Make Your Case (Plummit)
I wonder if phasing tech could be utilized to let heroes experience a Hero side only version of a zone and for villains a Villains only version of a zone?
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If the heroes and villains were intended to be entirely separate and never interact then I'd think it would be easier and safer (from a programming perspective) to just go the Ouroboros route and have two separate but apparently similar versions of the zone, each with its own orientation.
I personally would rather have a single zone that catered to both factions and just deal with the immersion problems of cats and dogs comingling. Similar immersion problems in Wow have never prevented their PvE servers from being far and away more popular than their world PvP servers are, and I think you'd find that to be true in most games that feature a choice between a PvP and a PvE environment, even if the game is ostensibly a PvP game.
If done well, pretty much any zone could use a revamp. Done poorly, I would prefer no revamps at all.
In general I don't like the new phasing tech. I dislike that I can't use Recall Friend across any appreciable distance in Atlas. I also don't think it was properly used in Atlas, because there was nothing done in the zone that couldn't have been done better with instanced maps.
That said, one zone that could properly use phasing tech is Croatoa. As the story advances there, the zone populations and features could change. It's also a zone that is small and not much of a crossroads, so I find I rarely use Recall Friend or ATT there.
EDIT: In fact, maybe phasing tech is more appropriately used in the hazard zones, as they tend to tell a single story that the player progresses through. So in addition to Croatoa, maybe aspects of the Hollows, Striga, and Faultline could change as the player moves through the arcs.
Possibly phasing tech could also find a role in large special maps used in new task force or trial missions?
Other zones that could use a graphical or play-oriented revamp:
1) Shadow Shard. Obviously there are possibilities here for a top-level co-op zone, incarnate missions, task force revamps, and so on.
2) Boomtown. Wasn't this going to get a revamp back in 2006? At present, there's nothing attractive about this zone; it's been left idle too long. It's the place where Council go to die before you can harvest them for Numina, and where Bertha hides her big botty. A fair bit of old lore ties into Boomtown; if this zone gets a revamp, I hope the old lore will be exploited and added to, not ignored.
3) Steel Canyon / Skyway City / Talos. These zones could use the same textures in a graphical update, taking some of the new buildings found in Atlas Park and maybe adding a few.
4) Brickstown / KR / IP / Perez. These zones could use a graphical update featuring a bit more of a Gotham style. I like the idea of doing something with the Zig in Bricks, and maybe explaining some of the mystery of the Mashu Bridge. And definitely keep the giant "coin" in Kings Row ... it always reminds me of Golden Age vigilantes, like the old Batman. While I like the grittiness of these zones, it could be given slightly greater emphasis. I also like the idea of adding architectural features that underscore a bit more of the magic theme in these zones, as they have a tendency to look too blankly industrial. I believe the architecture needs to reflect in some way the district names; a district like Seven Gates could look a bit more sinister or sublime. Of course, some Gothic features developed for these zones could also find a place in certain districts in the more upscale zones in #3 above, like Astral District in Skyway.
It was suggested earlier in this thread that Perez get a phasing tech makeover. I would recommend against this, as it would disable Recall Friend across a fairly large zone that features an extensive maze.
Also, if IP gets a makeover, please put a second train stop in the southern end of the map.
Since I'm not going to be at the Pummit, here's the case I would make, and about how I would make it in three minutes.
I would vote Skyway City as next in line for a revamp. There are a number of reasons. First, it would allow us to extend the improvements and technology introduced in Atlas moving forward, so newer players get to continue to experience them as they level. Rather than shotgunning them around, I feel it would be better if the devs extended them upward in level from Atlas through at least one "teen" zone, then through a 20s zone (probably Talos), then into Bricks or Founders, and on up, over time.
Second, there is a way to connect the revamp to the lore. Rather than simply polishing the zone up, its worth noting the Admiral Sutter task force basically destroys Skyway City. So there is a canonical reason to change the zone in almost any way desired. We aren't limited to what the zone looks like now in any way.
Third, compared to the relatively flat and thus accessible Steel Canyon, Skyway's design makes it much harder to navigate. While earlier access to travel powers reduces this problem, its also not a *fun* zone to navigate in many areas because you're surrounded by relatively uninteresting geometry, particularly near the center of the zone. I believe it would be interesting to rethink making Skyway City vertical, but more visually and navigably interesting.
Fourth, I believe there is an additional opportunity to revamp the Troll Rave zone event so that it is more interesting and engaging, and not just an endless source of Troll spawns.
Fifth, there is another interesting opportunity to enhance the Babbage encounter that occurs during the Synapse task force.
Tying this all together, I think there's a way to connect Paragon City with Praetoria. We have a recently destroyed zone that needs to be rebuilt, and huge numbers of refugees from Praetoria entering Primal Earth. There are lots of interesting ways to go here. Skyway City could become a Praetorian ghetto. Or it could become the place where Praetorians resettle and help rebuild the zone with Praetorian architectural sensibilities. It seems to be a unique opportunity to connect a zone revamp with a major storyline in a way that allows for deep exploration, unlike Atlas that is and had to be roughly similar to its original form.
Do the Trolls become a new force in Paragon after an influx of poor Praetorian refugees swells their ranks? Do we have Primal and Praetorian Clockwork fighting for supremacy? Does a new Praetorian spire rise in the center of Skyway? Revamping Skyway could be an incredibly rich mine of ideas for future content.
Thank you.
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Good points, Arcanaville.
Another good reason for the Skyway "teen" range is it connects directly to the other "teen" zone that, while several years old, is still newer, fresher, and well-designed (Faultline).
I often took my characters Atlas-->Hollows-->Faultline-->Striga--->RWZ, all zones that have primarily self-contained arcs themed for the zone, and all content that's newer than the stock CoH zones. Faultline's contacts are level-separated in a way that the content from one isn't enough to get you all the way to the next one, so I'd have to pop out to skyway for random missions before returning. Filling in some of that "teen" gap with an adjacent zone would certainly help.
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For those that don't, and aren't sure how to approach something like this, my advice is:
1. Write down what you want to say, and rehearse it in a mirror so you are comfortable saying it. DONT rehearse in your head. It doesn't work. Your lips have to be moving and your voice audible for rehearsal to work. If you aren't doing it and can't hear it, its not going to help. Trust me. Another reason for rehearsing: people speak faster and mumble when they get nervous. Want to know how fast to talk? Watch the evening news. They *train* those people to talk at that speed, because that's the speed that people find most comfortable to listen to. And believe me: it may seem like a natural voice until you try to replicate it, and discover they are speaking at 2/3rds speed.
2. Stick to a few simple points. A lot of people tend to overestimate how long their time will actually last. It tends to always feel faster when you're speaking in front of an actual audience. Another reason for rehearsing: time it. My presentation above clocks in at two minutes forty seconds with my normal presentation speaking voice. That's just about right for a three minute presentation.
3. Have a progression. Start somewhere, get somewhere. Pick some way to make it seem like the points have a distinct and natural order. Mine go from the general to the more specific, and end with a punch line.
4. Inject some passion. You have to care about what you're saying, and appear to care.
BUT
5. Don't argue with nobody. Many people can only make a case by argument. So they will invent an opponent and try to argue against this imaginary foe. "I think it should be Skyway. You might think Steel is a better choice but you're wrong because..." Unless you're really good at it, this doesn't work. Be positive. Debates only work when you have a real live opponent. Arguing with one in your own head doesn't play well.
6. Leave something to the imagination. You want to engage your listeners. You want them to not just listen, but THINK about what you're saying. And it can get easy to drone out on an endless chain of speakers. The way I do that is, I build to a finish, then start asking questions. I have my own ideas about how those things should go, but its far more useful to my cause to have the devs on the panel thinking about how *they* would do those things. Because once they do, I have them hooked.
7. Wrap up. Summarize. Three minutes doesn't seem like long enough to need a summary, but just some ten second "why I'm here" thing can be useful. It'll be one of the last things your audience hears, and possibly the only distinct thing they will remember. Make the last fifteen seconds count, by giving a simple summary of why they should pay attention to you. My idea is great because blank.
8. I usually end with a thank you. Alternatively, if you have a special touchdown dance, crumple up your notes and spike them and then do that. Oh, did I remember to say bring notes? Bring notes. Bullet points written in BIG TYPE that you can see without squinting.
This isn't about being artificial "polished." Its about the fact that people can only judge your ideas if you can get them out of your head. If it gets stuck in there because you freeze, or you skip parts because you get nervous, or you accidentally say something entirely unrelated because you get distracted, it doesn't matter how good the idea is. Give yourself every opportunity to get your idea out of your head and into the devs' heads.
Remember, you don't have this guy helping you:
![](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lbnnuyzsVz1qc4j0a.png)
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I'd twist Independence Port from north-south to east-west, then put it in place of the Baumton Canal, making Valor Bridge be the connection between Steel Canyon and Boomtown.
The harbor would then become the main entrance to the city from the sea, with a huge statue standing with one foot on either side of the entrance, and lots of trendy shops and apartments near it, but the zone would gradually become darker and grittier further away from the sea entrance to the east with Terra Volta being merged into the zone at the far western end.
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In general I don't like the new phasing tech. I dislike that I can't use Recall Friend across any appreciable distance in Atlas. I also don't think it was properly used in Atlas, because there was nothing done in the zone that couldn't have been done better with instanced maps.
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There's tradeoffs involved. Sometimes a suboptimal approach gets used because the optimal approach just costs too much.
I won't be at the Plummit, so for all those attending:
You guys have to buy the devs a drink.
Not "everyone pitch in to buy a drink." Each and every person has to buy a drink for a dev. They deserve it.
Really... they do.
....And then, when they're good and plastered, get them to spill the beans on everything Paragon Studios is working on.
I'll be waiting for your report.
![](https://sites.google.com/site/chasyork/_/rsrc/1286288783877/home/chasebanner.jpg)
It's important to note that a big part of why they leaned on phasing for Atlas was to reduce the number of instanced maps. They're expensive from an operational resource standpoint. It's a LOT cheaper to manage players and mobs in a shared zone than to spin up a lot of instances. And since a huge percentage of active characters at any point are low level, Atlas Park would tend to be busy.
There's tradeoffs involved. Sometimes a suboptimal approach gets used because the optimal approach just costs too much. |
Also, some of the phasing tech cannot be replicated with instancing, because they are explicitly intended to alter the environment of Atlas in response to player actions. For example, Matthew/Dana Habashy.
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I won't be at the Plummit, so for all those attending:
You guys have to buy the devs a drink. Not "everyone pitch in to buy a drink." |
![](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xoMelOIvuik/TXZUqwRWU-I/AAAAAAAABKQ/0DmCVLV3JAU/Neon-Flexible-Drinking-Straw.jpg)
Here you go, devs, all of you huddle up here.
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AE is not a zone. It's a system, within the game. It's not a zone. You don't "Zone to AE." It's a system you use to create content.
It's not a zone. I hate when I say the most basic sentences in English and people continue to act like it's not crystal clear. AE is not a zone, it is a system. The whole "Make Your Case" forum is about what zone would players like to see revamp and not what system they'd like to see revamp (and I'd bet you'd it be PvP and Bases long before AE.) |
Yes, a lot of the help the AE needs the most is in the form of UI corrections, so it'd lean a lot harder on engineering than a 'real zone', but a lot of the categories of effort that'd go into a zone revamp would be applicable to the AE as well.
New maps, of various flavors. It could be the opportunity for environment artists to do what the character artists are now getting to do thanks to the paragon market: One-off environments that aren't part of anything in particular.
Since they wouldn't have to be intended to serve a specific set piece, they could be distinct or unusual without requiring a lot of the fiddly details that go into maps like what the SSAs use.
Plus, any new map that gets generated here would be part of the toolkit for mission designers down the road.
I'm not saying this is necessarily the best idea, but I don't think it's without merit, and I think someone sufficiently impassioned to consider other facets could sell it.
The AE is more than a system. It may not be a zone, but it is still a content nexus.
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You know how every time on uStream Zwillinger has a guest who is talking about powers, or character design, or story content and it's time for questions and people continually ask about PvP and Bases?
Same thing.
You're asking the wrong tree.
I completely support a revamp of AE as I think it could be an amazing system - but this particular forum is not about systems; it is about zones.
You know how every time on uStream Zwillinger has a guest who is talking about powers, or character design, or story content and it's time for questions and people continually ask about PvP and Bases? Same thing. You're asking the wrong tree. |
So, not the same thing, and characterizing it that way is more than a little unfair.
![](http://www.mominmanagement.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/sm_head_on_desk.jpg)
I completely support a revamp of AE as I think it could be an amazing system - but this particular forum is not about systems; it is about zones.
You know how every time on uStream Zwillinger has a guest who is talking about powers, or character design, or story content and it's time for questions and people continually ask about PvP and Bases? Same thing. You're asking the wrong tree. |
You could also be incorrect. I can imagine a way to pitch the idea that the AE should be revamped, and as part of that idea it should become a place, like Pocket D, rather than just a bunch of buildings scattered throughout the game. As a place, certain things start to make more sense. For example, it could become our version of the Power Station: a place where we could test powers and respecs, inventions and incarnate powers, in a try before we buy atmosphere. It could be a place that had standard fixed environments players could experience separate from the instanced missions currently available. It could be a place where authors could hook up and communicate. The AE could even one day absorb the arenas, allowing for more flexible PvP environments and rules. You could reinstate pre-I13 mechanics if you wanted to. After all, its the AE: anything is possible.
Making the AE a place, and a very big place comparable to Pocket D, could allow for expanding its role in the game and getting another shot at tapping its potential. Form follows function: think about all the ways we might want to leverage the AE, and then design a space that can accommodate that.
Its probably a hard sell. But not an impossible sell. You just have to find the right hook, and the right pitch. I don't think I have the magic pitch myself for this at the moment, but I can see an avenue to attempt it.
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KR, but only so there is a smoother progression of presentation and content from the initial starter zone to the next. As it stands, it is a bit jarring.
maybe a KR/Steel macro zone? just a random ponder
Making the AE a place, and a very big place comparable to Pocket D, could allow for expanding its role in the game and getting another shot at tapping its potential. Form follows function: think about all the ways we might want to leverage the AE, and then design a space that can accommodate that.
Its probably a hard sell. But not an impossible sell. You just have to find the right hook, and the right pitch. I don't think I have the magic pitch myself for this at the moment, but I can see an avenue to attempt it. |
Maybe a revamp of the Shadow Shard could be condensing all the zones into one, and a Heroes/Villains PVP zone like Recluse's Victory, where different aspects of Rularuu are struggling against each other for power, and the sky would change from orange to purple depending on which was in power. Of course, using the Nemesis base content from the RWZ arcs would look fantastic. Some Level 50 story arcs would be great there, and all the contacts would be present if the zone was in "day orange" or "night purple."
The discussion at the summit about the shadow shard showed the devs are kind of hesitant to tackle it, largely because it would be such a big project and if started might even be a multi-issue revamp, potentially dropping it from 4 to 2 or 3 zones instead, potentially being co-op.
The other zones discussed were Perez Park, Independence Port, Boomtown, Eden, Striga Isle, and king's row.
The devs also had some guidelines and rules laid out, which I kind of which they'd spoiled ahead of time to maybe help people refine their ideas.
The first was whether or not people wanted the level range to remain the same or change.
Then, to declare what the defining point or centerpiece of the zone was (Ex: Moth Graveyard being the epicenter for everything nasty in Dark Astoria and the most visually corrupted area).
Enemy make up was limited to 3 different groups, though a 4th could be included provided a compelling enough case was presented.
The zone arc could be 6 arcs long or 3 each for heroes/villains separately. Participants were also asked what the central story or theme of the zone would be.
Was a fairly interesting panel.
The discussion at the summit about the shadow shard showed the devs are kind of hesitant to tackle it, largely because it would be such a big project and if started might even be a multi-issue revamp, potentially dropping it from 4 to 2 or 3 zones instead, potentially being co-op.
The other zones discussed were Perez Park, Independence Port, Boomtown, Eden, Striga Isle, and king's row. The devs also had some guidelines and rules laid out, which I kind of which they'd spoiled ahead of time to maybe help people refine their ideas. The first was whether or not people wanted the level range to remain the same or change. Then, to declare what the defining point or centerpiece of the zone was (Ex: Moth Graveyard being the epicenter for everything nasty in Dark Astoria and the most visually corrupted area). Enemy make up was limited to 3 different groups, though a 4th could be included provided a compelling enough case was presented. The zone arc could be 6 arcs long or 3 each for heroes/villains separately. Participants were also asked what the central story or theme of the zone would be. Was a fairly interesting panel. |
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Interesting. Under those rules, I think I could have made an extremely compelling case for Skyway, with only minor modifications of what I posted above.
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I did like your ideas on skyway though.
Oh oop, I did leave one aspect out that I think would impact your ideas thus far presented on Skyway. One caveat they added was that the revamp would be done without a major graphical revamp. Like, slight tweaks or specific spot updates seemed ok, but nothing that would involve having to change the architecture of the whole zone.
I did like your ideas on skyway though. |
With that rule change, I would have shifted gears to Eden. I would make it an extension of the Hive, and be the place where the DE spill out of the Hive and try to extend into Paragon.
I would add Sirens Call-like hot spots of DE activity that culminated with a triggerable zone event where the DE pour out from a spot near the Hive entrance into the zone for players to fight, the trigger being pegging a meter like the zone victory meter in Sirens. All the DE in the zone would be giant monster flagged so players of all levels could participate (although there might still be a minimum level) and there would be a tunnel system that would allow low level players to get there from the Hollows (without having to cut through Founders Falls).
My inclination is also to make it a shared zone, with an entrance to it for villains from Cap au Diable. I also have this half-formed idea for a way to make a shared zone more interesting. The basic idea is that there would be two different things you could do in the zone: run instanced missions and participate in the activities in the zone (like Sirens) which provides an option for solo players. And in both cases, the fiction surrounding the activity is written to either be heroic or villanous in terms of trying to halt the DE spread into Paragon or try to destabilize the situation against Paragon. However, the net *gameplay* result is that the players would not be acting directly against each other's interests: rather they would be accelerating the event to its conclusion in two different ways. You would either get triumphant heroes and grudging villains, or vice versa.
Its a germ of an idea, but I envision that heroic players would be trying to stop the DE invasion by squashing hot spots, but that eventually triggers the mass invasion they would then have to stop. Conversely the villains could be trying to directly trigger the mass invasion by other means, to use as a distraction that draws everyone away from a separate goal the villains could attempt to complete - stealing some will of the earth macguffin of some kind perhaps - which can only be attempted while the DE invasion was happening.
Story-wise, the villains would be trying to trigger an invasion of DE as a distraction to their true goal. The heroes would be trying to stop a DE invasion from threatening Paragon City. But both would be in effect trying to do the same thing to a point in game play terms - trigger an invasion - and then each could either help each other or go their separate ways in the event.
I think this "competing but not competing" idea might be a new twist on the co-op zone. The players can easily roleplay actively acting against each other's interests, while simultaneously cooperating to push the event along in the same general direction, before parting at the end.
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I posted it as a suggestion here as both (hopefully... consider it 'thinking outside the box' if that will help you relax), as it would probably* be easier than rebuilding just one zone and more players would get the benefit of a better AE than "just a single zone", sytem shmystem. If I was going to be there, I'd probably do it anyways, just to be the spoiler. But I won't be there, so there you go.
*Who knows what kind of code mess it might be?