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Its possible, but it might not be necessary. Blasters can already shoot while mezzed. If those attacks can incapacitate mezzers, that eliminates chain mez *and* it reduces the damage the blaster takes while mezzed. It sort of puts the blaster in a "defensive" mode of trying to use two or three attacks to keep the enemy off balance until the mez breaks, which I think is all by itself a reasonable thing to have happen. It would actually be a case of mez acting in a non-binary manner, something that has been suggested for the game for almost as long as the game has existed.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Very interesting. And I agree with the idea of coming up with a different way to make offense defense, beyond damage.
The counter-mez is a very interesting idea... I like that concept a lot. Could that possibly be applied to break out of a mez as well? If we blast the enemy responsible for mez'ing us, we break it. Maybe one for immobs and two for holds. I'm not sure if that is feasible at all, but I just thought I'd mention it. |
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a quick comment on concerns about blasters being "too survivable":
if pretty much anyone can tear through pretty much anything in the game from 1-50 playing a scrapper or brute (and to greater or lesser extents stalkers, tanks & some controllers & corrupters), I'm not seeing the "unbalancing" aspect of blasters being able to do the same thing.
I guess I'm not seeing the "balance" advantages of an AT that spends most of its time being mezzed or running back from the hosptial.
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The Blaster secondaries are their weakness, lacking them the tools they truly need. My idea was instead of changing existing powers within their secondary, adding multiple power options per Tier. Include tools that Blasters didn't have before, and at the same time not violate the "Cottage Rule". Players with the original powers who were happy with them before could still keep those powers.
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cuts holds in half? You used this power? I am thinking not. All I take it for is the little ground area hold clouds and the stupid minion holds. But they still stack and land on me anyway. Its usefulness is too minor to count on. My bf likes jumping pool, so its a free tiny power for the level 49 slot for him, but useful? uhhh.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about though. People don't want to take the mez resistance that is available because they don't think it's worth it, then complain that there isn't enough available.
Acrobatics cuts hold time in half. That's pretty huge. Add in the mez resistance available through IOs and Incarnates and mez should never be an issue. It's simply a matter of using the tools that are available. You might have to make sacrifices to get it, and you might not have a strictly min/max build, but it is there. I see this as the problem. People want the defense capped builds, but they don't want to accept the sacrifices necessary to get it. It's just easier to ask the Devs to fix the problem for them. |
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I've always thought that, or at least for as long as I've fully grasped the game's offensive mechanics. Blaster ranged attacks tend to have lower than average DPA (single target), that DPA doesn't always improve significantly with tier (alternatively, they tend to lack high DPA ranged attacks that can be cycled), and they even collectively tend to lack actual range. Outside of 40 feet, my energy blaster has only three actual attacks usable in theory: power bolt, power blast, and explosive blast. That's a couple too few for non-invention builds with high recharge, in other words almost everyone else.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I've really begun to think that the attack type setup for Blasters is a major culprit
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Then lets remove mez protection from everyone, and let everyone use the solution you suggests to deal with mez, since with this solution mez with never be an issue.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about though. People don't want to take the mez resistance that is available because they don't think it's worth it, then complain that there isn't enough available.
Acrobatics cuts hold time in half. That's pretty huge. Add in the mez resistance available through IOs and Incarnates and mez should never be an issue. It's simply a matter of using the tools that are available. You might have to make sacrifices to get it, and you might not have a strictly min/max build, but it is there. I see this as the problem. People want the defense capped builds, but they don't want to accept the sacrifices necessary to get it. It's just easier to ask the Devs to fix the problem for them. |
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yeah, they balanced blaster AT with the rest of the AT's by assigning it the role of 'punching bag dummy'...
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Originally Posted by DrGemini
The reason it would throw off the balance is because of the way the developers designed Blasters to begin with.
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To be fair, it was tankers that were the original punching bag dummy. Blasters were not designed to actually take a punch.|
Originally Posted by Candy_Heart
yeah, they balanced blaster AT with the rest of the AT's by assigning it the role of 'punching bag dummy'...
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Its easy to forget how dramatically broken *everything* was at the beginning, and how Blasters still preserve a lot of legacy from those days. Controllers used to have very little damage until their level 32 pets. Half the scrapper secondaries were by today's standards non-functional (SR, DA). Factoring in melee set improvements, modifier changes, and bruising, tankers were dealing almost half the damage they do today and *they* had problems, like Fiery Aura having incomplete mez protection and both invuln and stone armor being basically immobile. Illusion was broken, gravity had no pet, confuse stole XP. In and among all that, Blasters having Defender health and no defenses didn't look so bad.
Today, there are no bad scrappers, no bad tankers, no non-functional controllers. But while Blasters have been tweaked over time their structural problems are exactly identical today that they were at release.
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Just an off the top of my head thought. What about adding resistances to when they're mezzed? Not mezz resistance, but actual damage resistance? Say like 20% per stack of a power? So, lots of mezz happy critters would actually just be making it tougher to kill the blaster and just 1 mezz using boss would find the blaster less squishy?
Not a 'cure all' by any means, but seems like something that could go along with Defiance's 'act while mezzed'.
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It doesn't make a lot of conceptual sense.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Just an off the top of my head thought. What about adding resistances to when they're mezzed? Not mezz resistance, but actual damage resistance? Say like 20% per stack of a power? So, lots of mezz happy critters would actually just be making it tougher to kill the blaster and just 1 mezz using boss would find the blaster less squishy?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The concept is glass cannon. Pretty sure we're not exactly sticking strictly to concept in any of these discussions.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It doesn't make a lot of conceptual sense.
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I like Arcana's counter mez more that a + resistance buff per attack. Which by the way was asked about back in the defiance discussions and was turned down by Castle. Too many variables to consider such as how much resistance, types, duration across all the fields of possibility within Blaster capability to consider apparently.
I'm still partial to the idea of simply adding mez protection that follows Defiance stacks.
Cones/ AoEs provide +1 mez protection
Ranged attacks provide +2
Melee attacks +3
Max stack of 9.
Allow Blasters to still use their teir 1 and 2 primary attacks and teir 1 secondary attack while under a mez effect, but if enough mez is built, you break free.
Blasters are still rewarded for attacking, benefit more for the danger of being in melee, and have a chance to fight through mez all the while can still end up being vulnerable to high amounts of mez in large team situations. Also, just don't take an alpha from a +8 spawn 
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True! Yeah, my addition is really not necessary and is a bit redundant when you spell it out like you have.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its possible, but it might not be necessary. Blasters can already shoot while mezzed. If those attacks can incapacitate mezzers, that eliminates chain mez *and* it reduces the damage the blaster takes while mezzed. It sort of puts the blaster in a "defensive" mode of trying to use two or three attacks to keep the enemy off balance until the mez breaks, which I think is all by itself a reasonable thing to have happen. It would actually be a case of mez acting in a non-binary manner, something that has been suggested for the game for almost as long as the game has existed.
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Really, Energy Blast almost has the type of brief mez that you're suggesting, doesn't it (in the form of KB)? I say almost, because there are a number of factors that make it quite different.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
a quick comment on concerns about blasters being "too survivable":
if pretty much anyone can tear through pretty much anything in the game from 1-50 playing a scrapper or brute (and to greater or lesser extents stalkers, tanks & some controllers & corrupters), I'm not seeing the "unbalancing" aspect of blasters being able to do the same thing. I guess I'm not seeing the "balance" advantages of an AT that spends most of its time being mezzed or running back from the hosptial. |
I still want to see that imbalance worked out through the Blaster's offense as much as is possible. Mainly because I am not convinced that this game needs to abandon the model of a theoretical glass cannon.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've always thought that, or at least for as long as I've fully grasped the game's offensive mechanics. Blaster ranged attacks tend to have lower than average DPA (single target), that DPA doesn't always improve significantly with tier (alternatively, they tend to lack high DPA ranged attacks that can be cycled), and they even collectively tend to lack actual range. Outside of 40 feet, my energy blaster has only three actual attacks usable in theory: power bolt, power blast, and explosive blast. That's a couple too few for non-invention builds with high recharge, in other words almost everyone else.
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I'm hoping that maybe some of that problem can be remedied by altering Snipes into something like the Stalker's Assassin Strike, but I'm not sure if that's going to be possible and I'm not sure how much it will realistically do.
Turning the Nukes into better fitting Tier 9 attacks just doesn't sound right for me... but that would be another way to try and remedy the lack of higher Tier attacks that one can fit into a Blaster's chain/forte.
Unless there's also room for changing one, or more, other blast power within each and every Blaster powerset.
My thinking cap is only half on, at the moment...
@Zethustra
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Changing snipes and nukes can be part of the solution, but they can't be the focus of the solution for the simple reason that not all primaries have snipes, and the secondaries have different kinds of nukes. There's lots of room to improve Nova, but almost no room to improve Rain of Arrows. Thunderous Blast and Blizzard would require totally different thinking to revise, as would Overcharge.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Exactly! I wasn't sure my intention was understood with how poorly I worded that, heh.
I'm hoping that maybe some of that problem can be remedied by altering Snipes into something like the Stalker's Assassin Strike, but I'm not sure if that's going to be possible and I'm not sure how much it will realistically do. Turning the Nukes into better fitting Tier 9 attacks just doesn't sound right for me... but that would be another way to try and remedy the lack of higher Tier attacks that one can fit into a Blaster's chain/forte. |
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Well that also crosses into whether things like the Crashless nukes need to be revised or if they're the bar that crashing nukes should look to.
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Yeah, the variety throughout the powersets, while one of the greatest aspects of the game (in my opinion) does make any such ideas quite problematic.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Changing snipes and nukes can be part of the solution, but they can't be the focus of the solution for the simple reason that not all primaries have snipes, and the secondaries have different kinds of nukes. There's lots of room to improve Nova, but almost no room to improve Rain of Arrows. Thunderous Blast and Blizzard would require totally different thinking to revise, as would Overcharge.
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However, what about Thunderous Blast and Blizzard make them require such a drastic revision? The mezzing affect? Being Ranged?
Thunderous Blast is a nuke that I think works wonderfully and one I'd like to see remain as it is in design.
As I've said, I'd love to see crashing nukes made more powerful. Even if they want to make them cost more or recharge slower... Nukes should possibly create a greater safety for the user.
I don't know... maybe nukes should be made into a self-revive power as well.
I'd just like to see nukes take care of any situation, short of EBs and above... Maybe more damage the lower your hit points are... Something that will fire off and leave you safe for a while, whether that means everything is defeated or just simply mez'd for a good while... or if it gives you an invulnerability or heal or something to just retain the ginormous aspect of the power while being more reliable.
@Zethustra
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and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Thunderous Blast, Blizzard, and Overcharge require completely different thinking because they are mechanically different. Overcharge doesn't crash. Blizzard crashes and summons a knockdown patch (which doesn't last as long as the blaster crash). Thunderous Blast crashes and drains, although that drain does not generally incapacitate its targets unless significantly slotted for. Focusing on crash mitigation doesn't help nukes that don't crash. Focusing on strengthening the damage output of the nukes requires different balancing for rains vs direct damage. And all three are different from Nova in that they have range, while PBAoE nukes like Nova have special concerns when it comes to activation and crashing.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Yeah, the variety throughout the powersets, while one of the greatest aspects of the game (in my opinion) does make any such ideas quite problematic.
However, what about Thunderous Blast and Blizzard make them require such a drastic revision? The mezzing affect? Being Ranged? Thunderous Blast is a nuke that I think works wonderfully and one I'd like to see remain as it is in design. |
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This is more of a rhetorical comment, but, frankly, I don't see much wrong with boosting Blasters' damage to the point where they can wipe entire groups of mobs in a couple shots. If Tankers, the "I'm best at taking damage" AT, can wade into large groups of high level mobs and almost ignore their attacks while taking them out, then is it really more ludicrous or unbalancing for Blasters, the (supposedly) "I'm best at doing damage" AT to be able to handle a similar group through damage?
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Since that would mean average blaster players would be leveling two or three times faster than average anything else, that would be wrong, in the sense that the devs would not allow such a circumstance to occur detectably, period.
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Originally Posted by LordDynamo_NA
This is more of a rhetorical comment, but, frankly, I don't see much wrong with boosting Blasters' damage to the point where they can wipe entire groups of mobs in a couple shots. If Tankers, the "I'm best at taking damage" AT, can wade into large groups of high level mobs and almost ignore their attacks while taking them out, then is it really more ludicrous or unbalancing for Blasters, the (supposedly) "I'm best at doing damage" AT to be able to handle a similar group through damage?
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True enough. If, however, an AT is going to be designed around the concept of doing the most damage, then, by definition, they are going to destroy enemies quicker than other ATs and thus level quicker. The big question is how much faster. In creating an AT that is supposed to do that, the devs put themselves into that situation in the first place, as opposed to having all ATs do roughly the same damage and AT specialization come in different forms of mitigation (defense, resistance, crowd control, etc) and other secondary effects and abilities.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since that would mean average blaster players would be leveling two or three times faster than average anything else, that would be wrong, in the sense that the devs would not allow such a circumstance to occur detectably, period.
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Again. Just musing.
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I share the opinion that increasing the amount of damage Blasters do would be a way to help them. Why not give Blasters the ability to dish out more damage, thus, most of the mob would be dead before they could retaliate?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since that would mean average blaster players would be leveling two or three times faster than average anything else, that would be wrong, in the sense that the devs would not allow such a circumstance to occur detectably, period.
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All of the other ATs tend to get some sort of decent way to mitigate incoming damage because they have access to heals, buffs, and debuffs that allow them to either avoid/reduce the damage or immediately heal after. Blasters don't really get any of that outside of dipping into power pools that are widely available to many others.
We also already have several Blaster primaries with crash-less nukes that are up to be used with every mob. Apparently, for those primaries, it was deemed OK for the Blaster to have access to highly reusable attacks that do close to the same damage as a classic nuke... but Archery, Dual Pistols, and Assault Rifle all get essentially "better" nukes.
Why not give Blasters (and Blasters only) a boost to their other attacks so that each attack makes you feel like you are really bringing to bear all the firepower Blasters are supposed to have? With more firepower, a Blaster would be capable of wiping out the mob before they would do much. A nice couple shots from a Blaster should leverage enough damage to obliterate much of the mob with the few surviving Bosses/LTs able to present enough of a threat.
You should be able to say "I may be squishy but half the room just got crispy."
And, if you gave blasters that kind of damage, you'd also give Tankers more of a need to actually manage aggro. Personally, when I'm on my tank, I'd love having a good blaster who can turn all the mobs into dust. Makes me feel rewarded for making such nice herds!
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
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The term "Glass cannon" as we use it is actually an oxymoron. Glass is a mineral (rock) and tempered glass (like Pryrex) and silicon carbide are very hard. When I was studying engineering we had one of the ceramic engineering professors give a demonstration that included driving a nail all the way into a pair of 2 x 4 boards with an angled section of glass pipe, standing on, and bouncing up and down on his toes, on a piece of plate glass (ordinary window glass) supported between 2 stools, and heating a box made of ceramic tile to almost red hot temperatures without significantly damaging the contents.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I do understand that the offensive side can only be increased so much before it is ludicrous... but I think we should travel toward that edge.
Hopefully that and some minor defensive adjustments can bring about a semblance of them being... maybe not a Glass Cannon, but... since we have a bunch of cannons running around in the form of other ATs... maybe a Fiberglass Cannon. |
Glass only shatters under special circumstances and when it shatters it does so at the speed of sound through that particular glass medium. The problem is that everyone thinks of glass as a fragile substance when the truth is only poorly manufactured (ie: full of microscopic bubbles) or cheap glass with lots of impurities is fragile.
A "real" glass cannon would be a ZOMG rock armor tank mage.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
This is the direction I would like any Blaster modifications to travel. I have spoke out against such things as defensive increases and mez protection because I feel that the Blaster should keep its title of "offensive juggernaut." I totally agree that Blasters need to be able to survive long enough to be the offensive juggernaut, but I think they should to that by doing offensive things better, rather than increasing their defenses.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Just an off the top of my head thought. What about adding resistances to when they're mezzed? Not mezz resistance, but actual damage resistance? Say like 20% per stack of a power? So, lots of mezz happy critters would actually just be making it tougher to kill the blaster and just 1 mezz using boss would find the blaster less squishy?
Not a 'cure all' by any means, but seems like something that could go along with Defiance's 'act while mezzed'. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Then lets remove mez protection from everyone, and let everyone use the solution you suggests to deal with mez, since with this solution mez with never be an issue.
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Earlier today, just to clarify to myself what I was going for, I got on mids and took one of my Blaster builds to task on this issue. I managed to get 39% S/L defense, all other types close to 30 and had mez resistance in the 90s, and I was only about 3/4ths through slotting it and hadn't gotten to Incarnates yet. My attempt on this was to get as much defense as I could manage while still getting respectable mez resistance, and I'd say it worked out fairly well. A few changes toward more defense or more resistance and I think a nice balance could be managed.
I can't imagine that removing inherent mez resistance from all ATs would be as dramatic as you want to believe. If there was no inherent mez protection for any AT, people would adapt to the methods that are available because they wouldn't really have a choice. Take it or die. As it stands now, they have the option to take it but choose not to because they feel it presents them with less optimal builds. They don't want to have to take two pre-requisite powers just to get Acrobatics (even though many of the high defense builds I've seen already take CJ).
For myself, having never really had a problem with my squishies and mez, removing all mez protection wouldn't change how I play at all. I'm a PvPer and have gotten very used to always being held by all mezzs, and have learned how to take advantage of the tools provided to us by the Devs.
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You're completely missing the point. Any AT can hit 50 and fully IO out and incarnate up and avoid a lot of problems like Mez and squishiness. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Earlier today, just to clarify to myself what I was going for, I got on mids and took one of my Blaster builds to task on this issue. I managed to get 39% S/L defense, all other types close to 30 and had mez resistance in the 90s, and I was only about 3/4ths through slotting it and hadn't gotten to Incarnates yet. My attempt on this was to get as much defense as I could manage while still getting respectable mez resistance, and I'd say it worked out fairly well. A few changes toward more defense or more resistance and I think a nice balance could be managed.
I can't imagine that removing inherent mez resistance from all ATs would be as dramatic as you want to believe. If there was no inherent mez protection for any AT, people would adapt to the methods that are available because they wouldn't really have a choice. Take it or die. As it stands now, they have the option to take it but choose not to because they feel it presents them with less optimal builds. They don't want to have to take two pre-requisite powers just to get Acrobatics (even though many of the high defense builds I've seen already take CJ). For myself, having never really had a problem with my squishies and mez, removing all mez protection wouldn't change how I play at all. I'm a PvPer and have gotten very used to always being held by all mezzs, and have learned how to take advantage of the tools provided to us by the Devs. |
That doesn't fix the problem of mez and being squishy on the way to 50. Not every player is going to sit and min/max their build. It doesn't do anything to help the average player running on SOs.
The 'max' bar doesn't have any major problems. Any AT is playable, functional, competitive, fun, etc when you can finally reach that level. But that's the problem with it. It's a destination, it's not solving any of the problems on the journey there.
The problem is the 'min' base. The bar for Blasters is set a fair bit lower than it is for other ATs and people want to raise that up.
Simply giving more mez protection to blasters is not going to solve the problem(s) that Blasters have. And, giving it to them via their Inherent is not going to solve the problem either.
But part of the problem is the knee-jerk reaction to attempts to buff blaster survivability as "obviously broken." Its only as obviously broken as controllers AoE criting everything and tankers with 71% of the blaster mod and a resistance debuff and dominators with very similar damage modifiers and an entire control set. It is within the context of the modern game, where melee archetypes don't even use their ranged modifiers because its too low that we have to examine what is and is not realistic for blasters to have. I don't oppose blasters getting mez protection because its too much. I oppose blasters getting mez protection because its not enough. But it *appears* so powerful it would limit blasters' ability to get what they really need.
Why not is a slippery question.
Insofar as archetypes should be distinct, that's a truism. However, that does not in any way limit the game mechanical features that blasters could receive without being unbalanced. It only serves as guidance when judging which options are more conceptually interesting from a gameplay partitioning perspective.
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