Blasters and mez - Are we going about it wrong?


Abyssus

 

Posted

Not the answer I expected BUT I like your answer! You do acknowledge the AT's weakness and strenghts instead of blindly saying..."blasters are the number 1 for damage and that alone makes for all shortcomings!"

This is a reply to Electric Knight and the others who answered my question... I feel that currently blasters don't have enough edge to make them more desirable than a Corr or a Dom.

Why Play a blaster for just the thrill and the damage when you can get the same results damage wise and thrill wise with a Corruptor, Dominator or SoA?

I love Blasters as well (Especially Rad/Fire Blasters!) but currently I have several Doms who can give them a run for their money damage wise and mitigation wise and don't even get me started on a Crab SoA, Widow SoA or Fire/Time/Soul corr!



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
Another_Fan can you explain to me why I would want to roll a Blaster rather than a Dominator or corruptor?
Oh an to answer my own question...I would say I like the variety of blast sets. Yes a fort is better in every single way but sometimes I want to use different elements besides Psi even though sometimes it doesn't seem worth it lol.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
Not the answer I expected BUT I like your answer! You do acknowledge the AT's weakness and strenghts instead of blindly saying..."blasters are the number 1 for damage and that alone makes for all shortcomings!"



Why Play a blaster for just the thrill and the damage when you can get the same results damage wise and thrill wise with a Corruptor, Dominator or SoA?
This is a dilema.. I have Dominators and Corruptors that I love. My Crab Spider does sick AoE. I have yet to make a Fortuna but looking into it..

However I have to say that I love the "purity" of blaster. Nothing satisfies me as well as a well played blaster. Its the challenge.. Its beating the odds.. Dominator.. I mez.. then I destroy... Corruptor... I debuff then I destroy..

Blaster.. I identify targets.. take them down strategically.. I attack through the tank... I move.. I hover to stay out of melee.. I move to break line of sight..

I guess its because I am doing more.. I enjoy them more..

but the AT needs help badly..


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
This is a dilema.. I have Dominators and Corruptors that I love. My Crab Spider does sick AoE. I have yet to make a Fortuna but looking into it..

However I have to say that I love the "purity" of blaster. Nothing satisfies me as well as a well played blaster. Its the challenge.. Its beating the odds.. Dominator.. I mez.. then I destroy... Corruptor... I debuff then I destroy..

Blaster.. I identify targets.. take them down strategically.. I attack through the tank... I move.. I hover to stay out of melee.. I move to break line of sight..

I guess its because I am doing more.. I enjoy them more..

but the AT needs help badly..
I like blasters but then again that should be no surprise since I love Stalkers... so it makes sense in a weird way.



 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
Blaster.. I identify targets.. take them down strategically.. I attack through the tank... I move.. I hover to stay out of melee.. I move to break line of sight..

I guess its because I am doing more.. I enjoy them more..

but the AT needs help badly..
Blasters face exactly the same opponents that every other AT does, with fewer tools to help themselves. It's the Secondaries that are the weakness.

When your Scrapper friends are getting Shield Charge and One with the Shield, we get melee-range single-target attacks for the most part.


Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide

 

Posted

My question is, why on earth does a ranged damage AT have a boatload of melee attacks in it's secondary? There should be some punishing secondaries with all ranged powers, or perhaps ranged with light buff/debuff...

Wait, but that'd basically be a corruptor then wouldn't it? They get scourge too don't they? Hmm...

These are issues I currently have with the AT:
(1) Crashing T9's are worthless...literally...I can use a pyronic/ionic/void/vorpal judgement and do the same thing better and still spam AoEs after it...and I can do that with a Brute too!

(2) Snipes should do MEGA ST damage...and I mean something on the scale of like 2K damage...for all the fuss you put up with, and having to eek your way through mobs...for my money, if I have to wait 3 secs +/- for a power to load up from range and blast away at a hard target...I need that power to THUMP when it hits home.

(3) Secondaries are lots of melee...I know it's not called a blapper by the Devs, but many call that playstyle by it's more truer name. I roll blasters to BLAST from RANGE...if I wanted to walk up and punch the NPCs in the face, I would use one of my wealth of melee toons to do that and have WAY more fun doing it.

(4) Blasters could stand to be able to take 2 punches instead of one, how about some HP love...I am not asking for a lot...can we get to say...2000 +/- without having to burn the wick on both ends chasing accolades and slotting entirely for +HP bonuses that are not over the rule of 5?

(5) I feel that for the energy and effort put into these toons to be the "glass cannon"...there should never be a time that I get a barrage of crap thrown at me by MINION AND LT CLASS NPCs that HIT HARDER than I do from GREATER RANGE...where's the balance in that?

-my 2 cents.


Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by planet_J View Post
My question is, why on earth does a ranged damage AT have a boatload of melee attacks in it's secondary? There should be some punishing secondaries with all ranged powers, or perhaps ranged with light buff/debuff...

Wait, but that'd basically be a corruptor then wouldn't it? They get scourge too don't they? Hmm...
If I could go back in time and design the blaster archetype before release, I would have had it be ranged primary, control/utility secondary.
Primary would be straight attacks. Any big debuffs or status effects would be a secondary effect of the attacks. None of this 20 second recharging 10 second single target stun that does no damage silliness.
Secondary would be the survivability and panic buttons. Small area controls ideal for negating alphas when solo and on small teams, survivability tools like armors or self heals, and situational offense like power thrust and nukes.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth_Bomber View Post
Blasters face exactly the same opponents that every other AT does, with fewer tools to help themselves. It's the Secondaries that are the weakness.

When your Scrapper friends are getting Shield Charge and One with the Shield, we get melee-range single-target attacks for the most part.
I dont agree that the secondaries are a weakness. I will say that certain secondaries are lacking. Again my first toon ever was a blaster before any incarnation of defiance so I developed a playstyle that works for me very well. I understand that those who play melee AT's like scrappers, brutes etc and then try a blaster its a complete and total shock how many enemies can mez you if given the chance.

And first off every scrapper doesnt have Shield Charge.. and One With the Shield aint that great a power. I skipped it on every shield character I have. I dont really care what the scrapper friend is doing.. hopefully he is taking some aggro off me..I dont have a blaster inferiority complex because I know what I bring to the table and thats because I am playing it not because of the AT itself.


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
I like blasters but then again that should be no surprise since I love Stalkers... so it makes sense in a weird way.
Funny I tried Stalkers and didnt like them at all. I dont like scrappers that much either.


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
Funny I tried Stalkers and didnt like them at all. I dont like scrappers that much either.
You should give them another shot! Did you have the Stalker ATO? I play my Stalker like a melee blaster...and I play my Dominator like a Tanker .



 

Posted

Wow.

Just wow.

I skimmed over this thread a few days ago. I had actually written a good bit about my opinion on the matter of mez protection for blasters. But, I thought better of it, because I ended up in a mini-rant and felt nobody was going to benefit from my words.

Here's my more rational line of thought. I don't think blasters need mez protection any more. Before IOs, yes. After, no. With well thought out slotting, the duration of mez can be seriously reduced to the point that it's merely an annoyance. And really - that's what it is - the longer the duration, the more annoying. Way back in issue 4, it's what got me to roll a tank instead of another blaster.

Yet, the blaster AT has so much potential now with IOs.

Not take the fight pool? If you're going to solo to any large degree, I would question your experience in playing. If you're teaming, fine - take the teleport pool instead. Your teams buffs should cover those gaps, and likely over-shadow what the fight pool would do.

Numbers, numbers, numbers. I'm not that good with them, but with mids', I can certainly compare a higher number to a lower one.

And, I know this is unpopular, but if you are not making the effort to give your characters the best chance you can, then you're basically saying "It's my money, I'll make the toon how I want."

You know, that's fine. Do that. But guess what - you will find yourself on tfs that just can't quite get the job done sometimes. You may not be able to break through the mold wall av in the eden trial, because you wanted tp ally instead of the fight pool - and because you lacked defense - you got defeated. Repeatedly. So, your team stares at the mold wall. Because of you. Well, not just you. Your other teammates should be able to carry your weight. But - no. You're teaming with them because they're your friends and you all think the game should be fun. But, fun is different for many of us.

I might love to blast - but if I'm defeated, I'm not having any fun.

As for me, I come to the forums, I check out various builds and market like crazy so I can afford to make my toons as good as I can make them.

I want defense for my blasters so they'll live to blast. A defeated blaster is useless and not fun to play. Mez? pff. If I don't have a breakfree, I make one, combining insps.

Yeah, you go ahead and forget about defense. Build your toons with some entertaining theme and enjoy yourself. It is your sub after all. I don't pay it. For my money, I'm going to try and play as well as I can. Every time.

Me, I'll be the one who doesn't use an ambrosia against the titan, because I'll be at range, away from the crystal titans damage splash.

And you...

You still won't be past the first wall.

Defeated.

By a minion!

But hey, fun is different for all of us.

These theatrics were brought to you by an amused ice blaster who holds his foes before they mez him.


"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese

@Ukase

 

Posted

I don't think blasters need mez protection any more. Before IOs, yes. After, no.

We do need to remember that the game is balanced around SOs. And, though they may not be very common, there are people who don't feel the need or desire to IO every character.


@ Dr Gemini

Quote:
�If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.�

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
And also remember that some of us do not drop every very often, despite not having any defense.
thank you.. Not everyone plays with IO's. The Mez issue IMO is way overstated.. There are other AT's that exist without it.

Blasters underperforming IMO is not a mez issue.


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
I dont agree that the secondaries are a weakness.
Were you able to keep a straight face when you typed that? =P

Aside from Ice, name one even halfway decent blaster secondary- I'm genuinely curious.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Were you able to keep a straight face when you typed that? =P

Aside from Ice, name one even halfway decent blaster secondary- I'm genuinely curious.
Well obviously your opinion will be different but I have enjoyed Energy, Fire, Electric and Mental Manipulation. I havent played Dark and I foumd Devices lacking. I played Ice a long time ago so I dont remember what it was like.

So again and with a straight face.. the secondaries are not a problem for me.. there are some balance issues between secondaries like Devices having no build up...


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
Well obviously your opinion will be different but I have enjoyed Energy, Fire, Electric and Mental Manipulation. I havent played Dark and I foumd Devices lacking. I played Ice a long time ago so I dont remember what it was like.
People often enjoy things that aren't very good- I think I mentioned my fondness for my cold dom somewhere back up-thread.

Given the context of this thread, I thought you were claiming there wasn't anything wrong with them.

Quote:
So again and with a straight face.. the secondaries are not a problem for me..
Okay, I thought you were making some sort of objective claim that they were actually "good".


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airhammer View Post
Well obviously your opinion will be different but I have enjoyed Energy, Fire, Electric and Mental Manipulation. I havent played Dark and I foumd Devices lacking. I played Ice a long time ago so I dont remember what it was like.

So again and with a straight face.. the secondaries are not a problem for me.. there are some balance issues between secondaries like Devices having no build up...
Yeah, I honestly don't understand how anyone can say that those Secondaries are a problem.
/Devices sure is a different breed... I actually enjoy it a lot, but it is different and definitely could use a few adjustments.

I don't see anything wrong with Electric Manipulation (and see a lot great about it).
People do insane things with Mental Manipulation (the blaster secondary powerset... ) and Energy Manipulation can be used in a few different ways to create very opportunistic builds/characters.

I've yet to play a /Fire Blaster at all though.


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
People often enjoy things that aren't very good- I think I mentioned my fondness for my cold dom somewhere back up-thread.

Given the context of this thread, I thought you were claiming there wasn't anything wrong with them.



Okay, I thought you were making some sort of objective claim that they were actually "good".
How are they not good?
The damage in Electric and Energy Manipulation are great.
/Elec has a mag 3 hold that does a ton of damage.
It also can drain enemies dry of endurance.
The damage aura extends in a large radius and can actually be quite a boost.
Of course, the Tier 1 immob works wonderfully at low levels.
It has knocking mitigation. It also has a bit of random sleep, which can be helpful in tough spots.

Thunderous Blast is a great nuke - Ranged, leaves your enemies bewildered and futile... And, in conjunction with one blue inspiration and Power Sink... crash what crash?

Here's a tip... people often don't enjoy things that are very good.
This just might be the case for you and Blaster secondaries.

What, do they not have enough support/control?
Yeah, and Will Power does not have enough attacks!


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
People often enjoy things that aren't very good- I think I mentioned my fondness for my cold dom somewhere back up-thread.

Given the context of this thread, I thought you were claiming there wasn't anything wrong with them.



Okay, I thought you were making some sort of objective claim that they were actually "good".
you can spin it however you want.. I dont see anything wrong with them. I play them and play them quite well and enjoy them.. now YOUR mileage by vary but that doesnt stop me or numerous other people from enjoying them.

And I have a stellar Ice Dominator By the way..


The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.

If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
How are they not good?
From the "survivability" aspect, which I assumed was the aim of this thread?

Melee attacks, nukes that leave you helpless, damage auras....nothing wrong with them in and of themselves, but they do nothing to upgrade the comparative weakness of a fragile AT with no innate defense against status effects or incoming attacks.

People like what they like, I get it. Every gimp AT over the years has had its devotees who deny anything's wrong with it besides other players who need to LRN 2 PLY or LRN 2 BUILD.

Blasters are in a somewhat different category because they *used* to be much better than they are now, comparatively, so there's still a sizable population around.

But when I scan the crowds in Paragon these days I see plenty of corrupters, plenty of dominators....not that many blasters.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
From the "survivability" aspect, which I assumed was the aim of this thread?
The aim of the thread is not about revamping the Blaster Secondaries.

The current secondaries were not designed to do what you want them to do.
You can cite that as it meaning that they're no good, but it doesn't make you correct and you likely would be best to not tout it as fact.

One of the biggest problems people have with Blaster Secondaries is... they don't use them. Usually because they want to stay at range. And they claim something is wrong with Blasters because either a) they're not benefiting from their secondaries or b) their secondaries force them into range (and they don't seem to be able to handle being in and out of range).

If we listen to players like you, since you like to generalize (and usually in attempts to belittle people's positions), Blasters are nothing but a mess that can only be played by the uber die-hard fanboys who will defend its amazing-ness to no end.

While there is more wrong with your stance than just this, it'll do... It's funny how a bunch of us Blaster-lovers are here on these forums, acknowledging problems and offering constructive ideas and solutions.

Back off the know-it-all-ness, Nether. We're not all Another-Shmuck to be undone by your snark.


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight View Post
The aim of the thread is not about revamping the Blaster Secondaries.

The current secondaries were not designed to do what you want them to do.
You can cite that as it meaning that they're no good, but it doesn't make you correct and you likely would be best to not tout it as fact.
Okay, there's just SOME WEIRD REASON people don't like blasters, and it has nothing to do with their secondaries- got it.

Quote:
One of the biggest problems people have with Blaster Secondaries is... they don't use them. Usually because they want to stay at range. And they claim something is wrong with Blasters because either a) they're not benefiting from their secondaries or b) their secondaries force them into range (and they don't seem to be able to handle being in and out of range).
Hey look a LRN 2 PLAY/LRN 2 BUILD argument!
What a shock!

=P


Obviously the AT is fine, it's the dum PLAYERS who can't PLAY RIGHT who mess it up!

Carry on.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Melee attacks, nukes that leave you helpless, damage auras....nothing wrong with them in and of themselves, but they do nothing to upgrade the comparative weakness of a fragile AT with no innate defense against status effects or incoming attacks.
And this is not true.
They do upgrade and help!!
How does knockback, holds, drains, sleeps, enhanced range, increased secondary effects do nothing to help a fragile AT?
So, what do you want... to make the fragile AT not fragile? I guess that'd "help"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Blasters are in a somewhat different category because they *used* to be much better than they are now, comparatively, so there's still a sizable population around.

But when I scan the crowds in Paragon these days I see plenty of corrupters, plenty of dominators....not that many blasters.
This doesn't add up to meaning that the Blaster Secondaries are the culprit...

In fact, I'd say the Primaries are more to blame, as has been talked about before.

The attack progression of the Blaster Primaries doesn't really build to make a Blaster more damaging as they level. The Tier 1 and 2 powers, while great, pretty much continue to be their bread and butter without adding in some heavy top tier hitters as regular attacks. And/or if you do use higher tier attacks, I don't think it quite adds up (besides the obvious AoE benefit... such as using Ball Of Lightning and Short Circuit).

The Secondaries aren't supposed to be what you want them to be.

However, as you said, Blasters used to be better! And that wasn't because the Secondaries used to be more supportive!
Let's see if the developers can bring Blasters back to a more mainstream AT by helping it do better damage, more consistently.

And... that is what the Secondaries can help with so much. Both by self-buffing and damaging while inflicting some soft control (and sometimes hard control) as well.

Hey... if Blasters ever become easily survivable and hard hitting blasting and punching forces... I very well might love that too... But a simple slip on the scales of balance does not mean that this is what they NEED to become.


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
Okay, there's just SOME WEIRD REASON people don't like blasters, and it has nothing to do with their secondaries- got it.



Hey look a LRN 2 PLAY/LRN 2 BUILD argument!
What a shock!

=P


Obviously the AT is fine, it's the dum PLAYERS who can't PLAY RIGHT who mess it up!

Carry on.
Hyperbolic lack of reason, Nether. I expect better from you.
The only thing I'll add is that the suggestions and observations I mentioned are a far far cry from LRN 2 Play.

Whether you are insane or trolling, I'm not going to concern myself with it.


@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"
-Dylan