Which power sets need the most help?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-04-24 21:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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However, if you'll notice, the common theme is using Cold's own immobilizes on Ice Slick, which is just the sign of a player not paying attention (or a bad player - not the same thing, no, but I was in a SG with someone - who fortunately left - who absolutely REFUSED to not spam his AOE Immobs on ice slick, no matter how many people tried to explain to him this was a bad thing to do. Was *very* happy when he left - he'd also immob enemies as they were being toggle pulled, ending up with a strung out line of enemies instead of one nice clump on Tar Patch.)
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
If it's the same player doing it, sure. Most of the time it's over players spamming -KB powers, making Ice Slick useless. Earthquake at least debuffs defence and to hit even if they're not flopping around.
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I knew someone like that. I had a big argument with them about Ice Slick and Frostbite. They were insisting, even after showing them, that Frostbite doesn't stop Ice Slick from working. Such people shouldn't use Controllers or Dominators if they won't pay attention to how their powers interact with their own AND other people's powers.
I personally don't even bother taking Frostbite on my Ice Control characters. I'd rather not take a power that's so detrimental to survival.
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I would explain to you all the things that are wrong with this post, but Snowzone and Bill seem to have managed just fine.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
Yes, but plant is stupidly overpowered. It is better than all of the others. So being worse than plant means nothing.
Ice could use help. It needs to have its immobilizes not break ice slick. Other than that it is great. |
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Originally Posted by Snowzone
I personally don't even bother taking Frostbite on my Ice Control characters. I'd rather not take a power that's so detrimental to survival.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
The -kd problems aren't exclusive to Ice Control, it's just that Ice is more dependent on it's KD power than other sets. Earth, grav, elec, and to a lesser extent mind use KB as damage mitigation (plus various support and damage sets), and even where the aoe immob doesn't prevent KD the sets don't get along well with controllers/doms who do have -kd. I don't think the solution should be specific to ice control. One possibility would be moving -kb from immobs to holds, but that would be a pretty big change. Making immobs change KB to KD, brief hold, or brief disorient might work, but I don't know how viable that would be from a programming perspective.
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I've always wished that instead of blocking KB effects, the Immobilizes instead capped their magnitude at 0.67, but I doubt that will ever happen. I think it would be viewed as overpowering for high-frequency knockbacks.|
Originally Posted by Vimes_NA
...Making immobs change KB to KD...
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Immob+Tornado, for example, would become near-hold-level CC.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
Energy melee, Mercs, Dual Pistols, Poison, Assault Rifle, Devices, Energy Assault.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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Detrimental to... |
Originally Posted by Snowzone
I personally don't even bother taking Frostbite on my Ice Control characters. I'd rather not take a power that's so detrimental to survival.
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Buh?
I'll give that its desirability changes with secondary and ancillary/patron pools, and that there are times you may want to take it later. My doms tend to take it later than my controllers as it's a *bad* way to open in many instances, especially early on. But I wouldn't just call it detrimental.
Yes, I play a fair amount of Ice - both dom and controller. (Ice/Emp, Ice/Rad, Ice/Storm, Ice/Kin, Ice/Psy dom.... reminds me, I still haven't rolled that Ice/Fire dom. No reason other than a "what the heck why not" I've wanted to do.)
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That's what water spout does though, so I'm not sure how much of a problem it would be in actual practice. Knockback suppression could be a possible solution as well.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I've always wished that instead of blocking KB effects, the Immobilizes instead capped their magnitude at 0.67, but I doubt that will ever happen. I think it would be viewed as overpowering for high-frequency knockbacks.
Immob+Tornado, for example, would become near-hold-level CC. |
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There are people who only care about hard control. And like everyone else they make up their own definition of hard control.|
Originally Posted by Snowzone
Ice Slick has no hard control outside its holds. Immobilise still lets things attack you, knockdown is easily negated, sleep is easily broken, slowing doesn't stop things from attacking at range and Arctic Air's confuse is unreliable. So if you're on a team, particularly with another Controller or Dominator, you may as well just stick to Block of Ice and Glacier because everything else is useless.
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If you think arctic air is useless that just tells the quality of your opinion - useless.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So don't use them on ice slick.
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Oh look, someone proving the assumption rule, yet again! Not only that, they resort to playground tactics. I will respond without lowering myself to your level.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
There are people who only care about hard control. And like everyone else they make up their own definition of hard control.
If you think arctic air is useless that just tells the quality of your opinion - useless. |
I care about unique tricks. While Ice Control does have its own tricks, it's the loser in an "I can do better" scenario with Earth Control. Quicksand is better than Shiver, Earthquake is better than Ice Slick, Stalagmites and even Salt Crystals are better than Flash Freeze, Volcanic Gasses is better than Glacier, Animate Stone is better in some ways than Jack Frost.
As for Arctic Air: I like it... if it's loaded full of endurance reduction and has a certain purple Confuse proc. That's not good for a game allegedly balanced on SOs.
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You're welcome to your opinion. And I'm not goign to say you're wrong, as it's personal preference and personal expectations there. Just going to leave it at "I disagree" for this in particular - I turn it on as needed, so END use isn't as bothersome to me. |
Originally Posted by Snowzone
As for Arctic Air: I like it... if it's loaded full of endurance reduction and has a certain purple Confuse proc. That's not good for a game allegedly balanced on SOs.
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I wouldn't argue with a secondary-effect-tweak on Ice - it can already do nasty things to recharge on enemies on its own, but some people want more (or something else) and that's fine. It's one of the nice things about the invention system, after all.
There are a few issues with Frostbite versus Ice Slick that hurt Ice Control.
The first is Containment. That was covered earlier.
The second is that for Fire, Plant, Dark, Electric, and Gravity, the AoEs are an attack. Moreover, they are an attack that doesn't disable your control powers. In the early years of the game, this originally wasn't so bad... you could immobilize things and for the first 12 seconds they wouldn't fall, but after that they would., because the actual base damage of the AoE isn't that great (outside of using Kinetics).
But then came procs (including a Chance to Hold proc).
And then came incarnate procs, which are tied to damage delivery.
And now here comes Hybrid, where you can get extra control from damage delivery powers.
The AoE immobilizes are basically blast powers now. For every set except the one that can't just spam them (and Mind and Illusion, which lack them entirely. Illusion doesn't really need it, Mind Control on Controllers is meanwhile probably worse off than even Ice at least in terms of damage).
The current situation is basically that to play Ice on a Controller, you should build with defense to handle enemies that aren't going to be falling because that is where most of your damage is going to come from. Jack Frost is durable (only as of the recent buff) but compared to say, Dark or Plant's pets isn't going to do too much.
WARNING: People who only want to press for buffs without also considering that nerfs are also possibly necessary shoudl stop reading here.
It's time we had an honest discussion about Plant Control.
Specifically, we need to talk about how outrageously overpowered it is and what to do about it. I don't feel it's honest in the slightest for us players to tell the developers this set or that set needs buffs while not doing the same kind of analysis on a gross overperformer like this one.
Seeds of Confusion is ridiculous. But it's not even the power I want to talk about right now. No, I want to talk about Roots. For reasons known only to the original developers, Roots does exactly twice the base damage of other immobilizes.
With an actual blast power, it would be considered insane for a power with the same recharge and modus operandi as 6 other powers to do literally twice as much damage as every other version of that power, but somehow Plant does.
If the problem ended there it might get a free pass, but it doesn't. Not only does Roots do significantly better damage than other immobilizes, but by my admitedly non-verified-by-Arcanaville estimate, on a Controller it does around the level of an actual Corruptor blast with half the recharge and twice the radius (before factoring in Scourge). Mids is doing some weird things I don't understand right now, so here are the numbers based on what I pulled from City of Data:
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Now, to understand how outrageous those numers are, we need to delve into a little geometry. A radius of 30ft vs a radius of 15ft doesn't mean Roots is "twice as big" as standard AoE blasts. There are two ways to look at it, as a circle (if you care only about stuff basically on the ground all at the same level) and as a sphere (if you care about the true area). A 15ft radius gives you 706ft area in a circle and ~14,137 ft in a sphere. Root's 30ft radius in comparison gives you 2827 ft in a circle and ~113,097 in a sphere. The sphere created by Roots is 8 times larger than standard AoR blast powers. And it recharges in half the time. Roots (Controller w/ Containment): Damage: 36.72 Recharge: 8s Radius: 30ft Explosive Arrow (Corr): Damage: 37.54 Recharge: 16s Radius: 15ft Explosive Blast (Corr): Damage: 37.54 Recharge: 16s Radius: 15ft
The power is only given that radius and recharge on the assumption that it's a "control" and not a "blast." And yet it's quite clear that this power has assumed the role of a Blast. And then there are all those procs to consider.
At best, Roots should be doing the damage of Fire's immobilizes. In fact, even the numbers on Fire's cages in a game now filled with damage procs and incarnate powers are eyebrow raising enough that I'm convinced a review of all Control sets is in order. But at least Fire adheres to the basic metric: it gets the same base damage as other sets, then tacks on a little DoT. Plant just straight up doubles the numbers. It would be like having Explosive Arrow randomly deliver twice as much damage as every other AoE. It just isn't done with attack powers. And since this power is clearly an attack, it needs to be brought in line.
Ice Control
Poison
Mercs
Energy Melee
Electric Blast
Ice Melee
Are some of the worst sets in game. Even Ice Blast needs some small tweaking.
*Stop it!* No nerfing of Plant! It's not the lead in damage Fire is. Plant is exceptional because it's an all around good set with damage that makes Fire Control sweat....a lot.
Suddenly Plant is so horrible funny how I didn't see any of this attitude on the forums before the Pet/Fire Imps Nerf.
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Indeed. I love Plant Control, but when I see people refer to it as a point for balancing other control sets I must shake my head.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
WARNING: People who only want to press for buffs without also considering that nerfs are also possibly necessary shoudl stop reading here.
It's time we had an honest discussion about Plant Control. Specifically, we need to talk about how outrageously overpowered it is and what to do about it. I don't feel it's honest in the slightest for us players to tell the developers this set or that set needs buffs while not doing the same kind of analysis on a gross overperformer like this one. |
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First, it has longer duration than other every spawn controls; 37 seconds of confusion vs. 15 seconds of stun for Stalagmites, Flash Fire, Wormhole and Heart of Darkness, 28 seconds of fear from Terrify and Fearsome Stare, and even beats out the 30 second patches of Ice Slick and Earthquake. It has higher base accuracy than other every spawn controls (90% vs 60%); even if we compare it with other cone mezzes it comes out ahead (Fearsome Stare: 75%, Siren's Song: 67.5%); even its sister power Synaptic Overload has a lower accuracy on it's initial attack (75%). Then it's recharge beats out many AoE controls with a 60 second recharge vs. the more traditional 90 seconds found on Stalagmites, Ice Slick, and others. Terrify, Fearsome Stare, and Static Field beat out Seeds in recharge, but provide neither the same mitigation or damage contribution.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
*Stop it!* No nerfing of Plant! It's not the lead in damage Fire is. Plant is exceptional because it's an all around good set with damage that makes Fire Control sweat....a lot.
Suddenly Plant is so horrible funny how I didn't see any of this attitude on the forums before the Pet/Fire Imps Nerf. |
In regards to when the idea arrived, bear in mind there was only a year between Plant's introduction to controllers and the pet recharge change. After that there have been numerous tweaks to Carrion Creepers that allowed it to take advantage or more procs and to benefit from damage enhancement across all applicable sets. You may not have heard much about Plant's damage potential at the time because it simply wasn't what it would eventually become. Add to this that it takes time for the general mindset of players to change from the de facto "Fire is best for damage" to recognizing what Plant could also do.
As much as I hate nerfherding I'd say that there's the sticky balance point of where io's and incarnate comes in here.
Long story short, if 2 billion influence incarnate builds are irrelevant when it comes to buffing, they are also irrelevant when it comes to nerfing. If io's and incarnate abilities are causing more power than the devs want then they are what should be nerfed not base classes to gimp anyone who isn't io'ed to the gills.
Just my 2c.
Most have already said what I'd say but I'll say it anyways:
My thoughts *in no particular order*:
Ice Control
Force Field
Sonic Resonance
Devices
Energy Melee
Gravity Control (just remove Dimension Shift w/ a new, cool power *waves to Arbiter Hawk* 
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Broadsword (or Katana)
War Mace (or Axe)
The last two power sets, to me, are "fine" but they need new/different animations to set them apart from each other.
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Just to add a bit, I think we'll see some normalizing with the procs changing from flat percentage chances to the PPM formula. I know it would likely cause a great deal of frothing at the mouth, but I think it would be in the best interest of balance for them to take a long look at interface proc rates as well and consider if they need to utilize the PPM formula.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
At best, Roots should be doing the damage of Fire's immobilizes. In fact, even the numbers on Fire's cages in a game now filled with damage procs and incarnate powers are eyebrow raising enough that I'm convinced a review of all Control sets is in order. But at least Fire adheres to the basic metric: it gets the same base damage as other sets, then tacks on a little DoT. Plant just straight up doubles the numbers. It would be like having Explosive Arrow randomly deliver twice as much damage as every other AoE. It just isn't done with attack powers. And since this power is clearly an attack, it needs to be brought in line.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
*Stop it!* No nerfing of Plant! It's not the lead in damage Fire is. Plant is exceptional because it's an all around good set with damage that makes Fire Control sweat....a lot.
Suddenly Plant is so horrible funny how I didn't see any of this attitude on the forums before the Pet/Fire Imps Nerf. |
The problem with objectivity is sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I have Plant Control characters who would be weakened by fixing it.
There are some points that are debatable in powerset discussions because they come down to context. But there is no context in which Root's damage values are justifiable in relation to the other Control sets or to powersets in general. None. Zero.
I personally believe asking the developers to buff a set is a matter of ethics. I'm telling them that in my unbiased opinion the set needs help. With Plant, concealing what I know to be extremely damning data while demanding fixes to other sets is to me tantamount to lying. The set is ridiculous, not just ancedotally but identifiably, based on numbers that are completely out of alignment with what has been established for other sets. There are two possible ways to deal with it:
1) Buff the damage of all other Control sets, along with Blasters, Defenders, Corruptors (at a minimum) along with all other ATs that are supposed to specialize in AoE powers
2) Fix Roots
The choice is pretty obvious to me.
All I have to say is build up...not tear down.
Again like I said before build the rest of the control sets along the lines of Illusion, Earth, Plant, Elec, Fire and Dark. Do not start the nerfcoaster because once it starts it will not stop until everyone is miserable.
Once you nerf Plant then Illusion will be nerfed...then Dark then...ect lets focus on the sets that need love like Ice, Mind, Gravity and maybe a touch of help in Elec.
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Ok...buff all AT's because Plant Control is breaking the game? You're really reaching out on that one. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The problem with objectivity is sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. I have Plant Control characters who would be weakened by fixing it.
There are some points that are debatable in powerset discussions because they come down to context. But there is no context in which Root's damage values are justifiable in relation to the other Control sets or to powersets in general. None. Zero. I personally believe asking the developers to buff a set is a matter of ethics. I'm telling them that in my unbiased opinion the set needs help. With Plant, concealing the real data to me is tantamount to lying. The set is ridiculous, not just ancedotally but identifiably, based on numbers that are completely out of alignment with what has been established for other sets. There are two possible ways to deal with it: 1) Buff the damage of all other Control sets, along with Blasters, Defenders, Corruptors (at a minimum) along with all other ATs that are supposed to specialize in AoE powers 2) Fix Roots The choice is pretty obvious to me. |
So I guess an Elec/Shield Brute or a SS/Fire Don't exist.
I agree with you about the buffs I think that the other controls sets should be brought up to snuff to the capabilities of Plant because in my opinion Mind, Ice and Grav still need work.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
All I have to say is build up...not tear down.
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Fixing a grossly overperforming powerset IS "building up." I'm not here to to wrangle power by misleading developers.
A policy of buffing powersets but never fixing major violations of balance formulas is unsustainable. It is, in fact, how we got where we are now, where all of these other sets NEED a buff.
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Which leads to building higher and higher... and constantly revisiting old sets to meet the newest standard.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
All I have to say is build up...not tear down.
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Again like I said before build the rest of the control sets along the lines of Illusion, Earth, Plant, Elec, Fire and Dark. Do not start the nerfcoaster because once it starts it will not stop until everyone is miserable. Once you nerf Plant then Illusion will be nerfed...then Dark then...ect lets focus on the sets that need love like Ice, Mind, Gravity and maybe a touch of help in Elec. |
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Well you can fix Plant once they fix Super Strength how about them apples? Also maybe fix /Shield, Kinetic Melee for Stalkers ect.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Fixing a grossly overperforming powerset IS "building up." I'm not here to to wrangle power by misleading developers.
A policy of buffing powersets but never fixing major violations of balance formulas is unsustainable. It is, in fact, how we got where we are now, where all of these other sets NEED a buff. |
Even if you balance plant control the sett would still be the most popular Primary due to it's well roundness and once you balance plant Dark, Fire and Illusion will become the top damage dealers and we all know that PA is over powered as well.
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No, no, no. Both of you...you're not reading my posts. I said to build all sets to the level of Plant Control. Not particularly in damage but in function and survival. Currently there are a lot of sets out there that don't provide decent damage or control. I said nothing about making a set better than plant control...and then turning around to make another set push even further.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Which leads to building higher and higher... and constantly revisiting old sets to meet the newest standard.
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Originally Posted by ketch
I think the devs did a good job with Dark Control ,and Electric for that matter. Dark sits slightly above the middle of the pack in damage, but pays for it with some odd quirks. Electric, in my opinion, has more damage potential than most credit it for due to the generally low opinion of Jolting Chain and its slow single target activations.
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Ice could use help. It needs to have its immobilizes not break ice slick. Other than that it is great.
Meanwhile, every other Control set has a ton of options. Mind Control has fear, reliable confuse and knockup; Electric Control has a reliable sleep, confuse, knockdown and endurance drain; Fire Control has the stun and immobilise combination; Earth Control also has stun and immobilise but also has good debuffs and the best AoE hold in the game; Illusion Control has Phantom Army and fear; Plant Control has a reliable confuse and lots of damage; and Dark Control has fear, confuse, stun and immobilise combo, and a useful debuff. Even Gravity Control has more options with its own stun and immobilise combo alongside decent single target damage.
Usually the sets with not as much control get good damage whilst those with good control get less damage. Ice Control has low control and low damage.