Which power sets need the most help?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-04-24 21:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
What if we added -resist to Repulsion Bomb and made it last... 20 sec or so? Maybe lower the end cost to 12?
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by JayboH
What if we added -resist to Repulsion Bomb and made it last... 20 sec or so? Maybe lower the end cost to 12?
|
I think Repulsion Bomb would be cool if if we ignored its name and reversed its original design. Enemies within 15ft of the target all get sucked next to the target (via teleport).
I've often suggested that Force Bolt should cause a collision of forces that locks enemies out of intangibility for a period of time (e.g. Carnies). Another option is for Force Bolt and a couple of other powers to apply a Dizzied status effect that prevents the use of certain abilities.
Of course that wouldn't be as necessary if they implemented my suggestion that the damage taken from a fall that results from a knockback be multiplied by the mag of knockback that triggered it (with some limits).
Quote:
I really don't think what Force Fields needs are more esoteric and highly situational power gimmicks. It needs utility that is useful against all content types so that people will value the set for more than Deflection Shield, Insulation Shield, and Dispersion Bubble outside of a couple extremely limited cases like caging the buff beams on the Recluse STF fight or Force Bubbling the paths in BAF.
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I've often suggested that Force Bolt should cause a collision of forces that locks enemies out of intangibility for a period of time (e.g. Carnies). Another option is for Force Bolt and a couple of other powers to apply a Dizzied status effect that prevents the use of certain abilities.
|
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
I think what they should do is merge Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield into a single power "Force Shield" (Or something like that), freeing up the Level 6 slot for a new ability. I'd also add a small Absorb buff to the target only, so that you can actually use the power tactically mid-combat to gain an additional benefit.
In the new slot I'd put a new siphon-like power, call it something like Subvert Defenses. Make it a PBAoE Foe -Defense/Resist and PBAoE +Damage/End Discount per target hit. Keep the debuff fairly small (15-20%) then stack the buff to say +25% Damage and 50% End Discount if it hits all targets. Smallish debuff/buff, cause all I want to do is to broaden Forcefield's horizons, not overshadow any other sets.
Then I'd bump the damage on Force Bolt from scale 0.1 to scale 1.0, just like they did on Repulsion Bomb way back when. (Maybe also add bruising, but that might be too much with Subvert Defenses too.)
This would give Forcefielders a minor method of damage buffing (which they currently lack entirely), as well as add some more "active" choices to the set, which is often just Buff->Blast->Repeat.
The only downside would be the loss of a possible LotG slot/ Red Fortune set... but there are power pools you can use for that.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Quote:
Yeah... no, I don't think the devs would go for that at all.|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
I think what they should do is merge Deflection Shield and Insulation Shield into a single power "Force Shield" (Or something like that), freeing up the Level 6 slot for a new ability. I'd also add a small Absorb buff to the target only, so that you can actually use the power tactically mid-combat to gain an additional benefit.
|
Now, make no mistake, I liked some of it... increasing the damage on Force Bolt? Yes! I have no idea how a power that knocked enemies around like it does could do so little damage as is.
But I don't think that adding an out-of-nowhere Resistance debuff to the 'attack' powers is going to work. Personally, giving them a Stun component would be the way to go... it make sense thematically, at least.
One vauge idea I had a while back was that... well, we know that the devs now have the ability to make a single power have different effects depending on if the target is an ally or an enemy. So I had the vauge idea that Deflection Shield and Insulating Shield could also be turned into some kind of single-target debuffs when used on enemies... but I'm not sure what kind of debuffs would be appropriate for them... (Insidently, this last can be included in all the shield powers, not that Cold or Themal shields really need them, though.)
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
Quote:
See, the problem of doing something like that (Say, we make the stun in Repulsion Bomb 100% rather than the 40% chance that it currently is, and give Force Bolt a disorient component) is that that just buffs the set in an area the set is already strong in; Mitigation.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Yeah... no, I don't think the devs would go for that at all.
Now, make no mistake, I liked some of it... increasing the damage on Force Bolt? Yes! I have no idea how a power that knocked enemies around like it does could do so little damage as is. But I don't think that adding an out-of-nowhere Resistance debuff to the 'attack' powers is going to work. Personally, giving them a Stun component would be the way to go... it make sense thematically, at least. <snip> |
Forcefield needs a method of increasing it's (team's) offense, not more defense*. Sets like Time and Cold offer "good enough" mitigation while also bringing potent offensive capabilities. Mitigation (be it Defense buffing, or control via Knock/stun) is all that Forcefield has.
*(Note: defense vs Defense, though it doesn't need any more Defense either.)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
One vauge idea I had a while back was that... well, we know that the devs now have the ability to make a single power have different effects depending on if the target is an ally or an enemy. So I had the vauge idea that Deflection Shield and Insulating Shield could also be turned into some kind of single-target debuffs when used on enemies... but I'm not sure what kind of debuffs would be appropriate for them... (Insidently, this last can be included in all the shield powers, not that Cold or Themal shields really need them, though.)
|
Including such a feature into the Cold/Thermal/etc shields would defeat the purpose, and just put Forcefield right back into the position it's in now, where it simply doesn't bring enough to the table to compete with the other sets.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
I agree with Oathbound.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
I've always felt that Repulsion bomb should deal more damage. Maybe double its base damage and cut the recharge in half?
Quote:
It's a damned shame AR is that mediocre. It's a cool set conceptually and fits professional military type toons better than the Devil May Cry style dual pistols. (That being said the DMC-feel of the DPs worked PERFECT with my main toon)
|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Someone beat me to it, but Assault Rifle is my pick.
The quickest and easiest change I would say the set needs the most is to frontload or "midnight grasp" Flamethrower. Frontload 70% or so of the damage upfront would give the set the oomph it lacks. Other than that, I'd give Full Auto a 16 target cap, change the KB in Buckshot and M30 to KD, and try to make the ranges and cone sizes of the various powers a little bit more homogenous so they require less jumping around to line stuff up. It could also use a big aesthetic improvement. I have a huge AR rant that I've repeated over the years but I'm too tired and too sick to type it all up right now. Perhaps tomorrow I will come back and elaborate. |
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Assault Rifle isn't mediocre.
I am all for help for AR but lets not exaggerate now.
My issues with the set are as follows:
1. Buckshot's base range needs to be increased.
2. FT and Ignite to front load the damage.
3. Full Auto to have a higher target cap.
That pretty much is it really.
Well AR and DP have the same issue in that a LOT of end game enemies have very high resistance to smashing/lethal damage. They come off weaker than they really are.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
Quote:
When you mean end game you have to be more specific (Incarnate or level 50). Furthermore, AR has fire (Ignite/FT) lethal (FA, Burst) and partial smashing (Grenade Launcher) damage types.
|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Well AR and DP have the same issue in that a LOT of end game enemies have very high resistance to smashing/lethal damage. They come off weaker than they really are.
|
If they reduced the KB in AR (seriously, considering how many AoE's AR has KB is the last thing the set needs) and fix the sniper so it's actually worth taking, AR would be an awesome set without being overpowered. Frontloading the damage on Flamethrower would be nice too, but even without it, if they removed the KB or downgraded it to KD it would be a fine set.
Quote:
My bad. End game, from my sense, usually means the iTrials. Since in most MMOs cap level raids are considered "End Game Content". |
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
When you mean end game you have to be more specific (Incarnate or level 50). Furthermore, AR has fire (Ignite/FT) lethal (FA, Burst) and partial smashing (Grenade Launcher) damage types.
|
But yeah, IDF/Warworks have some crazy resistance. Of course DP can use fire ammo to get by this as well, but if you compare them in contrast to a full on fire blast set or something they're rather lacking. I hope after this Praetoria nonsense we get a larger variety on enemies with resists.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I think Ar is going to be something else after the Snipe fix.
Quote:
Yeah Buckshot and M30 Grenade. Maybe fix LRM too.
|
Originally Posted by Grendar
If they reduced the KB in AR (seriously, considering how many AoE's AR has KB is the last thing the set needs) and fix the sniper so it's actually worth taking, AR would be an awesome set without being overpowered. Frontloading the damage on Flamethrower would be nice too, but even without it, if they removed the KB or downgraded it to KD it would be a fine set.
|
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I really don't think what Force Fields needs are more esoteric and highly situational power gimmicks. It needs utility that is useful against all content types so that people will value the set for more than Deflection Shield, Insulation Shield, and Dispersion Bubble outside of a couple extremely limited cases like caging the buff beams on the Recluse STF fight or Force Bubbling the paths in BAF.
|
Agreed but I'm not going to rehash what I've written in 50+ other threads every time I post. These suggestions are in addition to other things.
Regardless, I'm not sure I'd call the ability to knock an eney out of Phase/Intangible "highly situational." Maybe highly situational like Benumb is highly situational, especially attached to a better version of Force Bolt.
Along the lines of Forcefields (as well as other 1 trick pony support sets ::cough:: Sonic ::cough)), I think the devs really have only 2 options;
1) Make the set(s) better at what they already do, or..
2) Add secondary effects to existing powers, creating more diversification
If you were to take a vote, I am sure the overwhelming majority are going to say Option #2.
The real issue is getting a consensus on what the set(s) should get and convincing the Developers that they need these improvements.
One question that has always been brought to mind regarding this; would adding a new secondary effect to a power, without changing it from a toggle to click, or vice versa, really be a violation of the Cottage Rule.
For example, lets say we increased the damage on Force Bolt to be equivalent to, say, Neutron Bolt, and then ALSO added a "stun" effect or short duration Debuff (My personal choice). Would this "break" the rules.
If you ask me, the answer is clearly NO, but I am not sure that the Devs have actually answered that question.
thoughts ?
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Biospark
If you were to take a vote, I am sure the overwhelming majority are going to say Option #2.
The real issue is getting a consensus on what the set(s) should get and convincing the Developers that they need these improvements. One question that has always been brought to mind regarding this; would adding a new secondary effect to a power, without changing it from a toggle to click, or vice versa, really be a violation of the Cottage Rule. For example, lets say we increased the damage on Force Bolt to be equivalent to, say, Neutron Bolt, and then ALSO added a "stun" effect or short duration Debuff (My personal choice). Would this "break" the rules. If you ask me, the answer is clearly NO, but I am not sure that the Devs have actually answered that question. thoughts ? |
It's hard for me to think through what effect a damaging version of Force Bolt would have on the 4 ATs the power is available on. It seems great for Masterminds. Controllers probably wouldn't get Containment so I'm unsure it's worth casting. A second T1 for other Defender/Corruptors is hard for me to rate.
Another idea I had relates to the "Dizzied" status effect I mentioned above. The "Dizzied" status could dictate that the enemy is unable to try to stand up for some period of time after being knocked down/back. It's also something I had thought about as a fix for Ice Control's Ice Slick power: enemies who fall get up more slowly, too.
The "Dizzied" status effect would be enhanced by Knockback IOs and enhancements. Powers like Ice Slick would have the value hard-coded in at a decent value, while powers like Force Bolt and a few choice other powers could enhance it, and using Power Boost would have some effect.
The question that I am wondering though is ; would these types of changes violate the "cottage rule".
The devs HAVE increased numbers in the past, they have "added" new mechanics to existing powers (resistance in Super Reflexes). So I think the answer is NO, but what do the devs think regarding the improvements (too many to count) suggested for sets like FF (and others).
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
This would not be a violation of the cottage rule. It might be a violation of some other rule, but not the cottage rule. The intent of the cottage rule is not to alter a power in such a way that the players that currently have it would be affected to such an extent that what they are currently using the power for no longer works at all. That's why conserve power can become energize. Lots of things changed, but what didn't change is that it was still a click power that provided sizeable endurance discount. It now *also* provides heal and regen. That can make the power valued *more* for its heal than its endurance management, but that's not the same thing as saying you cannot use it as a conserve power tool any more. You can, so the spirit of the cottage rule is maintained.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
One question that has always been brought to mind regarding this; would adding a new secondary effect to a power, without changing it from a toggle to click, or vice versa, really be a violation of the Cottage Rule.
For example, lets say we increased the damage on Force Bolt to be equivalent to, say, Neutron Bolt, and then ALSO added a "stun" effect or short duration Debuff (My personal choice). Would this "break" the rules. If you ask me, the answer is clearly NO, but I am not sure that the Devs have actually answered that question. |
In general, adding without taking away is allowed, and tweaking numbers without dramatically eliminating a general feature is allowed. Provided that doing so has other valid reasons *for* doing it, the cottage rule generally doesn't stand in the way of such changes.
Incidentally, saying "power X is only useful to me when value Y is Z, and now that its lower than that its useless" is an irrelevant complaint within the context of the cottage rule. That is explicitly *not* what the cottage rule protects. No rule protects against such changes.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I guess Legion and I are the only ones that play Stormies =) But I wholeheartedly agree with everything said in this post. I think one of the main reasons that Storm Summoning deserves some help is simply because it has never to my knowledge had any improvements. Oh and I think it would be cool if O2 Boost gave a small amount of endurance to the target, perhaps like taking half a catch a breath inspiration, nothing major like refilling the endurance bar or anything of the sort.
|
Originally Posted by <span style="color: GoldenRod; font-weight: bold;">Legion_of_One</span>
Storm Summoning. It's one of the original power sets, and it hasn't been touched. I recognize that stormies are an elite bunch (and I might point out that it seems like none of the Devs have toons with this set, and no signature NPCs are stormies), but I wonder if a little TLC might revitalize this unique and fun buff/debuff/soft control set.
Gale, for starters, must be taken when SS is a secondary set (controllers, corruptors, masterminds), and is a very unreliable, situationally utile power. It seems to miss most targets and causes negligible damage. Knockback is ample in the SS set, and obviously gale is all about KB. First, it should at least be accurate. It's the kind of power that one falls back on when in a tight spot, and it's likely to not even do the one thing it's useful for. It has a slow recharge rate, and is endurance costly. I would also suggest adding an "impact" mechanic such as was recently introduced for gravity control, so that targets who end up flying through the air end up potentially receiving additional damage. O2 Boost is pretty good. Snow Storm is extremely endurance intensive. It slows and has a recharge debuff, but could be improved with a to-hit debuff (it IS a snow storm after all!). It's interesting to watch AVs run frantically when this power is on them-- they don't seem to realize it's not hurting them all that much. Steamy Mist is also a good power, though the defense it offers is marginal, considering this is a defender primary power set. Freezing Rain is one of the best, most underrated debuffs in the game. Wouldn't change a thing. Hurricane. Well, again, extremely hard on the endurance. The range of the to hit debuff is far too short. In my opinion, any ranged attacks should have the greatest debuff. Melee attacks should have an easier time getting through the debuff effect, which is where the knockback component would help protect the player. Thunder Clap, for a tier 7 power, should not provide a mere mag 2 stun. It looks cool, but gets a pass more often than not. At least a chance for a mag 3 stun, perhaps with the added component of a blinding effect or a significant endurance drain on successful hits would make this power so much more useful. Tornado is one of my favourite powers, but it has issues. First, it works against itself by flinging its targets arounds the map. It would be nice if it could once in awhile trap a target within its vortex and do some consistent damage. This power is great on AVs, because they can't be knocked back by it. It locks on, and spins away while the damage ticks off. The defense debuff and stun effects are ok. Because of the unusual way this "pet" interacts with targets (i.e. erratically), it would be more effective if its stats (damage and debuffs) were boosted. Visually, it seems that an improvement has been made on this concept with Water Spout and Scirocco's sand storms, so Tornado should receive this treatment for sure. Lightning Storm is (well, should be) the defining power in this set. It does far less damage than it should, with an extremely lengthy recharge period. Either the damage should go up, or the endurance cost and recharge decreased so that larger, stacked, storm effects become possible. The storm itself is rooted when it should at the very least follow slowly behind the caster (heck, even blasters' auto turret pet was emancipated from its initially stationary nature!). No reason why these storms shouldn't be mobile. The knockback is especially problematic for this power, as targets are struck and knocked beyond the storm's range to hit them. This power would benefit from knock down instead of kb. I love Storm Summoning, and currently play 4 of them on a regular basis. My primary toon, Ebon Witch, is a stormie. With some overdue attention to this set, I have no doubt that it would attract more players and reclaim its rightful place among the other signature CoH power sets. |
I would love to see some changes to storm but it's very unlikely. Oh god that would be so awesome!
Someone beat me to it, but Assault Rifle is my pick.
The quickest and easiest change I would say the set needs the most is to frontload or "midnight grasp" Flamethrower. Frontload 70% or so of the damage upfront would give the set the oomph it lacks. Other than that, I'd give Full Auto a 16 target cap, change the KB in Buckshot and M30 to KD, and try to make the ranges and cone sizes of the various powers a little bit more homogenous so they require less jumping around to line stuff up.
It could also use a big aesthetic improvement.
I have a huge AR rant that I've repeated over the years but I'm too tired and too sick to type it all up right now. Perhaps tomorrow I will come back and elaborate.