damming with faint praise
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-05-08 09:20 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'd rather they update it to reflect the changes in story. Make an Echo of the old one and make all the old content available through Oroborous (which it already is). I really enjoy the new "Echo" tech for this reason.|
Originally Posted by Black Zot
Deleting the entire zone, retconning it out of continuity, and putting something entirely different there is the best solution.
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Then make it a maybe 20-30/30-40 zone, covered in Lava in the middle (a-la the SSA's) Take out the Outcasts short of the random gangs in Steel (Frostfire's trying to be a hero now, anyway). The Trolls retreated to Skyway, The Circle and Tsoo have their own problems to deal with in Dark Astoria.
Now the Minions of Igneous, Coralax (advancing their story) and... the Devouring Earth (trying to 'heal' the damage by destroying everything in sight and taking over) are the main movers and shakers in the zone. Maybe that's why the Coralax started popping up. They knew there was a mystical breach and were there examining it... Meanwhile Longbow and the Legacy Chain are just trying to keep everything contained.
Mayby they could even have Frostfire as an ally or contact in the zones activities, trying to clean up the mess that was his old neighborhood.
One of your missions (off the top of my head) is to prevent the lava from reaching and polluting the Red River, and of course just as importantly, the dam.
That might be cool.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I kinda like this idea.
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I'd rather they update it to reflect the changes in story. Make an Echo of the old one and make all the old content available through Oroborous (which it already is). I really enjoy the new "Echo" tech for this reason.
Then make it a maybe 20-30/30-40 zone, covered in Lava in the middle (a-la the SSA's) Take out the Outcasts short of the random gangs in Steel (Frostfire's trying to be a hero now, anyway). The Trolls retreated to Skyway, The Circle and Tsoo have their own problems to deal with in Dark Astoria. Now the Minions of Igneous, Coralax (advancing their story) and... the Devouring Earth (trying to 'heal' the damage by destroying everything in sight and taking over) are the main movers and shakers in the zone. Maybe that's why the Coralax started popping up. They knew there was a mystical breach and were there examining it... Meanwhile Longbow and the Legacy Chain are just trying to keep everything contained. Mayby they could even have Frostfire as an ally or contact in the zones activities, trying to clean up the mess that was his old neighborhood. One of your missions (off the top of my head) is to prevent the lava from reaching and polluting the Red River, and of course just as importantly, the dam. That might be cool. |
Something witty and profound
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A nice cup of tea.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I deleted all of my characters and started a new one. I had done a bunch of teaming, then done a bunch of AE arcs (you can see the ones I liked in my list of arcs by level http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=287853). So I decided to do some solo play of old content. Did Habashy to level 5 then hit the Hollows.
I decided to call for others when I got to FF. Did a few missions. Another player started a team so I joined that - and had to quit right before they did FF. I did FF myself the next day. Joined another Hollows team for 1 mission (then it disbanded). And finished the missions this morning with Atta. Awhile back I had posted about Hollows having a story and some hater had posted that the Hollows was terrible and had no story. Well it turns out they weren't a hater, they were right. Hollows has silly street hunts (you hunt 10 trolls at least 3 times). Kill alls. Really long grinding missions. Very little story, very few details. The new content is so much better. I am sad that I skipped the other Atlas content to do the Hollows. I look forward to going back to Steel and doing the new arcs there. Then Talos and the newish content there. My nostalgia for old content is slain at this point. There is a reason to hide it and focus on the new. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Frostfire is never an AV. He's an EB, and I've soloed him on every AT at this point. A tray full of inspirations, even the small tray you have at that level, has been fine for me. I've died doing it, but I've always taken him out.|
Originally Posted by Black Zot
I stopped having anything to do with the Hollows when I ran into Frostfire. Seriously Paragon? An AV with double control powersets in a level range where only a fraction of characters have any sort of mez protection and NOBODY is geared to stand up to the power of an AV yet?
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He does suck, but not nearly as badly as your description here makes out.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just to add some more nitpicking of the thread title to the pile, the opening post is not remotely "damning with faint praise". That means to offer praise that's extremely minor to such an extent that it's apparent you're actually condemning it. Your OP in the thread does not do this - it plainly and directly condemns the story telling in the Hollows. There's no praise involved, faint or otherwise.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Um, that's how they do things in Arth.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Just to add some more nitpicking of the thread title to the pile, the opening post is not remotely "damning with faint praise". That means to offer praise that's extremely minor to such an extent that it's apparent you're actually condemning it. Your OP in the thread does not do this - it plainly and directly condemns the story telling in the Hollows. There's no praise involved, faint or otherwise.
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Apparently words and phrases are used to mean different things there than they are here.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I googled 'Arth'. He's from Switzerland? He hardly seems very neutral.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Um, that's how they do things in Arth.
Apparently words and phrases are used to mean different things there than they are here. |
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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This is strange.
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I deleted all of my characters and started a new one.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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This is Dug from The Arth
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
This is strange.
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OH I get it now!
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
This is Dug from The Arth
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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I am too big a person to mention the ambiguity of the final "it" in your sentence "That means to offer praise that's extremely minor to such an extent that it's apparent you're actually condemning it." I will, however, provide this link explaining the pitfalls of implied antecedents for pronouns (http://www.penandpage.com/EngMenu/gramref.htm).|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Just to add some more nitpicking of the thread title to the pile, the opening post is not remotely "damning with faint praise". That means to offer praise that's extremely minor to such an extent that it's apparent you're actually condemning it. Your OP in the thread does not do this - it plainly and directly condemns the story telling in the Hollows. There's no praise involved, faint or otherwise.
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The real problem with your post is "There's no praise involved, faint or otherwise."
To quote from the OP "The new content is so much better."
That statement is unquestionably praise, faint or otherwise. One could argue that it is not faint praise given the use of the emphasis word "so". I, however, having just plainly and directly condemned the storytelling (note that this is one word, not two) in the Hollows, regard saying something is better, even "much better", or "so much better" to be faint praise in deed.
I look forward to examining the grammar in your apology.
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Same here. My favorite content is all the middle-y stuff. Early stuff where you run all across the world doing hunt and FedEx missions sucks, and newer stuff where you spend half the time talking or in cutscenes also has issues. But the stuff in between, like the Faultline revamp and RWZ? Perfect.
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
I ran The Hollows on a lowbie recently for the first time in forever, and honestly I found it more interesting/fun than the new Atlas content. Yeah, there's not much to it in the way of story, and the kill-alls got a little old, but at least I actually got to play the damn game instead of just talking to NPCs and sitting around like a moron in cutscenes all day.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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Would you perhaps mind just not posting so much?
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I am too big a person to mention the ambiguity of the final "it" in your sentence "That means to offer praise that's extremely minor to such an extent that it's apparent you're actually condemning it." I will, however, provide this link explaining the pitfalls of implied antecedents for pronouns (http://www.penandpage.com/EngMenu/gramref.htm).
The real problem with your post is "There's no praise involved, faint or otherwise." To quote from the OP "The new content is so much better." That statement is unquestionably praise, faint or otherwise. One could argue that it is not faint praise given the use of the emphasis word "so". I, however, having just plainly and directly condemned the storytelling (note that this is one word, not two) in the Hollows, regard saying something is better, even "much better", or "so much better" to be faint praise in deed. I look forward to examining the grammar in your apology. |
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You posted 11 times yesterday, I posted 3.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
Would you perhaps mind just not posting so much?
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Would you perhaps mind just not posting so much?
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Grammar is "the set of structural rules that govern the composition of clauses, phrases, and words in any given natural language." I was not commenting on your grammar, because I did not take issue with how you composed your sentences. I was commenting on your misuse of an idiom, which is a larger construct relating concepts used in your post. And you did misuse the idiom, unless you are claiming you were saying something for which you provided no context. I'll get back to that.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I look forward to examining the grammar in your apology.
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As you highlight, you said "the new content is so much better." That statement is not praising the content in the Hollows. So if you are "damning" the content in the Hollows, which certainly seems to be the thesis of your post, then you are praising the wrong thing altogether in order to be "damning (the Hollows) with faint praise." You do not "damn with faint praise" article A by praising article B. To use that idiom requires that you issue (very weak) praise directly on article A.
If you are claiming instead that you are issuing "faint praise" on the new content, then you offer no support for that claim in the OP, because you charge the Hollows content with poor quality, and go on to say you wish you had played the new content in Atlas, Steel Canyon, and Talos.
Do please come again.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I deleted all of my characters and started a new one.
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I never get why people do this, except maybe to delete a never-used lowbie to make room. What does it prove? I honestly am agog whenever someone says this. To me, it's like spending a couple of years sketching, then tossing your portfolio on a fire because you feel like doing watercolors.
@Quantum Evil Rad/Rad Corruptor
Making the world safe for maleficent particles since 2004.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
That statement are not praising the content in the Hollows.
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Oh, he's going to getcha for that one.
@Quantum Evil Rad/Rad Corruptor
Making the world safe for maleficent particles since 2004.
So he is. That's what happens when you post while working, though.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Whereas I see this as spending time playing a game for fun. And then starting over again to have more fun.|
Originally Posted by Quantum Evil
I never get why people do this, except maybe to delete a never-used lowbie to make room. What does it prove? I honestly am agog whenever someone says this. To me, it's like spending a couple of years sketching, then tossing your portfolio on a fire because you feel like doing watercolors.
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I see the fun of playing as the goal, characters are simply a tool to do so. Characters have no value. I can delete a character and recreate it with the same name and costume if I like. Getting to any level is no challenge, there is no accomplishment in it.
One day I will stop playing and all of my characters will be gone. And, I have to say, so will you.
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I am confused how you can read a post where I quote where I praised the new content and said that was faint praise, and then reply with a comment which completely ignores that.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
If you are claiming instead that you are issuing "faint praise" on the new content, then you offer no support for that claim in the OP, because you charge the Hollows content with poor quality, and go on to say you wish you had played the new content in Atlas, Steel Canyon, and Talos.
Do please come again. |
Unless, of course, you are merely having fun.
I'm not just trying to have fun, but I do find this amusing.
What you did, was not faint praise of the Hollows.
You praised the other content, full stop. There was no praise of the Hollows at all. You cannot "damn with faint praise" something you do not praise.
That's not how you do it. Really.
And again, if you're saying now that you were trying to "damn with faint praise" the content in Atlas, Steel and Talos by saying it's better than the Hollows, your OP was completely unclear on that. Nothing in it anywhere suggested that you were doing that. If you really want, I can give you a breakdown of why no one sensible would conclude that was the goal of your OP, and thus why they would have inferred that any "damning" was meant to be aimed at the Hollows. Which it was... just not via faint praise.
I personally find it far more likely that you just don't want to admit you used that idiom wrongly/strangely than that you're actually confused by this, though. But I'm cynical like that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I think he should have added a comma after the word 'damming' in his title, so it read 'damming, with faint praise'. Then it would make more sense, perhaps? As in it would mean 'here's a post which contains two things - some condemnation of something, AND some faint praise of something else' |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not just trying to have fun, but I do find this amusing.
What you did, was not faint praise of the Hollows. You praised the other content, full stop. There was no praise of the Hollows at all. You cannot "damn with faint praise" something you do not praise. That's not how you do it. Really. And again, if you're saying now that you were trying to "damn with faint praise" the content in Atlas, Steel and Talos by saying it's better than the Hollows, your OP was completely unclear on that. Nothing in it anywhere suggested that you were doing that. If you really want, I can give you a breakdown of why no one sensible would conclude that was the goal of your OP, and thus why they would have inferred that any "damning" was meant to be aimed at the Hollows. Which it was... just not via faint praise. I personally find it far more likely that you just don't want to admit you used that idiom wrongly/strangely than that you're actually confused by this, though. But I'm cynical like that. |
It seems a bit of a stretch though, to do that, just to get to use the 'dam' pun.
Eco
EDIT: I also love The Hollows, and I think Frosty is pitched just right in terms of challenge.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I did this recently for no reason other than I had become bored of the characters I had in my roster. It's just a video game, you know... you can always do it again. I can't rationalize letting unused, undesired characters take up space where a new, fun ones could go.
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Originally Posted by Quantum Evil
I never get why people do this, except maybe to delete a never-used lowbie to make room. What does it prove? I honestly am agog whenever someone says this. To me, it's like spending a couple of years sketching, then tossing your portfolio on a fire because you feel like doing watercolors.
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Wild Streak - Lv. 50(+3) Beast Mastery/Sonic Resonance Mastermind, Amnesty - Lv. 50 Staff Fighting/Dark Armor Stalker
Side note: What's the lowest level you can run into Dr. V as an AV?
I agree with you about Frostfire. He was designed with teams in mind, though with the change to have an AV become EB when solo/below 4 players (I think it's 4). I've soloed him with Blasters and Defenders. Just be sure to have a couple break frees if you're squishy then he's tough but far from impossible. Not everything has to be (nor should be) a cake walk.
Plus his hideout is just fun to play in. Whenever I run it and have some SG mates with me, we inevitably spend a few moments playing around in the 'skateboard ramp' room. Heck, sometimes folks in PuG's I've done it with have fun with it too. Of course I play around in it when solo, too.
Could it be snazzed up with current story tech? Possibly. However the story's not so hard to follow (assuming you find and read all the dialogue and clues) especially as it finishes up and leads into the Cavern of Transcendence trial. The only problem I could see is folks (especially teamed) outlevel the zone and lose the last few contacts before they finish the arc up and actually start getting answers about the whole story without realizing it.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.