Blasters suck, the movie.
By
Abyssus,
Posted on: 2012-03-30 17:12 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Abuse =/= Exploit. You're not getting this through your head, and I've now pointed it out twice. Abusing something is not the same as Exploiting something. You, for example, clearly abuse the power of Drain Psyche, because you are well aware of how powerful it is. It is also why you've said in the past that all other Blasters are gimpy if they aren't, at least, /Mental.
That is what abuse is. It's another term for using a power for all it's worth, and in certain cases, doing things arguably not quite intentional for it. I think most of us can agree Drain Psyche was never meant to be an outlier as it is. It's not an Exploit, because it isn't. Although I'm willing to argue the enhanced -Regen is probably questionable, and using it SOLELY for that factor MAY constitute exploit, but it's possible it's WAI. Regardless, again - Abuse =/= Exploit. |
Didn't you say you wanted everyone that used Hami-Os with shield defense should be banned ?
You have to pardon me if I can't take you seriously when you talk about abuse exploits.
Edited: Changed charge to defense.
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... yes, because putting Hami-O's in Shield Charge did anything?|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Didn't you say you wanted everyone that used Hami-Os with shield charge banned ?
You have to pardon me if I can't take you seriously when you talk about abuse exploits. |
I more meant exploiting the confirmed exploit in Active Defense with Hami-O's. Yeah, I feel blatant exploiting to that level should be bannable. I was all for it happening. I also said I am glad no one was banned, but I would not have blamed Paragon nor had sympathy for anyone banned for blatant exploit abuse.
You can disagree as much as you want with it not being an exploit, but Paragon said it was, flat out, years ago. And times after that. Not discussing this, as it's a fact.
Not to mention the various other Hami-O Exploits. An Exploit is an Exploit and I strongly feel blatant exploiting of them should be punished. People who exploited it got lucky. Nothing more.
Note: Edit'd out the word 'abuse' since I was using the modern term of abuse earlier, and not the definition term of abuse. Hur dur modern slang so hard.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Not to mention the various other Hami-O Exploits. An Exploit is an Exploit and I strongly feel blatant exploiting of them should be punished. People who exploited it got lucky. Nothing more.
Note: Edit'd out the word 'abuse' since I was using the modern term of abuse earlier, and not the definition term of abuse. Hur dur modern slang so hard. |
Now you are using the words "exploited" with "abuse" interchangeably and clearly carrying the same connotation/implication in both cases, regardless of whether you edited it out you have made your position clear, and I have rebutted it. At this point I see no logical reason for sustaining a dialogue with you, but Another_Fan will probably do a better job than I do anyways, they usually do.
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The way you yelled, screamed, condescended and more the past few weeks in many threads before this latest transition I find it hard to understand this zero tolerance for taking a light hearted jab. For goodness sakes Reppu lighten up. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
I am not 'thin skinned' so much as to not be able to take jabbing, I simply just have zero tolerance for it. The difference is that; zero tolerance versus not being able to take it. If I want to improve as a person, I have to stand against what others scorned me for. If we can't be professional in a discussion like this, then what's the point? Regardless, acknowledged. Apologies for assuming you were being a derp. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Sigh. Because, again, 'Abuse' has the dictionary definition and the Modern definition of slang produced by gamers. I have provided both definitions, and am rather clear when I use them. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Now you are using the words "exploited" with "abuse" interchangeably and clearly carrying the same connotation/implication in both cases, regardless of whether you edited it out you have made your position clear, and I have rebutted it. At this point I see no logical reason for sustaining a dialogue with you, but Another_Fan will probably do a better job than I do anyways, they usually do.
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Dictionary Definition: Abuse; ie 'the inappropriate use of something'.
Slang Definition: Abuse; ie 'the excessive use of something'.
I do not understand why I need to explain things twice. Am I really the only one living in two-thousand and twelve and have been exposed to modern gaming slang?
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At what level is it determined to be abusive? I mean you can't use the power anymore than the amount of times it recharges in the fight. You are not suggesting that someone hold off on using "any" of there powers as soon as they recharge or are you?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Sigh. Because, again, 'Abuse' has the dictionary definition and the Modern definition of slang produced by gamers. I have provided both definitions, and am rather clear when I use them.
Dictionary Definition: Abuse; ie 'the inappropriate use of something'. Slang Definition: Abuse; ie 'the excessive use of something'. I do not understand why I need to explain things twice. Am I really the only one living in two-thousand and twelve and have been exposed to modern gaming slang? |
This is all very confusing the way you are putting it.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Again, it's modern gaming slang and it was a word I assume people knew the use for. I should have simply said, in retrospective to the level of flack I'm getting for it...|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
At what level is it determined to be abusive? I mean you can't use the power anymore than the amount of times it recharges in the fight. You are not suggesting that someone hold off on using "any" of there powers as soon as they recharge or are you?
This is all very confusing the way you are putting it. |
"You're well aware of Drain Psyche's power, which is why you aim to use it as much as possible due to this."
This is what the modern slang use of abuse suggests; using something excessively with acknowledge of it's sheer power. That's all it was, and didn't suggest it was a bad thing. As much as I feel Drain Psyche will need to be nerfed due to being an EXTREME outlier, does not mean I think people are WRONG for 'abusing' it's strength while it is here. Heck, I want to make a Derpy Pistols/Mental Manipulation Blaster because I know how silly Drain Psyche is.
I'm lazy.
This is NOT the same as my chastising of people who abused, ie; inappropriate use of the Hami-O Exploit. THOSE people got lucky.
Again, english is stupid.
So you "are" suggesting that people hold off using "any" power that is really good in a set as soon as it recharges like Footstomp group KD, Eagle's Claw/Cobra Strike Perma Stun, Seeds group confuse, Flashfire group stun and Drain Psyche -regen because its too good?
I guess I am saying every set has go to powers that allow you to kill the enemy efficiently which is WAI. You can perma flip Bosses with Air superiority what makes DP so special it needs a nerf.
I don't think it makes any sense not to use whatever powers you can as soon as they recharge to kill the enemy modern gaming slang aside.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
So you "are" suggesting that people hold off using "any" power that is really good in a set as soon as it recharges like Footstomp group KD, Eagle's Claw/Cobra Strike Perma Stun, Seeds group confuse, Flashfire group stun and Drain Psyche -regen because its too good?
I guess I am saying every set has go to powers that allow you to kill the enemy efficiently which is WAI. You can perma flip Bosses with Air superiority what makes DP so special it needs a nerf. I don't think it makes any sense not to use whatever powers you can as soon as they recharge to kill the enemy modern gaming slang aside. |
No. Just no. It's like you glossed my post over and frankly there's been enough of that this entire thread.
If you don't get it, I'm not spelling it out.
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It's not really gamer slang though, just slang in general, or the cynicism of the modern age. Speaking in hyperbole seems to be popular; someone saying I abuse the internet because I'll google any thing or use it to get directions to where I need to go even when I probably know where I'm going (probably being the key word) doesn't sound as far off as me saying I abuse my grandma's motherly nature to do my laundry when she asks. Am I truly 'misusing' any of those? (note: I could easily go to the laundry mat myself but she knows I hate folding/hanging clothes) But I will say, out loud to her face 'thanks for letting me abuse you :P'|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
At what level is it determined to be abusive? I mean you can't use the power anymore than the amount of times it recharges in the fight. You are not suggesting that someone hold off on using "any" of there powers as soon as they recharge or are you?
This is all very confusing the way you are putting it. |
As for Drain Psyche, 2HB, I think one of the main reasons it's overpowered is because it has to be. If it weren't, it'd barely be a drop in survivability for Blasters. If the power wasn't a 'per target' buff but instead something like Howling Twilight (a wide AoE debuff but with a 1-shot self buff that only needed 1 target for max power and could not scale), the +regen would have to be so ridiculously high to be even noticeable, you have to start asking why that is. Why would you need high amounts of regen for it to be at all noticeable? Is it because Blaster base survivability is so low? Perhaps they haven't the tools to leverage normal ranges of a +regen buff? They have so few other utilities of note?
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I thought for most people it was the added AOE that was the draw, and most players have no real reason to care about the -Regen.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Perhaps Psychic Shockwave IS good (and it is!), but we all know the MAIN draw is most definitely the sheer power of Drain Psyche compared to every other power the other secondaries, and Mental, offers. ;P
I am not 'thin skinned' so much as to not be able to take jabbing, I simply just have zero tolerance for it. The difference is that; zero tolerance versus not being able to take it. If I want to improve as a person, I have to stand against what others scorned me for. If we can't be professional in a discussion like this, then what's the point? Regardless, acknowledged. Apologies for assuming you were being a derp. |
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The BrandX Collection
It just seems like you are saying abuse is using any good power as much as it is available. That to me and at least a few others is strange.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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It's... almost like you keep ignoring the modern definition of the word abuse in context to a differing scenario. I give up. Go talk to Leo_G.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
It just seems like you are saying abuse is using any good power as much as it is available. That to me and at least a few others is strange.
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Yes to the lack of tools to leverage normal(melee toons) ranges of a +regen. I honestly thought this was a given that folks acknowledged way back during the testing and introduction of the set. The set got a really good once over, look at what they did to Psi Shockwave.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Why would you need high amounts of regen for it to be at all noticeable? Is it because Blaster base survivability is so low? Perhaps they haven't the tools to leverage normal ranges of a +regen buff? They have so few other utilities of note?
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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With tier 4 interface (reactive) and Destiny refilling my end bar I got the time minus the time to clear the vicinity down near six minutes. That's a rather dramatic difference considering I forgot to turn on Enervating field until about a minute into the actual fight with the Quarry, duh.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But those things get *better* as they add tools, they *start* off pretty good.
Also youtube finally did its thing: Ill/Rad vs Quarry. And in not-too-terrible-on-the-eyes 720HD (the original is about 1040). Gonna see what happens with a proper interface power next. |
Hmm, I should probably test this build against a pylon next, that's actually a pretty decent time for not using Lore pets.
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I am damm near 50 years old and don't hang around the younger crowd that has changed the meaning of the word abuse into some slang meaning that does not really mean abuse forgive me for being slow to catch on.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
It's... almost like you keep ignoring the modern definition of the word abuse in context to a differing scenario. I give up. Go talk to Leo_G.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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It's fine. Just... I explained it four times. If you didn't understand by then, I can only assume selective ignoring.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I am damm near 50 years old and don't hang around the younger crowd that has changed the meaning of the word abuse into some slang meaning that does not really mean abuse forgive me for being slow to catch on.
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Remember. It helps to be nice. I'll try. - 3/28/2012
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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... What was rude about what I just said? I... am really starting to consider you are seriously trolling at this point.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Remember. It helps to be nice. I'll try. - 3/28/2012
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Congrats Arcana, that's pretty awesome. I'm very tempted to dust off my Fire/Mental now just to compete with your times. >.> Someone in the Pylon forum who I helped out already recently ran my Fire/Ment build (though they made modifications that i can't vouch for) and got a pretty decent time, but I don't remember what it was. I'm really tempted to try my own build out for myself now, but I already have so much COH crap to do that his submission might have to do for now.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
With tier 4 interface (reactive) and Destiny refilling my end bar I got the time minus the time to clear the vicinity down near six minutes. That's a rather dramatic difference considering I forgot to turn on Enervating field until about a minute into the actual fight with the Quarry, duh.
Hmm, I should probably test this build against a pylon next, that's actually a pretty decent time for not using Lore pets. |
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I didn't say you were rude Reppu, no need to play victim. My hands are down at my side I am not taking a shot at you it was a kid/joke to lighten the mood up a bit since there is no reason for being all tense.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
... What was rude about what I just said? I... am really starting to consider you are seriously trolling at this point.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
On the topic of abuse:
Ideally, we're given a toolbox of powers to use in our powersets. When the game gives us a nail, we have a hammer power. When the game gives us a screw, we have a screwdriver power. When the game gives us a plank of wood, we have a miter saw power and then a sandpaper power, followed by a varnish power to finish it off.
However, when the hammer power is so strong that it does the job of a hammer and a saw and a screwdriver, that's a problem. One might call it abusable to use it in non-hammer situations, though probably not exploitative if you're just using the power as designed.
That's Blaze, that's Rain of Arrows, that's Drain Psyche. Really, Fire Blast players should not be trying to get their recharge to where they can just spam Blaze; ideally there should be some kind of chain. Rain of Arrows should not be so good that it's worth using on a single enemy. Drain Psyche should not be so good that it can singlehandedly floor your enemy's regen and spike your own to where you could kill a GM with Brawl if you chose. Complex or difficult situations call for multiple tools, and being able to break it apart with just one is kind of OP.
As a counter-example, the reason Traps is such a solid powerset isn't because of any one power. It's a lot of good but not singly OP powers that provide a varied toolbox allowing the character to dismantle challenges with the proper application of the tools. It's not simply "lolpoisontrap I win".
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Now I wanna see someone solo a GM with Brawl.
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Originally Posted by Bosstone
On the topic of abuse:
Ideally, we're given a toolbox of powers to use in our powersets. When the game gives us a nail, we have a hammer power. When the game gives us a screw, we have a screwdriver power. When the game gives us a plank of wood, we have a miter saw power and then a sandpaper power, followed by a varnish power to finish it off. However, when the hammer power is so strong that it does the job of a hammer and a saw and a screwdriver, that's a problem. One might call it abusable to use it in non-hammer situations, though probably not exploitative if you're just using the power as designed. That's Blaze, that's Rain of Arrows, that's Drain Psyche. Really, Fire Blast players should not be trying to get their recharge to where they can just spam Blaze; ideally there should be some kind of chain. Rain of Arrows should not be so good that it's worth using on a single enemy. Drain Psyche should not be so good that it can singlehandedly floor your enemy's regen and spike your own to where you could kill a GM with Brawl if you chose. Complex or difficult situations call for multiple tools, and being able to break it apart with just one is kind of OP. As a counter-example, the reason Traps is such a solid powerset isn't because of any one power. It's a lot of good but not singly OP powers that provide a varied toolbox allowing the character to dismantle challenges with the proper application of the tools. It's not simply "lolpoisontrap I win". |
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Wait.|
Originally Posted by Mad Grim
Now I wanna see someone solo a GM with Brawl.
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... Can I five slot it with procs?
Not everyone is an IO player though. The vast majority of the player base cannot afford my Blaster's build. It has already been pointed out by just about everyone that my Blaster is an extreme case that is not representative of the state of the AT as a whole, and I'd like to submit the argument that it is, by extension, not representative of the state of /Mental Blasters as a whole. I'm simply showcasing potential. Perma Eclipse, Perma Double Rage, Perma Phantom Army, Perma Chrono Shift, etc. are all examples of stupidly overpowered things that people like me can make permanent. It's not fair to call for nerfs to things on those grounds.
Also, I did not claim anything you seem to think I am suggesting in the first post. Much like you've said in the very recent past that people think the Blaster AT doesn't need buffs just because Mental performs well.
I honestly can't respond to any of this because you're being a hypocrite in BOTH paragraphs, but I'll try a basic response;
Mental Manipulation and Fire Blast are extreme outliers. If the AT is buffed to put everything else on the level of 'Astounding', but Fire Blast and Mental Manipulation are not brought down in return, you have an extreme imbalance. THAT is the issue.
Fire Blast and Mental Manipulation before enough above the other sets in their category that they would need nerfs if we want to see SUFFICIENT buffing.