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I love Acrobatics. The Hold protection it gives is underrated on the forums. You, however, are making the error in the other direction and overstating the strength of Acro as well as overstating the strength of Mez resists, especially as leveling; while IOs can be used while leveling, it is hard to get meaningful stun resists before the 40s. Only 1 range set has stun resists (Maelstrom's Fury), 2 in PBAoEs, none in TAoEs or melee sets. True, one can also take Aid Self, which will reduce stun length appreciably, but 5 pool powers is also not necessarily coming early in the build. And of course one can take Tough to slot an Aegis and ImpSkin, but the levels of build sacrifice are very, very high. Too high.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
Just look at the build suggestions on these forums. How many of them include Acrobatics? With a quick look I had to go 2 pages deep before I found somebody that took Acro in their initial build, and they were immediately told it was a waste and not to take it. I'm sorry, but the blame for mez issues cannot be laid entirely at the Devs feet. Players have the tools to help, they simply refuse to use them.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The point is that Blasters shouldn't have to cripple their ability for different builds just to make up for one single shortcoming out of many. It's like telling someone who is making 35K a year that they can afford a Lamborghini if they forgo all other luxuries, eat Mac and Cheese every meal, and live in a shack. and thus, affording the car isn't that big a deal. Having to do all these extra things in the first place makes it a big deal. None of the other ATs have to give up so many options in order to achieve that. They have the survivability and mitigation already, as well as close to Blaster (in some cases more with things like Perma-Rage) damage thanks to various increases over time, and they don't have to use up a half dozen power slots and make specific Incarnate builds to do it. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Not at all. I think you are missing the point that all of those options for mez resistance start as early as level 10 for IOs. Acrobatics opens up at level 20 for those that are FTP, which is right about the time that mez really starts to become an issue.
Read my posts. I've never said that the AT is fine. I've never said it doesn't need to be looked at. What I have said is that any existing problems are magnified by the fact that so many are choosing not to take advantage of the options that are available because those options don't fit what most consider to be the optimized builds. Just look at the build suggestions on these forums. How many of them include Acrobatics? With a quick look I had to go 2 pages deep before I found somebody that took Acro in their initial build, and they were immediately told it was a waste and not to take it. I'm sorry, but the blame for mez issues cannot be laid entirely at the Devs feet. Players have the tools to help, they simply refuse to use them. |
What if I suggested that Tanker damage be dropped to .4, since they are supposed to be the damage-takers, not the damage-doers, and then suggested that the players just buy IO sets that give dam bonuses to make up for it? By filling all their slots with Devastation, Obliteration, Red Fortune, et al, they might get close to the level of everyone else. Just at the cost of doing anything other than boosting damage. It's basically the same as the solution you're presenting with Blaster mez. Tie up everything with regards to power customization just to make up for one major weakness.
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Originally Posted by LordDynamo_NA
The point is that Blasters shouldn't have to cripple their ability for different builds just to make up for one single shortcoming out of many. It's like telling someone who is making 35K a year that they can afford a Lamborghini if they forgo all other luxuries, eat Mac and Cheese every meal, and live in a shack. and thus, affording the car isn't that big a deal. Having to do all these extra things in the first place makes it a big deal. None of the other ATs have to give up so many options in order to achieve that. They have the survivability and mitigation already, as well as close to Blaster (in some cases more with things like Perma-Rage) damage thanks to various increases over time, and they don't have to use up a half dozen power slots and make specific Incarnate builds to do it.
What if I suggested that Tanker damage be dropped to .4, since they are supposed to be the damage-takers, not the damage-doers, and then suggested that the players just buy IO sets that give dam bonuses to make up for it? By filling all their slots with Devastation, Obliteration, Red Fortune, et al, they might get close to the level of everyone else. Just at the cost of doing anything other than boosting damage. It's basically the same as the solution you're presenting with Blaster mez. Tie up everything with regards to power customization just to make up for one major weakness. |
In what way is build variety crippled any more than it is now with virtually every build on these forums being essential cookie cutter copies taking the same four pools for maximum defense? The irony is that they are already taking Leaping for CJ, so it's not like it's a big stretch to take two more powers from the set to give a significant improvement in survival. There's no crippling whatsoever. As I stated earlier I managed a build on mids that had both defense and mez resistance in good numbers with no significant sacrifices in performance.
It seems to me that mez, in regards to Blaster performance, has been dramatically overblown on these forums. Yes, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. But it seems to me that if it was really as bad as some would have us believe, than why do people seem to work so hard to avoid taking the very best tools they have to alleviate the problem? That makes no sense. If mez was such a crippling issue, wouldn't people go out of their way to make it less so? What I see is that people recognize that there is a problem with Blasters, but they don't really understand what all that entails. They see that they are getting mezzed more than they think they should, and that is the thing they recognize. That is the thing they can most easily see as being a hinderance to performance, so that is what they grab onto. Then they come here crying WITCH! WITCH! and demand that something be done to fix the problem despite the fact that the devs have already provided powerful tools to fix it. The problems with Blasters go far beyond just mez, but that is the one issue that people are focusing on like a laser beam. Just giving Blasters inherent mez resistance won't fix Blasters underperforming.
My question to you is this: In all your testing, how many Blasters did you use have Acrobatics and even just the simplest IOs that could be slotted to resist the most common mez? I assume you did test more than one variant of build. I know the devs have access to the numbers, but we don't have that information. If we as players are going to test numbers on this, we need to test all the variables. What's your control build? How much of a performance difference is there when comparing builds with high defence vs high mez resistance vs some combination of both vs none of either?
Here's how the overwhelming majority of people play this game:
They make a character that sounds like fun, select powers that sound cool, they never look at the forums, they have no idea what "Mids" is, they slot whatever they can buy at the store & they largely experience the game world firsthand, without engaging forums or wikis or whatever.
The existence of things like pricey IOs and inobvious pool powers that potentially help ameliorate some of the mez problem for blasters isn't relevant to their experience of the game.
As noted, I've deleted more blasters than anything else- it's an AT I *want* to like, but it's an AT that's mostly un-likable unless you put in a lot of work.
I'm here to have fun and don't find playing ATs that *have* to take boring pool powers & *have* to invest in specialist IOs enjoyable in the least.
Saying mez sucks more for blasters than any other AT and that I've subsequently deleted a truckload of them over the years doesn't overstate anything- that's my game experience.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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I agree mez protection would not solve blaster problems and agree with Arcanaville's stance that it might prevent better, more encompassing solutions.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
But it seems to me that if it was really as bad as some would have us believe, than why do people seem to work so hard to avoid taking the very best tools they have to alleviate the problem? That makes no sense. If mez was such a crippling issue, wouldn't people go out of their way to make it less so? What I see is that people recognize that there is a problem with Blasters, but they don't really understand what all that entails.
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But I think the value you place on mez resistance is higher than the actual return. Also, the emphasis on high defense is likely better mitigation vs. mez in general than mez resistance (and to your point, helps cover other blaster weaknesses). Thus it makes much more sense to build for defense than mez resistance.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
My question to you is this: In all your testing, how many Blasters did you use have Acrobatics and even just the simplest IOs that could be slotted to resist the most common mez?
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My primarily range Fire/Fire/Force blaster didn't take Clarion for instance, since mez is not a big problem. My melee Fire/Fire/Flame with both offensive toggles and Acro did take Clarion because mez is frustrating.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I agree mez protection would not solve blaster problems and agree with Arcanaville's stance that it might prevent better, more encompassing solutions.
But I think the value you place on mez resistance is higher than the actual return. |
This may very well be, and that's part of what I'm trying to get across to people. People need to try to see the whole problem and not focus only on what they think they already know.
A lot of people have stated that Acrobatics and/or IOs have had little to no effect on performance. That's most likely anecdotal with no real evidence to back it up, but I won't dismiss the possibility they may be right. What they don't seem to understand is that if people are taking and using the tools already provided but not seeing any significant improvement in performance, it could very well indicate that the problem isn't really mez like they thought. That's the point I'm trying to get across to people.
The devs have access to a much larger pool of data than we have as players. They can, and perhaps have looked at exactly what the performance difference is between those Blasters that take mez resistance and those that don't. If they haven't seen a noticable difference, that might very well be why no change has been made in that direction as yet. There's no point in arguing for more of something we already have, but hasn't helped. That's like demanding they give Blasters a second T1 attack in their primary as a way to improve damage.
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I am going to be clear that I am biased right out of the gate because I have always believed Clarion Core sacrificed way too much just to be perma. Having played with my tier 4 Clarion since within 5 days of its release, my opinion has not changed. I love my mez protection, but I still believe I have given up far too much effectiveness for it. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
A lot of people have stated that Acrobatics and/or IOs have had little to no effect on performance. That's most likely anecdotal with no real evidence to back it up, but I won't dismiss the possibility they may be right. What they don't seem to understand is that if people are taking and using the tools already provided but not seeing any significant improvement in performance, it could very well indicate that the problem isn't really mez like they thought. That's the point I'm trying to get across to people.
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In my experience, on a blaster that is not built for high defense, but instead modest resists and high regen, the tier 4 Clarion is useful, but not a game changer. On my blasters built for high defense, I don't need Clarion and can instead take a better Destiny.
On my Rad defender and controller, I also have the perma-versions (tier 3), but I think I am going to go Radial if I ever tier 4 them. My kin defender and /EA brute did that and I find it is actually far nicer.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Alright, you're making some big mistakes by making pretty wide generalizations.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
In what way is build variety crippled any more than it is now with virtually every build on these forums being essential cookie cutter copies taking the same four pools for maximum defense?
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First of all, you're lumping the entire forum community into one pool, and then you're using this generalization to speak for the balance of an AT for the rest of the entire playerbase.
A lot of us do not even come remotely close to copying any of these cookie cutter builds posted on the forums.
And again, many people play the game without IO set bonus for optimal performance.
People play this game by taking powers that seem fun and/or fit the overall concept of the super-powered character they wish to create.
This game is not balanced around IOs. IOs add to the extremes and variances we can go to, but they are not the basis for AT balancing.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
The irony is that they are already taking Leaping for CJ, so it's not like it's a big stretch to take two more powers from the set to give a significant improvement in survival. There's no crippling whatsoever. As I stated earlier I managed a build on mids that had both defense and mez resistance in good numbers with no significant sacrifices in performance.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
It seems to me that mez, in regards to Blaster performance, has been dramatically overblown on these forums. Yes, it is a problem that needs to be addressed. But it seems to me that if it was really as bad as some would have us believe, than why do people seem to work so hard to avoid taking the very best tools they have to alleviate the problem? That makes no sense. If mez was such a crippling issue, wouldn't people go out of their way to make it less so? What I see is that people recognize that there is a problem with Blasters, but they don't really understand what all that entails. They see that they are getting mezzed more than they think they should, and that is the thing they recognize. That is the thing they can most easily see as being a hinderance to performance, so that is what they grab onto. Then they come here crying WITCH! WITCH! and demand that something be done to fix the problem despite the fact that the devs have already provided powerful tools to fix it. The problems with Blasters go far beyond just mez, but that is the one issue that people are focusing on like a laser beam. Just giving Blasters inherent mez resistance won't fix Blasters underperforming.
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There is a wide variety of opinions on these issues.
And many of us in partial agreement also have extremely different preferences, opinions and experiences with Blasters.
For example, while I agree with Nethergoat on some things... I do not feel as though I have to work in order to enjoy my Blasters (and my Blasters are my favorite characters! My main character is an E3 Blaster that I play most of the time I am logged on... he has NO IOs and NO pool powers for defense... go figure!).
The "problem" I see with Blasters is simple.
They are supposed to be Superb Offense and No Defense.
All the other ATs (we're talking BARE-BONE ATs here. Strictly the AT's powers only) were brought closer to the Superb Offense while the Blasters remained with No Defense.
It's been surmised that a Blaster's damage can't really be beefed up enough to compensate for having NO Defense, compared to all the other ATs' damage levels while having much more solid defenses and abilities for mitigation... Because the damage levels required for that balance would make encounters too trivial (sure, they'd have no defense... but if they one shot entire Boss spawns... it might not be enough of a weakness!).
There is a disparity...
And, no... I do not believe that Mez is the real issue. I think being able to withstand or avoid more of a beating is in order in some way (if ofensive damage, alone, is not an option).
Arcanaville's suggesting of quick bursts of mini-mez on our target is an interesting one to give some more survivability in the form of offense.
Regardless, anything done to Blasters right now, needs to include some offensive damage improvements (as small or large as they can be right now).
Anything else should come in small increments to reach the final balancing on the scale, in my opinion.
Bringing in Pool Powers and IO bonuses isn't anything unique for Blasters... and they shouldn't be used for balancing Blasters with other bare-bone ATs' performances.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I haven't seen that, but whatever.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
A lot of people have stated that Acrobatics and/or IOs have had little to no effect on performance.
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Their impact is irrelevant because the "average" player isn't going to take them and in the case of IOs may not even know they exist.
Besides which ATs should be balanced without recourse to exterior systems.
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| what they don't seem to understand is that if people are taking and using the tools already provided but not seeing any significant improvement in performance, it could very well indicate that the problem isn't really mez like they thought. That's the point I'm trying to get across to people. |
The question is how can that be addressed.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Bringing in Pool Powers and IO bonuses isn't anything unique for Blasters... and they shouldn't be used for balancing Blasters with other bare-bone ATs' performances. |
I agree completely that they shouldn't be used for balancing the baseline performance. However, in this particular case, using them does give us an idea of what to expect from the possible changes many people are asking for. As I said, if people are using those tools available and not seeing a significant improvement in performance, that could indicate mez is not the issue and that giving Blasters inherent mez protection/resistance won't solve the problems they are having. However, we can't determine that if people aren't actually using those tools because of a preconceived bias against them. Because people aren't using them, all we are seeing reported is the worst case scenario.
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Right. I think it would go a long way to improving things if:|
Originally Posted by Agent White
The concept is glass cannon. Pretty sure we're not exactly sticking strictly to concept in any of these discussions.
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- They increase the levels of powers you can use while mez'd above the first couple.
- Make secondaries more useful. Instead of a damage aura that stays on the Blaster, make it castable instead. I'd use the same animation and effect like Radiation Infection, but make it a toggle AoE damage instead, centered on the target like RI is.
- Player-centered toggles like Chilling Embrace should just suppress when mez'd instead of turning off. Forcing the player to restart them adds an extra penalty to being mez'd.
- One idea that comes and goes is adding a resistance to whatever damage you deal, i.e. a Fire blaster has some minor resistance to fire damage, and is passive.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
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Oh, I understand where you're coming from now. Thanks! My apologies for not fully grasping why you were speaking from that angle.|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
I agree completely that they shouldn't be used for balancing the baseline performance. However, in this particular case, using them does give us an idea of what to expect from the possible changes many people are asking for. As I said, if people are using those tools available and not seeing a significant improvement in performance, that could indicate mez is not the issue and that giving Blasters inherent mez protection/resistance won't solve the problems they are having. However, we can't determine that if people aren't actually using those tools because of a preconceived bias against them. Because people aren't using them, all we are seeing reported is the worst case scenario.
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Yeah, I've never tried using those things to counteract mez... Now you've got me thinking about trying it, just to see (as it's never really been a complaint of mine... other than against Master Illusionists maybe, hehe).
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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To be completely honest, it really doesn't seem to be balanced around much of anything.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
This game is not balanced around IOs. IOs add to the extremes and variances we can go to, but they are not the basis for AT balancing. |
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The "problem" I see with Blasters is simple. They are supposed to be Superb Offense and No Defense. All the other ATs (we're talking BARE-BONE ATs here. Strictly the AT's powers only) were brought closer to the Superb Offense while the Blasters remained with No Defense. It's been surmised that a Blaster's damage can't really be beefed up enough to compensate for having NO Defense, compared to all the other ATs' damage levels while having much more solid defenses and abilities for mitigation... Because the damage levels required for that balance would make encounters too trivial (sure, they'd have no defense... but if they one shot entire Boss spawns... it might not be enough of a weakness!).
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The whole you can't ramp up blasters damage is a canard. Its a meme being promulgated by people that either have an agenda or just haven't thought things through. Its pretty clever to the idea in circulation.
It goes like this.
1. To be balanced off damage alone blasters would need an absurd amount of damage (insert absurd amount here).
2. This amount of damage would destroy the game
3. So "We cant give them anymore damage"
The problem is of course in going from giving blasters absurd damage, and giving them more.
At the very least the blaster ranged modifier could be increased by 10%-15% and the melee modifier brought up to match. This seems fair since the melee toons don't actually have to use their ranged modifier they just get their melee modifier for ranged attacks.
If you then say that's not enough, well then you can give them some extra survivability to go with it.
At that point you aren't doing silly things to fix the AT, like "Every Blaster a sniper" or changing what people initially enjoy about the AT, or at least what I enjoyed about it, "The sheer joy of being nothing but damage"
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Great point!
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Here's how the overwhelming majority of people play this game:
They make a character that sounds like fun, select powers that sound cool, they never look at the forums, they have no idea what "Mids" is, they slot whatever they can buy at the store & they largely experience the game world firsthand, without engaging forums or wikis or whatever. The existence of things like pricey IOs and inobvious pool powers that potentially help ameliorate some of the mez problem for blasters isn't relevant to their experience of the game. As noted, I've deleted more blasters than anything else- it's an AT I *want* to like, but it's an AT that's mostly un-likable unless you put in a lot of work. I'm here to have fun and don't find playing ATs that *have* to take boring pool powers & *have* to invest in specialist IOs enjoyable in the least. Saying mez sucks more for blasters than any other AT and that I've subsequently deleted a truckload of them over the years doesn't overstate anything- that's my game experience. |
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If you look at my other replies about this, that is pretty much what I'm suggesting as well.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
To be completely honest, it really doesn't seem to be balanced around much of anything.
If anything blasters had their offense lowered with defiance 2.0. People that could play on that life and death edge were well rewarded with defiance 1.0 The whole you can't ramp up blasters damage is a canard. Its a meme being promulgated by people that either have an agenda or just haven't thought things through. Its pretty clever to the idea in circulation. It goes like this. 1. To be balanced off damage alone blasters would need an absurd amount of damage (insert absurd amount here). 2. This amount of damage would destroy the game 3. So "We cant give them anymore damage" The problem is of course in going from giving blasters absurd damage, and giving them more. At the very least the blaster ranged modifier could be increased by 10%-15% and the melee modifier brought up to match. This seems fair since the melee toons don't actually have to use their ranged modifier they just get their melee modifier for ranged attacks. If you then say that's not enough, well then you can give them some extra survivability to go with it. At that point you aren't doing silly things to fix the AT, like "Every Blaster a sniper" or changing what people initially enjoy about the AT, or at least what I enjoyed about it, "The sheer joy of being nothing but damage" |
I'm hoping they might be able to get more damage for Blasters by adjusting the higher tiered attacks a little bit, but I agree about increasing the damage modifier.
The only thing I said in my previous post was that covering the entire gap of the offense/defense balance is not possible through damage only.
The average damage among ATs is too high to allow something enough damage to balance out ZERO defense.
And I'm pretty sue that is all that Arcanaville has said on the matter as well. I think everyone agrees more damage is best... but it'll probably take a bit more to really bring them up to snuff.
Again, I feel weird talking about blasters this way, because I do play and enjoy and succeed with them as is.
However, I can't argue that there is a drastic difference in the ease in which I succeed, compared to other ATs.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
I feel that my Blasters dont suffer from mez any more than my Defenders, Corruptors, Masterminds or Controllers, If blasters get more mez protection then why not all the other AT's who are susceptible to mez protection. And unlike my Blasters who can get off a few attacks when mezzed none of these other AT's can. So I think it would be unfair to add even more mez protection to blasters.
Once again.. Blasters were crippled more by ED in my opinion than almost any other AT.
Pre ED my character Airhammer was the boss killer. Regularly on teams I would get this from the team leader..
Ldr: Yo Air.
Air: What
Ldr: Boss
Air: Check...
I was the go to guy for ANY serious foe. any Bosses..LT's annoying foes like Malta Sappers
Build Up Aim Snipe would take a foes down enough that two or three good shots would finish an even con boss..
Now post ED I need an average of 6-7 shots to take down the same foe..
Nukes use to be slotted with mostly damage and would decimate a group.. Now many times at least one or two foes survive who then precede to try beat down my Defenseless No end Having self..
Judgement powers at the end game which recharge faster and can do massive damage to an even larger number of foes make Blaster Nukes especially those that end crash seem pointless at best and obsolete at worst. Now my Tank with a Judgement power can wipe out whole mobs easily.
There are several things I think that need to be done..
1) Originally it was range that was supposed to be a blasters defense.. FINE I have no issue with that.. and I dont think thats a bad thing.. Then I believe several things need to happen
a) Normalize Blaster Tier 3 attacks so that they work from the same range as tier 1 and 2. Increase the end cost or increase the recharge a little if need be..
b) Give Blaster some inherent ranged defense. The blaster being a skilled ranged fighter should get a bonus for defense @ range.
c) Give those powersets that utilize PbAoE nukes a defense buff so they dont get pummeled to death trying to get the shot off
2) Fix Snipes. The end cost and animation time is hardly worth the damage anymore. The damage should be increased dramatically.. a SNIPE is designed to TAKE OUT a target.. not alert the target to your presence and make them angry at you.
3) Increase the blaster ranged damage modifier.
This to me would be a good start...
4) Remove the killer end crash from ALL nukes...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I am focusing on what I know. I know that my blasters spend 2-3 times longer mezzed than any of my other squishies and 10 times longer than my scrappers and tanks. Since blasters are combat ATs (ie: damage dealers) I would "expect" those numbers to be 1/2 as long as my other squishies and 2-3 times as long as Tanks/scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Antigonus
This may very well be, and that's part of what I'm trying to get across to people. People need to try to see the whole problem and not focus only on what they think they already know.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
A lot of people have stated that Acrobatics and/or IOs have had little to no effect on performance. That's most likely anecdotal with no real evidence to back it up, but I won't dismiss the possibility they may be right. What they don't seem to understand is that if people are taking and using the tools already provided but not seeing any significant improvement in performance, it could very well indicate that the problem isn't really mez like they thought. That's the point I'm trying to get across to people.
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I've never seen anyone tell any AT but the blaster AT that they should be relying on pool powers.
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
The devs have access to a much larger pool of data than we have as players. They can, and perhaps have looked at exactly what the performance difference is between those Blasters that take mez resistance and those that don't. If they haven't seen a noticable difference, that might very well be why no change has been made in that direction as yet. There's no point in arguing for more of something we already have, but hasn't helped. That's like demanding they give Blasters a second T1 attack in their primary as a way to improve damage.
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I can also answer your question about what is more effective.
I have an Energy/Energy/Force build for +rech and KB (this blaster has perma hasten)
I have a Rad/Fire/Mace built for soft capped S/L defense, high melee defense and middle values of energy and ranged defense plus Clarion so that my defenses don't suppress and Hot Feet doesn't detoggle.
I have an AR/Nrg/Cold Blaster that is built for +rech and +range
I have a Sonic/Ice/Elec built for soft capped to ranged.
I have a Arch/Nrg/Munitions built +range and ranged defense.
The one that is the most effective is the Rad/Fire and that is mainly because of the mitigation provided by IO defense set bonuses.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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To be completely fair, the fighting pool is practically a requirement for the melee ATs. That is only one pool though. Blasters get told they must have 3 or 4.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I've never seen anyone tell any AT but the blaster AT that they should be relying on pool powers. |
Edit: And it used to be everyone had to take fitness.
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A requirement for soft capping. Not everyone goes out of their way to max out their resists/defenses. Not everybody -needs- to, you're just -more- effective if you do. |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
To be completely fair, the fighting pool is practically a requirement for the melee ATs. That is only one pool though. Blasters get told they must have 3 or 4.
Edit: And it used to be everyone had to take fitness. |
Blasters get told to take pool powers to -be- effective.
My WP, Elec Armor, Energy Aura Brute gets along just fine without the fighting pool.
Lets see let me run down my list of Blasters that do not dip into the fighting pool for survivability and hence are NOT built for defense AT ALL
Airhammer-Nrg/Nrg
Taser-Elec/Elec
Salvo-Ar/Nrg
FyrePsyde-Fire/MM
SureShot-Arch/Devices
Taiyoken-Rad/MM
I have deleted one blaster.. an Ice/Ice because in all honesty I felt it was too powerful.
The only Blaster I have that has defense built in and it was my first experience in making a defense build is a Rad/Fire.
I have played Airhammer and Taser since two months after launch.. and I still dont think giving Blaster mez protection is the answer to the blaster problem and in all honesty IMO the devs arent going to give it to blasters because it would set a bad precedence.
Corruptors will say.. well we are the ranged damage AT for redside.. why dont we have it..
Then Defenders will say.. well we are reverse Corruptors.. why dont we have it..
I mean why even have Mez in the game at all..
Carry break free and get them before they get you..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I'll admit that mez isn't the only problem that a blaster faces.... But it is the one weakness that eliminates ALL the blaster's strengths. Being virtually mez proof would fix that issue for Freems and Preems and it would let those of us that are ViPs take something other than Clarion instead of running into late game high mez situations that cause you to run out of break frees before you finish your mission.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Lets see let me run down my list of Blasters that do not dip into the fighting pool for survivability and hence are NOT built for defense AT ALL
Airhammer-Nrg/Nrg Taser-Elec/Elec Salvo-Ar/Nrg FyrePsyde-Fire/MM SureShot-Arch/Devices Taiyoken-Rad/MM I have deleted one blaster.. an Ice/Ice because in all honesty I felt it was too powerful. The only Blaster I have that has defense built in and it was my first experience in making a defense build is a Rad/Fire. I have played Airhammer and Taser since two months after launch.. and I still dont think giving Blaster mez protection is the answer to the blaster problem and in all honesty IMO the devs arent going to give it to blasters because it would set a bad precedence. Corruptors will say.. well we are the ranged damage AT for redside.. why dont we have it.. Then Defenders will say.. well we are reverse Corruptors.. why dont we have it.. I mean why even have Mez in the game at all.. Carry break free and get them before they get you.. |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I'd say you're right. Every AT should have some sort of direct answer to mez. It's not fair that certain ATs completely circumvent that aspect of the game. It'd be different if it was *only* Tankers that basically ignored mez (then that'd be their schtick) but the way mezzes are (binary 'on' and 'off') is the problem in and of itself. Unless measures are made so that you can't simply ignore them, giving a pass for some and not everyone to go about ignoring them does more harm than good.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I have played Airhammer and Taser since two months after launch.. and I still dont think giving Blaster mez protection is the answer to the blaster problem and in all honesty IMO the devs arent going to give it to blasters because it would set a bad precedence.
Corruptors will say.. well we are the ranged damage AT for redside.. why dont we have it.. Then Defenders will say.. well we are reverse Corruptors.. why dont we have it.. I mean why even have Mez in the game at all.. Carry break free and get them before they get you.. |
Since we don't have to worry about PvP, in PvE something should and can be done about it. Either fix mezzes or give options that work for the majority of the game.
Acrobatics is nice and mez resist IOs help (my DP/Fire/Ice actually built with moderate +res to mez along with the two uniques and it helps but perhaps it's also the +def build into the build) but it's hardly comprehensive coverage.
They don't even need full or all-the-time coverage, just something they can use that helps a lot some of the time (coupled with break frees, and you have all-the-time protection) or something that helps a bit but works all the time...if Acrobatics had minor protection to stuns too + decently high resistance to all forms of mez, at least it would be worth more than the two ****s it's worth now.
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If being Mez proof is the answer, why do I not see more blasters taking Clarion as soon as they can get it? Why do we not see more blasters factoring Acrobatics into their builds for protection against Holds prior to 50?|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'll admit that mez isn't the only problem that a blaster faces.... But it is the one weakness that eliminates ALL the blaster's strengths. Being virtually mez proof would fix that issue for Freems and Preems and it would let those of us that are ViPs take something other than Clarion instead of running into late game high mez situations that cause you to run out of break frees before you finish your mission.
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And, really, the mobs that truly mez are not that frequent. And only a couple groups in the game are really all that mez happy... and those mobs all tend to appear 40+ where you should be capable of handling them.
Let's also establish that not everyone tries to solo on +0/x8 or really any difficulty higher than the basic settings. Therefore, they are not running into many mobs that will toss out mezzes at all.
Mezzing is a problem you run into against a handful of specific situations. And, most of those situations happen on large teams who should be able to manage it.
The real problems are that Blasters aren't doing enough damage and their secondary powers need attention.
@ Dr Gemini
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| �If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.� |
That doesn't fix the problem of mez and being squishy on the way to 50. Not every player is going to sit and min/max their build. It doesn't do anything to help the average player running on SOs.
The 'max' bar doesn't have any major problems. Any AT is playable, functional, competitive, fun, etc when you can finally reach that level. But that's the problem with it. It's a destination, it's not solving any of the problems on the journey there.
The problem is the 'min' base. The bar for Blasters is set a fair bit lower than it is for other ATs and people want to raise that up.
Not at all. I think you are missing the point that all of those options for mez resistance start as early as level 10 for IOs. Acrobatics opens up at level 20 for those that are FTP, which is right about the time that mez really starts to become an issue.
Read my posts. I've never said that the AT is fine. I've never said it doesn't need to be looked at. What I have said is that any existing problems are magnified by the fact that so many are choosing not to take advantage of the options that are available because those options don't fit what most consider to be the optimized builds. Just look at the build suggestions on these forums. How many of them include Acrobatics? With a quick look I had to go 2 pages deep before I found somebody that took Acro in their initial build, and they were immediately told it was a waste and not to take it. I'm sorry, but the blame for mez issues cannot be laid entirely at the Devs feet. Players have the tools to help, they simply refuse to use them.