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Aside from the base defense items horribly destroying the villains that wandered into the hero base?|
Originally Posted by Mito_
So making the flip flop to redside and back recently made me think, why are bases alignment specific? Comics have team-ups all the time with heroes and villains (and rogues and vigilantes) and nowhere is that cross faction teaming more prevalent then this very game!! So why limit one base to heroes and another base to villains?
With the new hacked teleporters, there is now ample room for a base to provide access to both red and blue side. If a character is of the wrong alignment to access a zone then those teleporters should just not allow them access. This would in my opinion be a huge QL improvement, having access to the base that I helped build no matter what side I was currently running would greatly improve the utility of bases. If a particular SG wants to be a villain-only group......let them only invite villains and only put up villain teleporters. So.....what do you think? |
Serious answer: I can only see this working if an already-existing member has moved to the opposite alignment, so they could use most of the amenities. But otherwise, I still don't think it makes much sense.
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With base raids on hold indefinitely, base defense turrets and the such are little more then decorative items at the moment (except for one very awesome bug a while ago, hehe!). And when base raids were in affect, those turrets would attack anyone, hero or villain, who were raiding the base, so even if that is an issue I can't see a work around being too big a deal.|
Originally Posted by Kazz
Aside from the base defense items horribly destroying the villains that wandered into the hero base?
Serious answer: I can only see this working if an already-existing member has moved to the opposite alignment, so they could use most of the amenities. But otherwise, I still don't think it makes much sense. |
And the whole point is that existing members who change morality should be able to use all of the bases amenities. If the SG has the resources to drop all the red and blue zone teleporters into their base, then why not?
/unsigned for reasons so obvious they don't have to be explained.
I'm sorry, I haven't been playing as much recently as I have in the past. The obvious might not be obvious to me as it is to others......what are the obvious reasons? Just seemed like the natural progression from freedom to change morality.
I will be happy when (If) we can set beacons for all the areas we can get the badges for. Rogues for example, can collect all of the blueside beacon badges for their bases, but they cannot place them yet. Then base alignment will be less of an issue.
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"Because I said so."
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Originally Posted by Mito_
The obvious might not be obvious to me as it is to others......what are the obvious reasons?
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I admire the OP's ability to think outside the box, but in this instance, my personal input is /unsigned.
Rogues and Vigilantes are the only ones who will profit by this. There is already a mechanism in place, albeit located in places inefficiently accessible, through the Submarine contacts.
I consider a player character's choice to do an alignment change a 'personal' choice (badging or otherwise), and not something that should be tasked upon a true (i.e., non-solo) SG (emphasis on the G for 'group') core membership's prestige and resources to facilitate.
Personally, I wrote up a long list of reasonings why I don't think this is a good idea, but of course, my arguments are related to how it would affect MY SGs (heroic or villainous), rather than out of concern for your simple question of 'why not?'.
I don't like the general principle of allowing villains/rogues into my hero/vigilante bases. Why don't we just invite Al-Qaeda to come visit our US/Allied Military bases and give them access to our motor pool to take them wherever they want to go? Oh and here, Mr. Al-Qaeda, here's access to our salvage crafting table where you can make some grenades and weapons and enhancements from a recipe, all the easier to blow up and kill my fellow allies...bet that would go over well, hmmm?
I also worry that doing this could set in a motion an alignment change in your SG that a majority of SG mates/founding members don't want or never intended to allow for the theme/direction of their SG.
I may be looking at this in a different way than the OP, but after 20 years in the military, this reeks of a simple lack of worldly common sense to me.
Granted this is simply a game, but just because the mechanics are available to do this in this game, doesn't necessarily mean they should be applied.
To me, this is a big /UNSIGNED.
Edit: as an additonal note, I'm sure it would grind a few SG member's gears if when they port into their base to spend some time crafting, etc, that the first sight they see upon porting into the base is a band of villains standing around using the SG base's resources freely, unopposed. Enemy collaboration, anyone?
Can Rogues/Vigilantes even get access to Hero/Villain bases? I haven't tried recently, and it is rather annoying from a purely RP stand-point. For example, you can't have the Heroes drag a Rogue into base for questioning and a possible tenuous alliance, or a Vigilante door-busting into a Villain base for a show-down before a begrudging deal to join forces against a common foe (before the inevitable backstab)
I agree that for travel and suchnot we already have a ton of options. But having access would be nice, if it's possible.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Because:|
Originally Posted by Mito_
I'm sorry, I haven't been playing as much recently as I have in the past. The obvious might not be obvious to me as it is to others......what are the obvious reasons? Just seemed like the natural progression from freedom to change morality.
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Dr. Doom isn't invited to just wander around in the Baxter building whenever he feels like it.
The Joker doesn't get to store his stuff in the Batcave.
And hundreds of other examples of why villains shouldn't be allowed in hero bases (and vice-versa)
It's one thing to have the freedom to change morality, it's another thing entirely if you then go and make that morality not even matter.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Exactly. The game is called City of Heroes where morality is a fundamental part of the game. You are either Good, Evil, or in the process of falling/being redeemed.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Because:
Dr. Doom isn't invited to just wander around in the Baxter building whenever he feels like it. The Joker doesn't get to store his stuff in the Batcave. And hundreds of other examples of why villains shouldn't be allowed in hero bases (and vice-versa) It's one thing to have the freedom to change morality, it's another thing entirely if you then go and make that morality not even matter. |
This is an MMORPG, and like it or not we have to play the role of either a Hero, Villain, Rogue/Vigilante, Praetorian and there are consequences to choosing a faction.
It is not City of Meta-Humans where morality (Good vs Evil) doesn't have an impact on the game.
Instead what the OP should be lobbying for is personal lairs which would belong to the character and not an SG/VG which is restricted to a particular faction.
Claws, Forbin, kindly direct your attention to my previous post. There are perfectly valid reasons for Rogues and Vigilantes to have access to the other sides bases.
Note, access only. Yes, I agree with their not being a need for use of teleporters or storage. But access itself would make a number of the RPers on Union rather happy, myself included.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It's also a perfectly valid argument that SG's/VG's that have members in the process of switching sides should incur penalties like prestige loss and other things because the actions of said "Renegade" members are ruining the reputation of heroic/villainous groups. Because any Heroic or Villainous group that allows it's renagade members to use it's facilities while performing feats that are contrary to the faction it is aligned with is condoning those actions.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Claws, Forbin, kindly direct your attention to my previous post. There are perfectly valid reasons for Rogues and Vigilantes to have access to the other sides bases.
Note, access only. Yes, I agree with their not being a need for use of teleporters or storage. But access itself would make a number of the RPers on Union rather happy, myself included. |
And as much as some people don't like it, the devs have made it abundantly clear that SG's are multi-player content regardless of the fact that many of us jump thru hoops to use SG's/bases as personal solo content.
Now having personal/secret lairs would avoid that argument entirely because they wouldn't rely on prestige/public opinion.
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By that reckoning, that means it would be more correct for the base's "faction" to be whatever is the faction of the majority of that base's group members.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
It's also a perfectly valid argument that SG's/VG's that have members in the process of switching sides should incur penalties like prestige loss and other things because the actions of said "Renegade" members are ruining the reputation of heroic/villainous groups. Because any Heroic or Villainous group that allows it's renagade members to use it's facilities while performing feats that are contrary to the faction it is aligned with is condoning those actions.
And as much as some people don't like it, the devs have made it abundantly clear that SG's are multi-player content regardless of the fact that many of us jump thru hoops to use SG's/bases as personal solo content. |
That means if more than half of them go from hero, to vigilante, to villain, their base should become a villain base.
Wow, guess I'm one bad RPer then:
That's the same two alts from the opposing view to each other standing in the base of the villain alt in question back when the old VG<>HG coalition returned briefly during the early days of alignment switching (the technique has since been fixed and is no longer possible).
And it's not like we don't have examples of heroic organisations turning evil, heroes pretending to be bad guys so they can infiltrate the big bad's base or enemies turning good and bringing all their resources with them or spying for one side while working for the other and even the morally dubious who play both sides, whichever's paying the most at the time.
And we also have Vanguard and the Midnighters in City lore who recruit from both sides (Midnighters having a Legacy Chain member no more than 20 feet from a Mu Mystic) so removing that barrier would allow US to make that choice rather than be segwayed into the old hero and villain segregation simply because it's a relic of the old, non-alignment switching system.
If anything it would make more sense to allow this since several groups that play both sides end up making twice the amount of bases, one red and one blue, doubling the resources they consume from wherever bases are stored. I know my grandfathered coalitions also help me to go from the Isles to Paragon and vice-versa especially when I acidentally use Ouro as it's 'the fastest way to Peregrine' only to forget I'm on a Rogue alt and have to otherwise trudge back via Sharkhead->Pocket D->Talos Island->Peregrine.
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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...and whoever else in the SG that doesn't 'fall in line' with your SG/base alignment change by the majority has 'what' happen to them? They become refugees of their own SG? |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
By that reckoning, that means it would be more correct for the base's "faction" to be whatever is the faction of the majority of that base's group members.
That means if more than half of them go from hero, to vigilante, to villain, their base should become a villain base. |
Just saying...prepare to loose whatever members in your SG that don't 'fall in line' should this base option be activated...*
* - obviously inapplicable to solo SGs or SGs where 100% of member choose to change alignment.
I'll sign this. Vanguard allows both Heros and Villains to join, players should be given the same freedom, they should be allowed to form groups that span the full spectrum of alingments this game locks you into. I don't see why the FBSA (or whatever the name of the bureaucratic office is) that tells me I must get a license in order to be a hero, deciding who I can and can't join a group with.
The FBSA's authority doesn't apply in Pocket D, DA, Cimerora or Praetoria. I don't understand why the FBSA can dictate who can be in my base and who can join my group.
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Exactly.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Can Rogues/Vigilantes even get access to Hero/Villain bases? I haven't tried recently, and it is rather annoying from a purely RP stand-point. For example, you can't have the Heroes drag a Rogue into base for questioning and a possible tenuous alliance, or a Vigilante door-busting into a Villain base for a show-down before a begrudging deal to join forces against a common foe (before the inevitable backstab)
I agree that for travel and suchnot we already have a ton of options. But having access would be nice, if it's possible. |
Dr. Doom may not be invited as a guest, but he can figure out a way in and make his uninvited appearance there and/or he can be brought back there as a captive.
If we're going to include role-play (which I think is a great thing!), that includes the role-play reasons some of us would love to see this option in place.
I understand the thoughts against such a change. However, if your SG turns against your will, then perhaps it is not your SG. Either make sure the SG is what you want it to be or accept what it is.
Honestly, all I would like is the ability to share access. That'd open up some fantastic possibilities.
The way this could be done to satisfy both sides is to require a special invite for such cross-faction visitations.
The permissions can be customized for who can invite cross faction.
Lastly, I would just simply like for Rogues and Vigilantes to be able to cross (I mean, I'd love to be able to have pure heroes and villains gain access as well, but I could understand only the grey alignments being able to).
EDIT:
And, yes, Vanguard and the growing number of co-op scenarios are an in-game/in-universe prime example for why being able to have cross-faction access is "obvious".
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Please explain how Vanguard works?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
It's also a perfectly valid argument that SG's/VG's that have members in the process of switching sides should incur penalties like prestige loss and other things because the actions of said "Renegade" members are ruining the reputation of heroic/villainous groups. Because any Heroic or Villainous group that allows it's renagade members to use it's facilities while performing feats that are contrary to the faction it is aligned with is condoning those actions.
And as much as some people don't like it, the devs have made it abundantly clear that SG's are multi-player content regardless of the fact that many of us jump thru hoops to use SG's/bases as personal solo content. Now having personal/secret lairs would avoid that argument entirely because they wouldn't rely on prestige/public opinion. |
Villains, Rogues, Heroes and Vigilantes.. using the same hospital, same base, same Teleporters, same crafting tables.
I think an option for the SG leader to either allow access, stop access, or even give full access would be nice.
Sometimes, people go undercover.
Would be funny if an undercover cop can't enter the police station, access his locker or talk to the captain to inform him of certain events.
PS: Batman, Catwoman... Vigilante and Rogue.. but she can enter the Batcave.
Dark Energon, Founder of the Freedom Legion SG on Guardian server.
(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
Crab Spider Nephila on Titan Tracker
Weekly events on Guardian: W.A.V.E. & FNFN
Well, I'm glad this post generated some discussion.
The crux of my argument is this; If this is a game that gives us, as the players, an oppertunity to role play the lives of fictional superheroes, why would they not allow us to mimic the scenarios that exist in the comics? The Thunderbolts on the Marvel side, and the Secret Six on the DC side both show us examples of villains trying (or pretending to try) to do right. They are sanctioned by the heroes, or at least the powers that be in said hero universe, to help fight evil with the possibility of redeaming themselves. Sounds an aweful lot like our own morality system right? In fact, the game even allows us, in the Paragon Universes' most urgent times of need, to team frequently with those of opposite alignment.
If a hero or villain wants to design a SG around something more than just Blue/Red, why limit them?
I understand the RP point of view, in fact, I embrace it!!! I feel that there are artificial restrictions imposed on Super Groups that limit the flexability of role playing. Can I make a SG that is really heroic, but under a false pretense sends agents in to scout villain activity? I mean do you really think S.H.I.E.L.D just monitors what is going on in the happy, god-fearing, tax paying areas of the world?
If the fear of villains in your base touching all your stuff is really a big problem for anyone, just realize that it was your SG leader that invited them to join the group and granted them permission to use your crafting tables and storage (besides, how would you know they are villains?), and that is how he/she decided that this particular SG was to be run.
On a strictly non-RPing note, if my SG manages to earn beacons to both Villain and Hero sides, there was at least one somebody who invested the time to collect, craft and place those items in the base. Why is it so horrible to let them use it? Why is it so horrible to have a villain and a hero stashing salvage in the same bin?
Anyway, it was just a passing idea, and I'm glad poeple were talking about it. =)
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Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a system that worked like that. Convincing the devs to do it tho seems unlikely.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
By that reckoning, that means it would be more correct for the base's "faction" to be whatever is the faction of the majority of that base's group members.
That means if more than half of them go from hero, to vigilante, to villain, their base should become a villain base. |
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Originally Posted by Major Deej
...and whoever else in the SG that doesn't 'fall in line' with your SG/base alignment change by the majority has 'what' happen to them? They become refugees of their own SG?
Just saying...prepare to loose whatever members in your SG that don't 'fall in line' should this base option be activated...* * - obviously inapplicable to solo SGs or SGs where 100% of member choose to change alignment. |
A system could be designed that automatically formed their own SG so those characters could still group together.
I think that the players that would support the OP's idea are ones most likely running solo SG's where they don't have a conflict of interest, which is why I said earlier the idea would best work with personal lairs.
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Vanguard is an NPC organisation that doesn't use the games SG/Base features. The devs are allowed to break their own rules. Much like they do with NPC power sets.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
I'll sign this. Vanguard allows both Heros and Villains to join, players should be given the same freedom, they should be allowed to form groups that span the full spectrum of alingments this game locks you into. I don't see why the FBSA (or whatever the name of the bureaucratic office is) that tells me I must get a license in order to be a hero, deciding who I can and can't join a group with.
The FBSA's authority doesn't apply in Pocket D, DA, Cimerora or Praetoria. I don't understand why the FBSA can dictate who can be in my base and who can join my group. |
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Vanguard|
Originally Posted by Dark Energon
Please explain how Vanguard works?
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There you go. You can read up on Vanguard at you leisure.
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I created my own SG, but still have a lot of other players joined.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I think that the players that would support the OP's idea are ones most likely running solo SG's where they don't have a conflict of interest, which is why I said earlier the idea would best work with personal lairs.
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I am the leader, and i understand that people wanna go red side for badges or content for a bit, and i will not kick them out.
I do also understand that the Devs might want to limit certain aspects, like earning prestige. But to just deny access to a base, even when I as SG leader have an alt going red side for badges, or do not mind when someone else does the same is imo, limiting the imagination of the player base.
Hence i suggested making it an option for the SG leader:
-Allow/deny access to Base
-Allow/deny access to storage
-Allow/Deny access to base/storage per rank
These systems are in place in an SG already, would be simple coding to be able to set these per alignment too.
If you are in, or have an SG where you do not trust your SG members, that is YOUR issue. I know almost all my SG members, and i trust them. Ranks work this way.. the more i trust you, the higher in rank you will rise, meaning the more storage is opened for you.
Dark Energon, Founder of the Freedom Legion SG on Guardian server.
(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
Crab Spider Nephila on Titan Tracker
Weekly events on Guardian: W.A.V.E. & FNFN
So making the flip flop to redside and back recently made me think, why are bases alignment specific? Comics have team-ups all the time with heroes and villains (and rogues and vigilantes) and nowhere is that cross faction teaming more prevalent then this very game!! So why limit one base to heroes and another base to villains?
With the new hacked teleporters, there is now ample room for a base to provide access to both red and blue side. If a character is of the wrong alignment to access a zone then those teleporters should just not allow them access. This would in my opinion be a huge QL improvement, having access to the base that I helped build no matter what side I was currently running would greatly improve the utility of bases.
If a particular SG wants to be a villain-only group......let them only invite villains and only put up villain teleporters.
So.....what do you think?