While I see what you're saying, one fight against the patrons doesn't really equate spending a whole arc learning the tricks of the trade...perhaps an arc/group of arcs devoted to investigating a particular patron?
Or heroes could get their own patrons...
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Honestly, it depends. You have stories of heroes that gain the powers of their enemies either through powers of their own (mimicry is a big one), or being exposed to the effects of being attacked with certain elements or picking up equipment that may be beneficial to them after modifications.
Like always, I'm /unsigned on this. Want access to the patron pools, go redside and get access to them.
More themetic choices for Ancillary Pools is a better idea.
But Patron Pools should remain just how they are. And really, they're not limited at all, since anyone can obtain them just by doing tip missions changing alignment and doing the complete circle.
Hero wouldn't go villain? Then don't say they did. Oh? Want them for theme/concept? Well the theme of the Patron Pools is one getting training/jgiven power from the high ups in Arachnos!
But just want the better looking Soul Mastery for Dark user? Want that Mu Mastery for the lightning character? Want that Gloom for Brute/Tanker? Want that S/L Shield that doesn't hide your costume? Then go redside get it and go back to blue.
It's really not that hard.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I would like to see this as well, but the instant the "Side change token" showed up in the market, I knew it would never happen.
Hi, person with the initial idea!
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That'd be fine, but if that's the case, running a short arc to get access to something... Ya know, I did that for my Alpha slot, but you can just use merits to do that now. Don't see why that's such a big deal.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Want access to the patron pools, go redside and get access to them.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
More themetic choices for Ancillary Pools is a better idea.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
But Patron Pools should remain just how they are. And really, they're not limited at all, since anyone can obtain them just by doing tip missions changing alignment and doing the complete circle.
Hero wouldn't go villain? Then don't say they did. Oh? Want them for theme/concept? Well the theme of the Patron Pools is one getting training/given power from the high ups in Arachnos! |
Many players already use powersets for different intents than they are. Fire doesn't need to be fire. Dark Miasma doesnt need to be Dark Miasma. I dont see why that matters.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
But just want the better looking Soul Mastery for Dark user? Want that Mu Mastery for the lightning character? Want that Gloom for Brute/Tanker? Want that S/L Shield that doesn't hide your costume? Then go redside get it and go back to blue.
It's really not that hard. |
It seems like very little work on the dev's parts to equalize power pool opportunity.
Plus, you're already saying that someone with Natural origin can use Mu Lightning because they talked to Black Scorpion? The 'storyline' reasons are kinda sketchy here.
The idea of going redside for things was killed for me when they made the regular archetypes non-partisan, first in i17 for Praetoria and especially after i21's new tutorial.
My personal issue with going redside is that it doesn't really appeal to my own moral compass, nevermind those of my characters. Yeah, you're mechanically attacking and being attacked by things that don't agree with you, but there's a psychological difference between doing it for great justice and doing it so the world bows down to me.
Or, in short, I bought CoH to be a hero.
I think the existing Patron Power Pools are just fine the way they are, and should remain redside only as a villain incentive.
BUT, I also think that we need heroic Patron Power Pools for the blueside and Praetorian Patron Power Pools goldside.
The thread linked in Kirtsen's post is a great one!
It's not that it's 'that hard' as a hero to go redside, its that it's an eight day round trip if you want to get one without spending points to buy tokens. Meanwhile the villains get Ancillary power pools right off the bat, nothing extra needing doing. Its a bit of an imbalance. Okay its a BIG imbalance. There either needs to be a heroic patron power pool, or heroes need another way to access patron powers, without having to spend over a week on it as a project.
Mind, not that I think you shouldn't have to work for it, but there is no redside equivilant. There is no reason that large for redside to go blueside, then go back to redside.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
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Issue is, despite this distinct mechanical advantage to being redside, blueside is still vastly more popular. Combined with Paragon turning this into a revenue stream with side-changing tokens, there is essentially a zero percent chance of them simply making patron powers available without a switch.|
Originally Posted by Paladiamors
It's not that it's 'that hard' as a hero to go redside, its that it's an eight day round trip if you want to get one without spending points to buy tokens. Meanwhile the villains get Ancillary power pools right off the bat, nothing extra needing doing. Its a bit of an imbalance. Okay its a BIG imbalance. There either needs to be a heroic patron power pool, or heroes need another way to access patron powers, without having to spend over a week on it as a project.
Mind, not that I think you shouldn't have to work for it, but there is no redside equivilant. There is no reason that large for redside to go blueside, then go back to redside. |
Heroic patron powers that would give villains a reason to switch...maybe, a nonzero chance of that. But I would purchase a hat solely for culinary purposes if Corruptors/Defenders/Blasters heroside somehow acquire an epic power pool that provides defense - Paragon has provided an answer to this problem, and it costs 1600 points round trip.
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No, blue side has equal access, since they can go redside. Everyone has the same options, and all can get there. And what are you losing out on exactly? Nothing. Do missions, get xp.|
Originally Posted by Kistulot
Hi, person with the initial idea!
That'd be fine, but if that's the case, running a short arc to get access to something... Ya know, I did that for my Alpha slot, but you can just use merits to do that now. Don't see why that's such a big deal. I don't recomend holding your breath on a new ancillary power pool! So in the meantime, this is what we have to work with! What this comes down to, is that being blueside currently gives all ATs a lower amount of powerchoices than red. If you've done tips before, that means you're sacrificing alignment merits for something a redsider gets for free without any extra effort. Many players already use powersets for different intents than they are. Fire doesn't need to be fire. Dark Miasma doesnt need to be Dark Miasma. I dont see why that matters. No, but redside gets this benefit with no cost. The arcs are fun, and you do what, three mishes to get those? Blueside would need to do 25 by that count. It seems like very little work on the dev's parts to equalize power pool opportunity. Plus, you're already saying that someone with Natural origin can use Mu Lightning because they talked to Black Scorpion? The 'storyline' reasons are kinda sketchy here. |
Redside doesn't have to do tips. True! Since when did running tips ever become hard?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Then why do you want to be patroned to a villain?
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Originally Posted by QuarriosSoul
The idea of going redside for things was killed for me when they made the regular archetypes non-partisan, first in i17 for Praetoria and especially after i21's new tutorial.
My personal issue with going redside is that it doesn't really appeal to my own moral compass, nevermind those of my characters. Yeah, you're mechanically attacking and being attacked by things that don't agree with you, but there's a psychological difference between doing it for great justice and doing it so the world bows down to me. Or, in short, I bought CoH to be a hero. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Ummm...Blaster get Frozen Armor, so only Corrs/Defenders lack this option you seek.|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
Issue is, despite this distinct mechanical advantage to being redside, blueside is still vastly more popular. Combined with Paragon turning this into a revenue stream with side-changing tokens, there is essentially a zero percent chance of them simply making patron powers available without a switch.
Heroic patron powers that would give villains a reason to switch...maybe, a nonzero chance of that. But I would purchase a hat solely for culinary purposes if Corruptors/Defenders/Blasters heroside somehow acquire an epic power pool that provides defense - Paragon has provided an answer to this problem, and it costs 1600 points round trip. |
And that reasoning isn't worried about concept or theme (I want Defense Shield!) so just go redside and get it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Time, effort, and homogeneity of alignment.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And what are you losing out on exactly?
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Either make villains have to go blueside for APPs or give the Patron powers to heroes without all the hullabaloo, I say. I'll even take the compromise of paying a small point price to universally unlock them, a la capes and auras.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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No time is lost, you're gaining xp the whole time. Effort is the same as any other mission. Homogeneity of alignment again falls back into "If you're a hero why are you taking powers from villains?"|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Time, effort, and homogeneity of alignment.
Either make villains have to go blueside for APPs or give the Patron powers to heroes without all the hullabaloo, I say. I'll even take the compromise of paying a small point price to universally unlock them, a la capes and auras. |
The problem I see with this suggestion is it always basically comes around to "I want a different +Defense shield (one that doesn't cover my costume), I want Shadowmeld, or I want Gloom."
And if blueside patron powers did come about, why would they look like the patron powers? If the patron powers universally sucked (you know, like Weapon Mastery is regarded as), people wouldn't be asking to have Patron Powers made easier to get, cuz they wouldn't care to go after them in the first place.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Any other mission isn't the same as the alignment changing missions. Time and effort wasted on an endeavor you wouldn't otherwise be doing is still time and effort wasted regardless of whether XP was gained.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
No time is lost, you're gaining xp the whole time. Effort is the same as any other mission.
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| Homogeneity of alignment again falls back into "If you're a hero why are you taking powers from villains?" |
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| The problem I see with this suggestion is it always basically comes around to "I want a different +Defense shield (one that doesn't cover my costume), I want Shadowmeld, or I want Gloom." |
Personally, I'm usually looking for the ability to summon sharks or water tornadoes. Oh, Concept, you hilarious red-headed stepchild!
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
How about an oddball 3rd option:
Instead of worrying with the Patron pools and APPs, what if we got to create our own custom APP from a large selection of powers - these would naturally be visually customizable since the animations would just be lifted from existing powers for the most part.
The way it works is, you look at what's available from the current APPs/PPPs, and from there it's determined what kinds of powers are available to your specific AT.
So for instance, Scrapper can have anything from this list provided they meet the quantity-of-previous-powers requirement. Obviously you can only have up to 5 powers in your custom APP, and they unlock at 35
Scrapper Table:
Conserve Power with no Custom APP powers
Focused Accuracy or Targeting Drone with no Costum APP powers
A single target Immobilize with no custom APP powers
A Minor ranged damage attack with no Custom APP powers
A Moderate Ranged attack with no Custom APP power
A Minor damage cone AoE with no Custom APP powers
An AOE debuff with 1 Custom APP power
Physical Perfection with 1 Custom APP power
A Single Target Hold 1 Custom APP powers
A Moderate (or less) damage cone AoE with 1 Custom APP powers
A Moderate (or less) Damage ranged AoE with 2 Custom APP powers
A Moderate (or less) damage cone AoE with 2 Custom APP powers (May have Immobilize secondary effect)
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That's just an example based on the current Scrapper APPs mind you, but you see the basic pattern - you can pick and choose different powers from different sets* with some level of relative freedom. This allows you to pick the powers that your character would logically have, or fit your build better (whichever is your concern) and since we'd be using identical animations to existent - in most cases customizable - powers, we'd be able to recolor many of them.
Not to mention it'd be fun to have a scrapper with a bow for a secondary weapon, like I always wanted.
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I realize that maybe is a bit of a big idea >< but hey, I can dream right?
*With numbers tuned to your AT, like all APPs; including longer cooldowns, shorter uptimes or whatever else needs to be done to make it not-broken.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=273827
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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If you have to spend several days to get there (hero to villain,) run the arc, and do several days to get back, it is not "equal access." |
Originally Posted by BrandX
No, blue side has equal access, since they can go redside.
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Personal preference - heroic versions and associated arcs.
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Don't like eating cake? That's OK, eat it anyway and pretend it's very sweet bread. Yeah, that doesn't work. Not for people who actually care about what it is that their characters are engaged in doing.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Hero wouldn't go villain? Then don't say they did.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well the theme of the Patron Pools is one getting training/jgiven power from the high ups in Arachnos!
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Really, when a person asks for an alternate means of obtaining something, telling that person to just go do the current means of obtaining it is the Internet equivalent of dead air. It's saying nothing and accomplishing nothing because it's sidestepping the point. The point here is finding a way to give heroes access to Patron pool powers without turning into villains. Saying that this can be done while turning into villains is simply dead air.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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This. A hundred, thousand times this.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If you have to spend several days to get there (hero to villain,) run the arc, and do several days to get back, it is not "equal access."
Personal preference - heroic versions and associated arcs. |
The only thing I want more than this, I think, is customization for Pool/APP/PPP powers.
I loathe having to go redside on my corrs/defenders just to get a frickin defense shield. I always thought the patron pools were a stupid idea being tied behind missions and hero ones were just there for you...and now there for everyone regardless of alignment.
I truly wish the powers listed in Kirsten's thread were made available...I think it is time for more APPs for everyone. A friend of mine said "Yeah but redside is so dead..." meaning this (the patrons) brings more people redside...to which I replied:
I go...I do what I need to do...I leave.
I do not spend any significant time redside when I go for my PPP....I just do what I need to do to get back to being a hero 
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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The reasoning why is along the same lines of, let's say, running the Death from Below, or the Terra Volta trial, or completing the Mortimer Kal TF or completing all the Dark Astoria content, or heck, getting Enhancement drops from Hamidon.
You're getting new powers from being exposed to the content or having some sort of higher up granting you their powers for a brief time.
The difference is that (A) the effect of unlocking power pools is permanent and (B) theoretically getting it as an STF reward might require you to respec in order for you to put it properly in your build.
"A villain zapped me with this strange thing and now my powers are changing" is a trope. It's not patronizing the archfiend to give you an hour and a half of his time for pointers to improve how you shoot lightning.
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The story behind the patron pools is still being granted abilities through the patrons! Doesn't matter if shooting red lightning isn't villain specific.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Don't like eating cake? That's OK, eat it anyway and pretend it's very sweet bread. Yeah, that doesn't work. Not for people who actually care about what it is that their characters are engaged in doing.
No, it's not. There's nothing Arachnos-specific about getting a red ball lightning like what I'd get if I tinted my Electric Blast red. And even if you could make that argument, it's a mistake to tie powers this closely to specific in-game storylines for non-Epic ATs. --- Really, when a person asks for an alternate means of obtaining something, telling that person to just go do the current means of obtaining it is the Internet equivalent of dead air. It's saying nothing and accomplishing nothing because it's sidestepping the point. The point here is finding a way to give heroes access to Patron pool powers without turning into villains. Saying that this can be done while turning into villains is simply dead air. |
So going with the keep to the theme of hero route, you're still getting PATRON Powers. If you can go with the idea of "it's not being granted Mu Powers by Sciricco" then there's no reason one can't go with the idea of "not really turning villain".
Look at the name again...PATRON. You're taking on a villain patron to gain access to those powers (in game story wise anyways, obviously people come up with other explanations to the patron power pools).
And I was just saying /unsigned and giving a reason. My reason isn't any less valid than any other.
Especially when this suggestion pops up more so people can get the yummy min/max power their wanting more than anything else, and that's almost usually why this suggestion gets brought up, as saying I want Soul Mastery for concept, when all Soul Mastery is, is Dark Mastery.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Notice how it keeps coming back to that bolded statement?|
Originally Posted by I Burnt The Toast
I loathe having to go redside on my corrs/defenders just to get a frickin defense shield. I always thought the patron pools were a stupid idea being tied behind missions and hero ones were just there for you...and now there for everyone regardless of alignment.
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It's a suggetion being asked for, so people can min/max their options without having to take some time to do some tip missions.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
An SG friend of mine asked me to post this suggestion for her, but it's one I can agree with.
All archetypes have access to Ancilliary power pools at 35 now, no matter what side they are on, and yet the ability to unlock the Patron pools is still mostly a villain thing, whether you start out there or want to switch over temporarily to get the powers for your hero.
I've never run the Statesman Task Force yet, but since you end up having to fight all the patrons and Lord Recluse during the course of the TF, wouldn't it make sense to maybe let bluesiders get access to Patron abilities by completing it?
It still means that we have to work for it, much like the various Patron arcs we already have redside (which you only need to run one of to get access to all of them), but it also means that a player can choose whether or not to "go dark" in order to get them, just in case if it matters to the concept player that their hero stays as one.