She probably would have seen your post but I just PM'd her for you.
Assuming I'm not a complete dofus, she got my PM.
...Arcanaville is a she?
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
Quote:
Arcanaville is an unshackled AI. We installed a female personality matrix, because females tend to be more compliable. And have better singing voices.
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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
...Arcanaville is a she?
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Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Quote:
Be thankful you can post to the forums at all. The original plan for Freedom was to only have Read-Only access to the forums with no posting privileges for non-VIP accounts.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
(I cannot describe how annoying the limited forum access is.) |
However, there is a purchase that can be made to get a monthly license to post in all sections of the forums. It has other things attached to it as well, but the full forum access is the one that is overlooked the most.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
Yeah, I assume (s)he would have seen it, too, but thanks.|
Originally Posted by FallenHero
She probably would have seen your post but I just PM'd her for you.
Assuming I'm not a complete dofus, she got my PM. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Texas Justice
Be thankful you can post to the forums at all. The original plan for Freedom was to only have Read-Only access to the forums with no posting privileges for non-VIP accounts.
However, there is a purchase that can be made to get a monthly license to post in all sections of the forums. It has other things attached to it as well, but the full forum access is the one that is overlooked the most. |
I did not realize there was a license that could provide the benefit of forum access... interesting!
Quote:
I'm pretty sure he's talking about VIP membership.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
I did not realize there was a license that could provide the benefit of forum access... interesting!
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Quote:
Arcanaville is a freakin' math-machine which would indicate the logical side of the brain is dominant. Traditionally that is more the case in females than males.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
...Arcanaville is a she?
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However, Forums Arcanaville is gender-neutral (unless you know he/she/it/they) and just really, really smart.
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
I remember when gauntlet meant that all tanker attacks were actually a tiny AoE (I assume this was fixed).
I did the striga arc with a macer. I had to destroy the vampire machines. My damage was pathetic. But the vampire machines made the vampires appear in a stack. So even my single target attacks hit all of them. I would hit the machine and about 4 vampires with every blow.
For aggro on a tanker I use a taunt aura and taunt. Gauntlet isn't even factored in.
Quote:
That compares the threat generated by Gauntlet to the threat generated by something else with taunt. Given the nature of taunt, its possible for something else to override a taunt-boosted level of hate with their own taunt-boosted hate. But Gauntlet hits multiple targets with single target attacks, while brutes only taunt the target, and not all brutes and scrappers have taunt auras that would factor into that equation. Nothing else tends to taunt. Without taunt, you would have to wait for the taunt to expire or deal enough damage to kill most targets to override it. So as long as the tanker is taunting more actual targets, you can't simply state that a brute has identical aggro generating capacity to a tanker. What you're saying is that a brute can override the taunt of a tanker on targets the brute is taunting. That's not saying the same thing.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I feel really guilty about writing this post. It's a reply to Arcanaville from another thread... but I have no alternative to, at the very least, getting the message to her. My account is premium, so I can't reply in that forum and I can't write PMs. I attempted to write an in game email, but it turns out that the character limit there was way too low for what I was trying to convey (it complained at me to remove ~2100 characters when the entire message was ~2700).
So, yeah, really sorry about this. (I cannot describe how annoying the limited forum access is.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I believe the aoe portion of Gauntlet is overrated. All it does is generate an AoE taunt pulse that deals no damage, has a variable radius, and can miss. While this is extra AoE threat a Brute does not have, it is insignificant next to the extra damage output a Brute deals. Rationale: Threat = DMG * (TauntDurationRemaining*1000) * ThreatMod * AI Preferences * RangeMod * Debuffs I'll assume that AI Preferences, RangeMod, and Debuffs will be static, which reduces the fomula to: Threat = DMG * (TauntDurationRemaining*1000) * ThreatMod We also know that a taunt effect applied that deals no damage functions as if it did one damage. That further simplifies the equation to: Threat = (TauntDurationRemaining*1000) * ThreatMod So a Tanker, with a ThreadMod of 4, would deal 4*TauntDurationRemaining with Gauntlet's aoe. That would be anywhere from 54,000 (13.5*1000*4) to 320,000 (80*1000*4, slotted Taunt) threat per application. If the player attacked once every 1.25 sec, that would be 43,200 to 256,000 threat per second. Over the course of 10 seconds, that would be 432,000 to 2,560,000 threat (note the high end would never be met since TauntDurationRemaining would be decreasing each second). That sounds like a lot... except that is is the equivalent to dealing 8 extra damage. I'm serious. Threat = 8 * (13.5*1000) * 4 = 432,000 Threat = 8 * (80*1000) * 4 = 2,560,000 Assuming a modest 60% Fury, that equates to roughly a 51.4% dmg edge over Tankers (no Bruising, aoe is the key here, and Bruising would boost Brute damage equally anyways). That's guaranteed to generate more than 8 damage for this example. Further, Gauntlet is limited by the number of activations performed - more power activations, more Gauntlet threat. Brute's aoe threat is dependent upon their damage, which can be increased far more significantly than activations/sec. So, yeah.... Gauntlet sucks. I have never, never seen Gauntlet effect my threat. I can never remember it once turning a mob away from a Brute or Scrapper due to it. [edit: Gauntlet's best case 10s threat generation of 2,560,000 is the equivalent of ~47.4 damage against a target with 13.5s duration (ie: a target the Brute hasn't Taunted).] |
As to Gauntlet directing taunt away from a Scrapper, the last time I tested taunt was during discussions about what taunt/gauntlet does to targets that aren't damaged, because I wasn't sure myself. If I set up a situation where a tanker cycles a single target attack on one thing only, and then attack another thing nearby with a scrapper, it generally takes a lot of damage generated to override that aggro, often more than enough to kill the target, unless the Scrapper has a taunt aura. This is true even if the tanker is not using the taunt power itself, and not using a damage or taunt aura. That's just the effects of gauntlet with no damage. It usually seems to work as the equations suggest, which is that in most cases only taunt can override taunt.
Also, in the future you could always shoot a short global or email to me in-game and I could find a way to see what you want to send.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Quote:
A basic problem in a lot of these arguments is that people are using the same words to mean different things.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
you can't simply state that a brute has identical aggro generating capacity to a tanker.
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To person A "they do the same damage" means X does 3.17 damage and Y does 3.17 damage
To person B it means it takes 2 hits with X to take out a foe and it takes 2 hits with Y to take out a foe.
Likewise if a brute will not be defeated by the damage of a spawn and a tanker will not be defeated by the damage of a spawn some say that means the brute has the same damage mitigation - others say it is not the same if the brute takes more damage.
But are perfectly reasonable but different interpretations of the statement.
Likewise saying "a brute holds aggro as well as a tanker" can mean that they generate the exact same aggro as a tanker - or it can mean that the brute holds the aggro of the same number of enemies as the tanker.
I hazard to guess that most players care about the effects in quantum gameplay effects not a spreadsheet. How many hits it takes to defeat a foe, how many foes you can aggro, etc. These things need to be discussed in practical terms not theoretical terms.
If a team of 8 has a brute tanking will the brute hold aggro as well as a tanker would do in the same situation? Not will the invisible aggro numbers be exactly the same - but will the number and time of foes aggro held be the same?
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Unless mids and City of Data are wrong, every brute has Taunt auras.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
... and not all brutes and scrappers have taunt auras that would factor into that equation.
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Also, how many targets can gauntlet actually effect? Looking at City of data it looks like 5 targets in a 3' radius. The radius of a player capsule is 1.5', which takes up space in PBAoEs, is there a similar issue for critters? What determines a hit? (asking, does the radius of the power need to just touch the capsule, or does it require covering a certain percentage of the capsule?)
When looking at large creature rigs, cataphract/ravager/Warwalker, does the apparently increased size of the collision capsule limit the number of targets that can be hit?
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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I was under the impression Gauntlet ranges weren't static. Some attacks have wider Gauntlet ranges than others: Smite is 8ft, Jab is 3ft, Focused Burst is 13ft, etc.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Also, how many targets can gauntlet actually effect? Looking at City of data it looks like 5 targets in a 3' radius.
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Although I do believe they're all universally 5 target capped.
Quote:
When I said "Scrappers", I meant "Scrappers with taunt auras." Sorry for not being clear.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That compares the threat generated by Gauntlet to the threat generated by something else with taunt. Given the nature of taunt, its possible for something else to override a taunt-boosted level of hate with their own taunt-boosted hate. But Gauntlet hits multiple targets with single target attacks, while brutes only taunt the target, and not all brutes and scrappers have taunt auras that would factor into that equation. Nothing else tends to taunt. Without taunt, you would have to wait for the taunt to expire or deal enough damage to kill most targets to override it. So as long as the tanker is taunting more actual targets, you can't simply state that a brute has identical aggro generating capacity to a tanker. What you're saying is that a brute can override the taunt of a tanker on targets the brute is taunting. That's not saying the same thing.
As to Gauntlet directing taunt away from a Scrapper, the last time I tested taunt was during discussions about what taunt/gauntlet does to targets that aren't damaged, because I wasn't sure myself. If I set up a situation where a tanker cycles a single target attack on one thing only, and then attack another thing nearby with a scrapper, it generally takes a lot of damage generated to override that aggro, often more than enough to kill the target, unless the Scrapper has a taunt aura. This is true even if the tanker is not using the taunt power itself, and not using a damage or taunt aura. That's just the effects of gauntlet with no damage. It usually seems to work as the equations suggest, which is that in most cases only taunt can override taunt. |
Yes, the crux of my argument is based on how taunt enabled characters compare to one another. The reason, as you point out, is that taunt effects pretty much cause enemies to ignore damage based threat because of how large the multiplier.
Even in the situations of Tanker vs Blaster, Gauntlet's effect is minimized. Tankers have taunt auras, which pulse a 13.5 - 16.875s taunt in their radius every 0.5 - 2 seconds. That handles up to 10 targets standing still, or more than that if the Tanker actually moves (changing the targets effected by the aura).
Second, Tankers have AoEs that can effect multiple targets.
Then there is Gauntlet. As I mentioned, Gauntlet's AoE isn't standard, some as small as 3ft (Barrage) feet, others as larget as 17ft (Total Focus).
Between all three, there is going to be a lot of overlap. Since taunt effect effectively washes out purely damage based threat, Gauntlet is wasted unless it hits a non-taunted foe.
So, I find it very unimpressive against people without taunt effects and weaker than extra aoe damage compared to allies with taunt effects, what use does it serve? (I personally always use Taunt on Tankers anyways because it's the only way to hold aggro off Brutes and Scrappers with taunt auras.)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Also, in the future you could always shoot a short global or email to me in-game and I could find a way to see what you want to send.
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Quote:
The radius on guantlet is dependent upon the power. Jab has a three foot radius, but Knock-out Blow has a 17 foot radius.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Unless mids and City of Data are wrong, every brute has Taunt auras.
Also, how many targets can gauntlet actually effect? Looking at City of data it looks like 5 targets in a 3' radius. The radius of a player capsule is 1.5', which takes up space in PBAoEs, is there a similar issue for critters? What determines a hit? (asking, does the radius of the power need to just touch the capsule, or does it require covering a certain percentage of the capsule?) |
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The radius of the gauntlet effect is variable, and generally increases with the tier/damage of the attack. You're probably looking at a couple tier 1 attacks.|
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Also, how many targets can gauntlet actually effect? Looking at City of data it looks like 5 targets in a 3' radius. The radius of a player capsule is 1.5', which takes up space in PBAoEs, is there a similar issue for critters? What determines a hit? (asking, does the radius of the power need to just touch the capsule, or does it require covering a certain percentage of the capsule?)
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A target can be hit by an AoE if the radius of the AoE intersects with the target volume. Any intersection will do for the purposes of range or radius.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Oh, it was fixed. That was wonderful(ly broken) when you recall that back then NPCs didn't obey any bounding boxes with respect to one another, and would stack without limit in a given spot.|
Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
I remember when gauntlet meant that all tanker attacks were actually a tiny AoE (I assume this was fixed).
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I killed myself more than a few times popping ET on too many foes at once. It didn't matter much, though. I think I essentially PL'd my Inv/EM about 10 levels abusing that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Damnit UberGuy, you were supposed to comment about how the radius of Gauntlet changes, just like the four posts before yours.
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Well, back when it made Tankers melee AoE machines, the big attacks did hit foes further away than the dinky ones... Does that count?
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Damnit UberGuy, you were supposed to comment about how the radius of Gauntlet changes, just like the four posts before yours.
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So, just to be 100% positive. The radius of gauntlet differs by power? 
Good to know!
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Quote:
MajorDecoy knows me too well. I was indeed talking about purchasing a VIP subscription. That includes a license for full forum access as well as a few in-game benefits as well.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Quote:
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If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Quote:
Break the chain, seven years of nerfs.
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
Damnit UberGuy, you were supposed to comment about how the radius of Gauntlet changes, just like the four posts before yours.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
I'm open to corrections, but if I'm not mistaken, Damage Auras aren't necessarily the same thing as Taunt Auras.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
Unless mids and City of Data are wrong, every brute has Taunt auras.
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Quote:
THat's true. On scrappers, damage auras do not taunt. And tank damage auras didn't get a taunt until mid-issue three.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I'm open to corrections, but if I'm not mistaken, Damage Auras aren't necessarily the same thing as Taunt Auras.
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However, every brute damage aura includes a taunt effect.
Quote:
But Brute damage auras do have Taunt attached to them.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I'm open to corrections, but if I'm not mistaken, Damage Auras aren't necessarily the same thing as Taunt Auras.
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De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
I feel really guilty about writing this post. It's a reply to Arcanaville from another thread... but I have no alternative to, at the very least, getting the message to her. My account is premium, so I can't reply in that forum and I can't write PMs. I attempted to write an in game email, but it turns out that the character limit there was way too low for what I was trying to convey (it complained at me to remove ~2100 characters when the entire message was ~2700).
So, yeah, really sorry about this. (I cannot describe how annoying the limited forum access is.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rationale:
Threat = DMG * (TauntDurationRemaining*1000) * ThreatMod * AI Preferences * RangeMod * Debuffs
I'll assume that AI Preferences, RangeMod, and Debuffs will be static, which reduces the fomula to:
Threat = DMG * (TauntDurationRemaining*1000) * ThreatMod
We also know that a taunt effect applied that deals no damage functions as if it did one damage. That further simplifies the equation to:
Threat = (TauntDurationRemaining*1000) * ThreatMod
So a Tanker, with a ThreadMod of 4, would deal 4*TauntDurationRemaining with Gauntlet's aoe. That would be anywhere from 54,000 (13.5*1000*4) to 320,000 (80*1000*4, slotted Taunt) threat per application. If the player attacked once every 1.25 sec, that would be 43,200 to 256,000 threat per second. Over the course of 10 seconds, that would be 432,000 to 2,560,000 threat (note the high end would never be met since TauntDurationRemaining would be decreasing each second).
That sounds like a lot... except that is is the equivalent to dealing 8 extra damage. I'm serious.
Threat = 8 * (13.5*1000) * 4 = 432,000
Threat = 8 * (80*1000) * 4 = 2,560,000
Assuming a modest 60% Fury, that equates to roughly a 51.4% dmg edge over Tankers (no Bruising, aoe is the key here, and Bruising would boost Brute damage equally anyways). That's guaranteed to generate more than 8 damage for this example. Further, Gauntlet is limited by the number of activations performed - more power activations, more Gauntlet threat. Brute's aoe threat is dependent upon their damage, which can be increased far more significantly than activations/sec.
So, yeah.... Gauntlet sucks. I have never, never seen Gauntlet effect my threat. I can never remember it once turning a mob away from a Brute or Scrapper due to it.
[edit: Gauntlet's best case 10s threat generation of 2,560,000 is the equivalent of ~47.4 damage against a target with 13.5s duration (ie: a target the Brute hasn't Taunted).]