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1. No but it can do it.|
Originally Posted by Purus
Some background, I'm looking at moving some of my characters to Virtue from Freedom and I am thinking about running a concept only policy for everything based on my main character.
I have an Ill/Rad whom I adore but I was considering re-rolling him on virtue to fit the new concept ideals. When I look at my current build I don't use many of the rad powerset so I was wondering on a performance basis how they compare. My main questions are : 1. Will a Ill/Dark solo a GM as easily as an Ill/Rad 2. Does having a Dark Servant make a difference 3. How much will I miss lingering radiation Many Thanks |
2. A difference in - to hit yes
3. It's a style difference for the -regen for dark is in the heal and the revive. Yes, you will miss a one click -regen, but not much.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Sorry your wrong ill/dark has more debuffing potential and I've had both at the very extremes in this game and ill/dark drops hard targets like avs/gms considerably faster then ill/rad.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
1. No but it can do it.
2. A difference in - to hit yes 3. It's a style difference for the -regen for dark is in the heal and the revive. Yes, you will miss a one click -regen, but not much. |
At the recharge levels we are talking about ill/dark has -60% res from two tar patches where as rad only gets -22.5% res. That's a big drop when you have 5 or 6 pets dpsing for ya. howling twilight is up 30 out of 45 seconds 66% of the time rad beats it with 100% up time but but the mega butt ton more minus res dark gets more then makes up for it.
Rad is the cheaper and easier build to put together cause it gets accelerate metabolism and dark is gonna need 3 purple sets to make up for that recharge AM gives but when doing so it just brings dark into crazy levels of foe debuffage.
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Dark Affinity is a very good set with lots more ToHit Debuff than Rad, and Fluffy can be very handy with all the little things he does: Healing, ToHit Debuff, Immob, Hold and another distraction away from you. But you will be giving up some things, too.|
Originally Posted by Purus
Some background, I'm looking at moving some of my characters to Virtue from Freedom and I am thinking about running a concept only policy for everything based on my main character.
I have an Ill/Rad whom I adore but I was considering re-rolling him on virtue to fit the new concept ideals. When I look at my current build I don't use many of the rad powerset so I was wondering on a performance basis how they compare. My main questions are : 1. Will a Ill/Dark solo a GM as easily as an Ill/Rad 2. Does having a Dark Servant make a difference 3. How much will I miss lingering radiation Many Thanks |
To answer your questions . . .
1. No. Dark's -Regen is overall less. Howling Twilight is on a long recharge, and the small amount of -Regen in Twilight Grasp doesn't compare to Ling Rad. Your -Resistance power, Tar Patch is great as long as the AV doesn't move, but if you have a mobile AV, then EF is far better (and you don't have to disrupt your attacks to re-cast it). Yes, Dark can, with enough Recharge, stack Tar Patch for more -Resistance and that is significant . . . only if the AV doesn't move. Plus, AM gives a damage boost (and several other buffs) to you and Phantasm which pretty much makes up for the higher -Resistance in (a single) Tar Patch.
2. Yes, Fluffy is really nice. He adds his own Twilight Grasp to heal you and add a little bit of -Regen. He adds some -ToHit (which has substantially reduced effect on the AV), and he provides another distraction. His effect won't be huge, but he will provide some benefit.
3. Yes, you will miss Ling Rad. LR provides a huge amount of -Regen that is perma with a high-recharge build. This has a big effect on killing AVs. Dark has nothing to compare.
While Ling Rad is significant, I think losing AM is bigger. You lose a great Recharge, Recovery, Damage buff that also reduces the duration of mez, adds some run speed (The ability to run away faster can save you). The Recovery in particular is important because AV fights often go on so long that endurance becomes an issue.
And another little difference that could be important: Rad's heal doesn't require a hit. Twilight Grasp is a bigger heal, but requires a hit on a target. An untimely miss could be disasterous.
Another small difference: Two of Rad's three debuffs are toggles. That means you don't have to keep disrupting your attacks to re-cast them. EF provides -Resistance, but also adds -Damage. RI adds -Defense to the -ToHit.
By the way, if you aren't using AM and EF continually on your Ill/Rad, you are missing out on Rad's benefits. RI is more situational due to the longer cast time, but EF helps you kill stuff faster while reducing the damage they can do to you. The -Damage in EF is often forgotten.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
I don't usually post comments, but I have to say that for me ... Ill/Dark is by far much better than Ill/rad which has been my main for years even with him being fully slotted with purples and all tier 4 powers. I created a Ill/Dark as an alt and it has quickly become my main, in fact I can't imagine going back to Ill/Rad ... dark for me is so much better. With the -to hit stacked with a perma defense + SA recovery and regen I am nigh unkillable. I have PA, Phantasm, Fluffy, Tarantula ... all perma plus the incarnate pets ... /rad just doesn't compare. I solo +4 x8 with AV and had no real problems yet. You may have differing opinions, but in my book, Ill/Dark is the better build.
I just wanted to provide facts from a disinterested perspective. Disinterested in that I have bias to neither rad nor dark. If anything I'd potentially have a bias to rad because I do have a top end ill/rad, but not ill/dark. I say that for full disclosure.
With that out of the way, let's look at numbers. As mentioned upthread, for a perma-PA build, Howling Twilight is up 30 seconds and recharges in 45, so that's 2/3 uptime, 1/3 down. One casting of Twilight Grasp may indeed be "small" but it does stack. For arguments sake, let's just say in 20 seconds you fire it off 4 times, may be more, may be less, but 4 sounds reasonable. I use 20 seconds because that's the duration of the -regen debuff. That's a constant .5 * 4 = 2.0 -regen debuff. Let's call it 1.9 to account for 5% misses. So for 30 seconds Dark provides 5 (HT, autohit so no adjustments needed) + 1.9 = 6.9 -regen. For 15 seconds it's 1.9 -regen. That's a weighted average of 5.23333. Lingering Rad, as previously mentioned, is perma on high recharge, but what wasn't mentioned was that it requires a to-hit check. That gives LR an average -regen of 4.75. Dark can't compare? The numbers say otherwise.
Further, PA will always provide more damage from just 1 Tar Patch, let alone 2, than it ever could from EF and AM, since AM won't affect them. The player and Phantasm would provide more damage from EF * AM than from 1 Tar Patch, but 2 Tar Patches blow it out of the water. Given the assumption of a perma-PA build, then 2 TPs would always be out, once a second was cast. I promised numbers didn't I? Assuming 95% damage enhancements, Rad would provide (1 + .95 + .2) * (1 + .225) = 2.634, Dark with 1 TP = (1 + .95) * (1 + .3) = 2.535, 2 TP = (1 + .95) * (1 + 2*.3) = 3.12.
What wasn't mentioned yet in this thread is that EF can detoggle due to mez. Yes in today's world there are ways to mitigate that, but without Clarion or Indomitable Will, it's a risk.
So, with that, back to the OP's 3 questions...
1) There's testimony in this thread that yes Dark can and the numbers support that.
2) Yes, I have nothing to add to this question that hasn't been said before in this thread. This is one of the game's great pets.
3) You won't.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
I'm finding this conversation pretty intriguing, since I have a young Ill/Dark Controller. I'm fairly new to the game and only have two controllers so far, but I'm loving this combo so far and hadn't seen anyone else's discussion of it yet.
My apologies for the slightly divergent post. Please return to the discussion of the high-end performance discussions.
This debate is raging as much here as in my head !
Pros of Dark over Rad
Tar Patch - Not a toggle
Wont cause an anchor to run aimlessly round the mission map
Fade - Helps out with just in case defense
Howling T - Not only - regen but a stun too
Fluffy - Always nice to have
Stuns will not knock off toggles
Tar Patch & Howling T should make solo x8 easier and quicker
Cons
No AM making perma PA more difficult
LR is on a faster recharge
RA requires no hit check however heals for less
Howling T will not be perma
At the moment Im considering investing time into an ill/dark, at the moment.......
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You should consider your heart in these matters from time to time, not just the logic.|
Originally Posted by Purus
This debate is raging as much here as in my head !
Pros of Dark over Rad Tar Patch - Not a toggle Wont cause an anchor to run aimlessly round the mission map Fade - Helps out with just in case defense Howling T - Not only - regen but a stun too Fluffy - Always nice to have Stuns will not knock off toggles Tar Patch & Howling T should make solo x8 easier and quicker Cons No AM making perma PA more difficult LR is on a faster recharge RA requires no hit check however heals for less Howling T will not be perma At the moment Im considering investing time into an ill/dark, at the moment....... |
I love both Rad and Dark. My first characters to make it into the 20s were an Ill/Rad Controller and a Dark/Elec Defender. Loved them both, but really wanted to Play Ill/Dark not only for concept, but because I felt the combination was perfect. Finally after 8 years of waiting, Ill/Dark has arrived. I say go Ill/Dark because of the fact that you have not done that yet. If you run an Ill/Rad, you are already familiar with the character. It will be like reading your favorite book for the second time. Sure it will be good, but you know how the story ends.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Ive rolled one just for this reason, I'm cautious with new toons now, the number ive got to relatively high levels and then deleted is not funny
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Originally Posted by Biospark
You should consider your heart in these matters from time to time, not just the logic.
I love both Rad and Dark. My first characters to make it into the 20s were an Ill/Rad Controller and a Dark/Elec Defender. Loved them both, but really wanted to Play Ill/Dark not only for concept, but because I felt the combination was perfect. Finally after 8 years of waiting, Ill/Dark has arrived. I say go Ill/Dark because of the fact that you have not done that yet. If you run an Ill/Rad, you are already familiar with the character. It will be like reading your favorite book for the second time. Sure it will be good, but you know how the story ends. |
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1. Yes,. Consider that your general strategy will be the same with either: tank the GM with perma-PA, then seriously debuff both its regen and damage resistance. Whether one does it faster than the other will be up to the individual build and the player using it. With Darkest Night and Fade, along with all your other -to-hit powers, the GM will not hit you or your hittable pets very often, and when it does it won't hurt much.|
Originally Posted by Purus
Some background, I'm looking at moving some of my characters to Virtue from Freedom and I am thinking about running a concept only policy for everything based on my main character.
I have an Ill/Rad whom I adore but I was considering re-rolling him on virtue to fit the new concept ideals. When I look at my current build I don't use many of the rad powerset so I was wondering on a performance basis how they compare. My main questions are : 1. Will a Ill/Dark solo a GM as easily as an Ill/Rad 2. Does having a Dark Servant make a difference 3. How much will I miss lingering radiation Many Thanks |
2. Yes. Dark Servant not only helps to keep you safe by reducing your enemy's chance to hit you, it also heals, it holds, and it AoE immobilizes. It is one of the best pets in the game.
3. You won't. You will have Howling Twilight for -regen, which(unlike Lingering Radiation) will never miss. Not only will it never miss, but it also has the benefit of being an AoE stun, and should any of your comrades have fallen in battle, it's also an AoE rez.
I've played Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm, Ill/Time and Ill/Dark, and without a doubt my Ill/Dark has replaced my Ill/Rad as my "go to" character when I want to get the job done right. I still like my Ill/Rad, but I guess it's that I find myself doing just as much with my Ill/Dark, and then realizing that the whole time spent dominating everything in sight I've forgotten to even use my single toggle power. Yeah, it's kinda like that.
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Hehe, right there with you. Even my name sake has been re-rolled several times before finally staying with Emp/Electric all the way to 50. I have even re-rolled a level 50 Tank and a level 47 Blaster. I have the condition that is the terminal version of "Alt-itus"
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Originally Posted by Purus
Ive rolled one just for this reason, I'm cautious with new toons now, the number ive got to relatively high levels and then deleted is not funny
|
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Well....Im at 50 with 3 Incarnates at T3 and I must say|
Originally Posted by Purus
My main questions are :
1. Will a Ill/Dark solo a GM as easily as an Ill/Rad 2. Does having a Dark Servant make a difference 3. How much will I miss lingering radiation Many Thanks |
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Lingering what???
It certainly seems on par with ill/rad for single target and for x8 plays much better
Pour a ridiculous amount of inf into an ill/cold and beat both of em.
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1. I have ran both these sets and I find that my Ill/Dark out preforms my ill/rad which has been deleted. Fluffy is a great addition to the pet less rad build. The stacked -regen that fluffy, HT, and the heal provides is definitely noticeable in EB/AV/GM fights.|
Originally Posted by Purus
Some background, I'm looking at moving some of my characters to Virtue from Freedom and I am thinking about running a concept only policy for everything based on my main character.
I have an Ill/Rad whom I adore but I was considering re-rolling him on virtue to fit the new concept ideals. When I look at my current build I don't use many of the rad powerset so I was wondering on a performance basis how they compare. My main questions are : 1. Will a Ill/Dark solo a GM as easily as an Ill/Rad 2. Does having a Dark Servant make a difference 3. How much will I miss lingering radiation Many Thanks |
2. Yes double the heal and stacked -th with controls of his own.
3. I don't, not sure if you will either
if any power I'd miss it would be AM, although +damage does not do much direct damage buffing to Illusionists in general outside of spectral wounds and the single target hold, but I still get perm PA on /dark build too.
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I would like to know more about the awesomeness of Ill/Cold.
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Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Pour a ridiculous amount of inf into an ill/cold and beat both of em.
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Save the drama for yo' mama.
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Illusion/Cold is a better AV killer than Ill/Rad, and I'm sure it is better than Ill/Dark. Cold borrows many of the best powers from */Storm and then adds some other really nice powers.|
Originally Posted by Cryokinesis
I would like to know more about the awesomeness of Ill/Cold.
|
The two single target debuffs plus Sleet (which can be stacked and proc'ed out) put out a huge amount of Resistance debuff and lots of -Regen. Sleet with 4 procs puts out a respectable amount of AoE damage along with its debuff and Knockdown.
For your teammates you have wonderful defensive Ice Shields . . . which, with Arctic Mist give you three powers in your secondary that take Luck of the Gambler Recharge. While you don't have a +Recharge power, it is not too tough to make up a build with Perma PA.
Plus you get Heat Loss, which is like the Fulcrum Shift for Endurance, providing a huge Recovery buff. You can buff your recovery for those long AV fights.
What you don't get is a self-heal. */Cold is also a late-developing build, as you get two of the best powers at 35 and 38.
My personal opinion is that Ill/Rad may be a more flexible all-purpose build, but Ill/Cold is flat-out better at killing (and helping to kill) single tough targets. I haven't yet played an Ill/Dark as I already have 5 level 50 Illusion controllers, and I have played plenty of Dark -- I'm working on a Dark/Dark controller, and have several Dark Miasma toons at 50. Obviously there are several Ill/Dark fans in this thread. But I bet that Ill/Cold will be faster at killing AVs. Back in the pre-Incarnate days, I would often bring my Ill/Cold on the STF and it would shave 5-10 minutes off of our time because the tough targets would drop faster -- and that was with a really, really good team.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Shame on you all. This has been the most offensive, impolite, insulting, and non-constructive thread as has ever surfaced on the CoH forums. Especially you, Local_Man, what with your helpful and insightful posts. Tsk tsk.
:P
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Originally Posted by Little_Whorn
Shame on you all. This has been the most offensive, impolite, insulting, and non-constructive thread as has ever surfaced on the CoH forums. Especially you, Local_Man, what with your helpful and insightful posts. Tsk tsk.
:P |
{Averts eyes and looks guilty}
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Most interesting. I all of a sudden feel really bad that I just learned about slapping tons of procs into the various rain attacks. Time for some altitis, and to make tons of Ill/* controllers!
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Illusion/Cold is a better AV killer than Ill/Rad, and I'm sure it is better than Ill/Dark. Cold borrows many of the best powers from */Storm and then adds some other really nice powers.
The two single target debuffs plus Sleet (which can be stacked and proc'ed out) put out a huge amount of Resistance debuff and lots of -Regen. Sleet with 4 procs puts out a respectable amount of AoE damage along with its debuff and Knockdown. For your teammates you have wonderful defensive Ice Shields . . . which, with Arctic Mist give you three powers in your secondary that take Luck of the Gambler Recharge. While you don't have a +Recharge power, it is not too tough to make up a build with Perma PA. Plus you get Heat Loss, which is like the Fulcrum Shift for Endurance, providing a huge Recovery buff. You can buff your recovery for those long AV fights. What you don't get is a self-heal. */Cold is also a late-developing build, as you get two of the best powers at 35 and 38. My personal opinion is that Ill/Rad may be a more flexible all-purpose build, but Ill/Cold is flat-out better at killing (and helping to kill) single tough targets. I haven't yet played an Ill/Dark as I already have 5 level 50 Illusion controllers, and I have played plenty of Dark -- I'm working on a Dark/Dark controller, and have several Dark Miasma toons at 50. Obviously there are several Ill/Dark fans in this thread. But I bet that Ill/Cold will be faster at killing AVs. Back in the pre-Incarnate days, I would often bring my Ill/Cold on the STF and it would shave 5-10 minutes off of our time because the tough targets would drop faster -- and that was with a really, really good team. |
Save the drama for yo' mama.
I have both.. and both are excellent.. one might even say.. overkill...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Despite whatever triggered the mod intervention, (Dang you LM for bringing down the mod-hammer with being helpful and specific in your comments!) this is a great thread.
I think after I finish with leveling up my current Dark/Storm character, I'l have to do an Ill/Dark. I've dabbled with a few Illusion/ characters, but never got them up very high, and I love the general synergy I see with Ill/Dark. The only real issue I see with it for single hard target is what LM pointed out: Hard single targets that move around a lot would be a problem as they will keep moving out of the Tar patch. Without the immobs that other sets get, I can see some difficult situations.
But hey, for the chaos control approach I think it would be a fun combo, and I'd love to pair Fuffy with Illusion's stable of pets, great fun.
Arg
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Oh the triple digit dude was being a dick because he misunderstood a response made to OP. You know the standard stupid stuff some people do around here.|
Originally Posted by Argentae
Despite whatever triggered the mod intervention
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I have never tried /cold, might have to give it a look.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I was going to pipe in earlier (before the drama happened) and sing the praises of Ill/Cold. It isn't all perma'd out (Its really close though) and pretty much feels like one of my most powerful trollers. I also have an Ill/Therm, nice but nothing over the top strong. It's also my main marketeer and has pretty much retired from hero work. (That's not an RP thing, I just haven't respec'd her since inherent fitness, etc. and she makes meh monies so she's serving a purpose 
) I also have an Ill/Time which is probably one of my favorite trollers for fun and ease of powerful build: perma everything and softcapped defenses with minimal effort. Not a cheap build, but a pretty easy one to put together without the need for chasing defense bonuses and LOTG +recharges.
In the long run I don't know as the current builds stand if the /Cold or /Time is more powerful but I'm pretty positive if I gave the /Cold build the influence treatment and tweaked it to more perma'd etc it would hands down be the most powerful troller I have.
That said, I'm just finishing up a dark/dark and will likely move on to an Ill/Dark which I really really really can't wait to play.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
Some background, I'm looking at moving some of my characters to Virtue from Freedom and I am thinking about running a concept only policy for everything based on my main character.
I have an Ill/Rad whom I adore but I was considering re-rolling him on virtue to fit the new concept ideals.
When I look at my current build I don't use many of the rad powerset so I was wondering on a performance basis how they compare.
My main questions are :
1. Will a Ill/Dark solo a GM as easily as an Ill/Rad
2. Does having a Dark Servant make a difference
3. How much will I miss lingering radiation
Many Thanks