if they weren't there at all - the attack neither hits nor misses, it simply "ignores" them. And in the same way, a mob that was in range when the animation started, but runs or teleports before the attack "hits" will still be hit. I do enjoy it so much when I land a "killing blow" just as a Porter ports away, and I can see him "die" just as he rematerializes on the other side of the map
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The answer is obvious!
Knockback.
Why, Mr. Zombie Man! Thanks for the lovely suggestion!
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Warrant
Why, Mr. Zombie Man! Thanks for the lovely suggestion!
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I gave Television a bunch of ideas here back around I19 but then he ran away. They were similar to the ideas I gave to pohsyb, before he ran away. I was going to discuss them with Black Scorpion at some point, but he ran away.|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Warrant
Why, Mr. Zombie Man! Thanks for the lovely suggestion!
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Actually, I'm beginning to sense a pattern here. Now that I think about it, shortly after emailing me for the first time Positron stepped down as design lead. Hmm...
So AW, about critter AI? Lets chat about that. I'm sure its just all just a big coincidence.
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I'm not saying they should change this, but I've always been amused by how, when you attack a base, all of the enemies almost always just keep standing around wherever they happen to be. "Yeah, the heroes managed to kill my buddies up there in that room, but they said guard the nondescript hallway, Bob. So come hell or high water, I WILL guard the nondescript hallway."
I always thought some missions might be a little more... um... interesting if, as soon as you attack someone and they know you're there, an alarm goes off and they send everyone to fight off the attackers.
What do you mean, everyone?
EVERYONE!!!!!
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There should probably also be some kind of perception modifier. For example, if I kill someone with a GRENADE LAUNCHER, you'd think someone on the other side of the room would be likely to notice. Moreso than, for example, if I used a katana.
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One could possibly add in a scatter-spawn of psuedopets that pulse a (weak) taunt (say they spawn N/E/S/W at 40' out, and do a 20' taunt) to mimick this.
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
There should probably also be some kind of perception modifier. For example, if I kill someone with a GRENADE LAUNCHER, you'd think someone on the other side of the room would be likely to notice. Moreso than, for example, if I used a katana.
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You could also tamper with the alert signalling code that generates an alert signal when a critter dies, that acts to put any critter that receives that alert into altered mode (basically, looking for and engaging players). You could have attacks also generate alerts, with bigger and stronger attacks generating higher alerts. Explosions could generate large scale alerts separate from dying critters and cause all the critters in the area to start looking for the players (without being directly aggroed upon them).|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
One could possibly add in a scatter-spawn of psuedopets that pulse a (weak) taunt (say they spawn N/E/S/W at 40' out, and do a 20' taunt) to mimick this.
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This is my understanding of how critters respond to a player. They start with a certain low perception radius. If you are outside that radius they just don't notice you at all. However, if you attack a critter by default that critter aggros upon you. It also sends out an alert signal to all nearby critters within the same spawn. Those critters get alerted, and go into an alert state. In that state their perception radius increases significantly, and they can detect the players even if they did not do so originally. They then start aggroing on whatever players are nearby, until something causes them to change their focus.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Warrant
Why, Mr. Zombie Man! Thanks for the lovely suggestion!
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The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
Re: Tsoo Sorceror (Sorc) teleporting: I always assumed it was something along the lines of 'preserving the healer'.
Situation: The group including a Sorc aggros. Ink Men begin attack, Sorc ports off. After someone gets to half health, Sorc ports in (usually with -to-Hit running, more Sorc preservation) drops his heals on the injured party, and ports off again.
This way, it is slightly harder to target the 'healer'. Either you drop a Mez on the Sorc at the start of the fight, chase him down after he ports away (probably gathering more aggroed spawns), or switch targets to him when he comes back (and whiff a lot due to -ToHit) hoping to drop him before he takes off again.
All that said however, it IS annoying that they TP off when Morale breaks and come back half an hour later. Same with Headmen Gunmen from the Rikti, and Sky Raider Porters. Just one reason I try to drop Teleporters first (or second if there's a bigger threat like Comm Officers or Raider Engineers).
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People have suggested this previously, but it always comes down less to making enemies smarter than it does to making fights plain harder by throwing in more enemies and thus further rewarding AoE-centric builds and those with high survivability. I realise it's stupid that you can explode a super nova in a room and still have people across the floor not notice you, but it's a break from reality I'm happy to accept since it makes combat more manageable. I can always aggro more enemies if I want to simulate this, but I'd rather not have this forced on me.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
I'm not saying they should change this, but I've always been amused by how, when you attack a base, all of the enemies almost always just keep standing around wherever they happen to be. "Yeah, the heroes managed to kill my buddies up there in that room, but they said guard the nondescript hallway, Bob. So come hell or high water, I WILL guard the nondescript hallway."
I always thought some missions might be a little more... um... interesting if, as soon as you attack someone and they know you're there, an alarm goes off and they send everyone to fight off the attackers. What do you mean, everyone? EVERYONE!!!!! |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It occurred to me today that I would enjoy the Sky Raiders and the Tsoo much more as enemy groups if certain aspects of their combat AI made any kind of sense at all. I mean what, exactly, is the point of:
"Wing Raider Johnson to Command Central!"
"Go ahead, WR Johnson."
"Sir, I've spotted a hero! What are my orders?"
"WR Johnson, you are ordered to execute Combat Maneuver 'Alpha-Foxtrot-Seven'."
"Sir, I'm not familiar with that maneuver..."
"Johnson, you idiot! Fly 30 feet directly away from the hero, perform a 180° turn, and fly directly back to the hero!"
"... er, yes Sir! And then what?"
"Brawl."
"Brawl? But I have a beam rifle..."
"Brawl, Johnson! BRAWL!"
-or-
"Porter Schmidt! Initiate Hero Response Protocol!"
"Sir! Initiating Hero Response Protocol!"
*Attempts to hit hero with Brawl, then proceeds to randomly teleport around the map for the next several minutes*
Tsoo Sorcerers are pretty much the same as Sky Raider Porters - random teleporting for no apparent reason. I mean, come on. What purpose does this behavior serve? The only time this seems to be effective is when I have an NPC ally, because if that NPC ally is targeting the Porter or Sorcerer when he teleports, the NPC will race off after him at super speed, aggroing every mob on the map in the process and getting himself killed. As a player with a non-artificial intelligence, I'm not fooled. I think I learned by my second door mission to not chase runners into unexplored areas of the map, which means that all this teleporting accomplishes nothing but annoying me at having to stand around waiting for the teleporter to finally come back (and they always do, they always do...)