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Not only is the toxic damage from Bile Spray rarely resisted anyway, the Venom Grenade debuffs toxic resistance by 40% instead of the 20% that if debuffs other resistances.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Crab Spider!
Almost all your attacks have -def, including one or two AoEs that are perfect homes for Achilles' Heel procs. Frenzy, being PBAoE, can take BOTH -Resist procs. Venom Grenade adds more -Resist. Go Leviathan for an epic to get Arctic Breath to apply MORE -Resist. Bile Spray is also nice for it's pure Toxic damage, which is rarely resisted. |
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@Inquisitor
I'd be looking at some combo of Primary->Traps, Rad, or Cold Defender paired with Sonic Blast secondary.
That said one of the most potent themed groups my friends and I had (usually 3 to 5 of us) were Dark themed group. Everyone had at least one of something "Dark" for the Twilight Brotherhood.
1) Dark Melee/Willpower scrapper
2) Dark Miasma/Archery defender
3) Sonic Resonance/Dark Blast defender
4) Cold Domination/Dark Blast defender
5) Dark Miasma/Dark Blast defender
By the mid to late-20's we were running everything at +4/x8.
So nasty we bored ourselves to death by the early 30's as we vaporized everything in our paths.
That scrapper was silly hard to hurt if all 4 defenders were online.
Maybe with the new Dark set out ...
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I'd be willing to bet that had far more to do with the presence of four defenders that the darkity-darkness of the team. Don't get me wrong, every Dark set I've played has been excellent - I'm a huge Dark Melee fan, myself. But any team with four defenders should be unstoppable, unless very poorly played.|
Originally Posted by Doomguide
That said one of the most potent themed groups my friends and I had (usually 3 to 5 of us) were Dark themed group.
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| Everyone had at least one of something "Dark" for the Twilight Brotherhood. |
@Roderick
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Flash Arrow and Acid Arrow won't stack. Disruption will because it creates separate pseudo-pets which apply the effect. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Disruption Arrow stacks I believe. Not sure about the others. I don't think Flash arrow stacks from the same caster but does stack with other blinders... useful when my Fire/TA used 2 blinds for a 15% -to hit
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Gas Arrow doesn't as far as I'm aware because it only uses a Pseudopet for the graphical fx, the actual power effect is direct from the caster and set not to stack (could be wrong about that though)
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Oh I know you're right. I've been on numerous small teams made entirely of defenders. All Emps-Green Machine, all Rads-Faithful Fans of Fallout and a duo of Cold/Ice defenders come to mind immediately. I think what made (makes) it standout in my mind was just how early the group started rather lopsidedly trouncing everything (while still not even properly SO'd). But even there it had as much to do with the buffs loaded onto a WP scrapper as the debuffs I'd hazard to say.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
I'd be willing to bet that had far more to do with the presence of four defenders that the darkity-darkness of the team. Don't get me wrong, every Dark set I've played has been excellent - I'm a huge Dark Melee fan, myself. But any team with four defenders should be unstoppable, unless very poorly played.
Team Sparkles, or Team Furball? :P |
/Poison's not so bad for single target -RES:
Envenom + Venomous Gas = -40% DEF/-48.75% RES
Poison Trap = -1000% Regen
then you throw in Weaken.
Was tossing this around not too long ago; with Sonic/Poison being one of the options.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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With the AOE treatment it got last issue, it's not too shabby there either. Not as powerful on the splashes, but not bad. A good "everything but the kitchen sink" debuff set.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
/Poison's not so bad for single target -RES:
Envenom + Venomous Gas = -40% DEF/-48.75% RES Poison Trap = -1000% Regen then you throw in Weaken. Was tossing this around not too long ago; with Sonic/Poison being one of the options. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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that's an interesting thought. How would something like a dark/poison crupper stack up?
I say crupper because they do a bit more damage than fenders so therefore should be more solo friendly which is sometimes useful. (At least, that's my understanding.)
Thelonious Monk
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The splash actually counts as a separate effect, meaning if you have two targets near eachother, you can alternate between them and get an amplified effect on both (fighting Romulus, the LRSF, the patrons in the STF, etc.).|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
With the AOE treatment it got last issue, it's not too shabby there either. Not as powerful on the splashes, but not bad. A good "everything but the kitchen sink" debuff set.
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So, with that in mind, Poison is around...
-63.75% resistance (83.75% if you toss in an Achilles proc in Envenom, and 103.75% if you can nab the PvP proc - add an extra -18.75% from Poisonous Ray in Mace Mastery for a potential grand total of 122.5%).
-60% damage.
-75% to regen (50% ST).
-55% to defense, unenhanced. -75% with Poisonous Ray.
Poison Trap isn't -regen by the way, it's -recovery. It's -1000%, sure, but that's not quite as useful for hard targets as -regen is. It's also got some secondary effect neutering in there, some heal resistance, a few ways to hold a target, and some -recharge. None are of outstanding use, but they're still good.
For primaries, Earth Control is great for tons of -def. Electric is terrific at flooring endurance. Ice will help lower their recharge. Corruptors have Sonic, as mentioned, which will add silly amounts of -res. Radiation is great if you hate defense, Fire if you hate things living, Ice if you hate things living but also hate an enemy having recharge, etc.
Special mention goes to Beam Rifle: you'll be able to squeeze an extra -150% regen out of Disintergrate, an extra -15% damage res, and a bit of -def. The regen is helpful because of Poison's rather anemic regen debuffs, so if you're looking to solo hard targets, that might help you out slightly.
And a super special mention to Masterminds. They have slightly worse debuff values for everything but -res, which is actually a tad better since Poison's t9 is put on a pet for them. It also has the benefit of making people vomit when that pet is in range, which is for technical purposes a mag 4000 hold for 4 seconds. If you're thinking of going the MM route, I'd recommend either Demons or Bots. Demons come with even more -res in the pets and the personal powers, and Bots come with ample amounts of -regen in the Assault Bot's attacks. Both are very good - Demons will help keep you alive with a bit of resistance, Bots with a bit of defense in their forcefields.
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I wouldn't recommend poison paired with bots at all. They are best at range(even if they like to run in and brawl at times). Maybe with the new beast set on the way, but definately not bots.
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Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
And a super special mention to Masterminds. They have slightly worse debuff values for everything but -res, which is actually a tad better since Poison's t9 is put on a pet for them. It also has the benefit of making people vomit when that pet is in range, which is for technical purposes a mag 4000 hold for 4 seconds. If you're thinking of going the MM route, I'd recommend either Demons or Bots. Demons come with even more -res in the pets and the personal powers, and Bots come with ample amounts of -regen in the Assault Bot's attacks. Both are very good - Demons will help keep you alive with a bit of resistance, Bots with a bit of defense in their forcefields.
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Egads! ...and Grrrr! My mistake for thinking that it was the same as the /Traps version.|
Originally Posted by Android_5Point9
Poison Trap isn't -regen by the way, it's -recovery. It's -1000%, sure, but that's not quite as useful for hard targets as -regen is. It's also got some secondary effect neutering in there, some heal resistance, a few ways to hold a target, and some -recharge. None are of outstanding use, but they're still good.
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Then you may want to try Sonic/Rad:
Lingering Radiation + EMPulse = -1500% Regen (and a hefty -Recharge)
EMPulse + Choking Cloud = Mag 3-6 Hold (can't remember if secondaries get the Overpower effect)
Enervating Field = -22.5% Res (which is smaller than some of the other sets but pairing up with Sonic should more than compensate)
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Another one to look at is Dom's Psionic Assault; solid -Recharge and Drain Psyche. It's pretty good OTB but you'd definitely want to slot it for ACC/Rech. Thinking Dark/Psi/Mace...
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MMs:
Demons is probably the obvious choice (-RES, -Rech plus survival buffs and heals) but Mercs get a bad rap even though they can all be slotted with Achille's Heel procs (6 pets doing constant -DEF and almost constant -RES)
Too bad you don't like /Traps; you've got some leeway on setup and timing with pets getting your aggro
Mercs + multiple Acid Mortars = more stacking defense and resis debuffs plus more sources drawing aggro away from you.
Poision Trap ambushes (or even toe-bombing) can be very nice for -Regen
People also bag on Caltrops but it can be used as a short range -Regen tool (minimum of -1hp/sec (stackable for -2hp/sec for duration of overlap); if you ignore critter resists, you can get up to -5hp to -10hp(overlap)/sec (from either damage slotting or -RES debuffing). Combine damage slotting AND -res debuffing... Caltrops gets a new life (subject to critter resists)
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Ok tried posting this three times and I've failed every time. Let's hope it works this time
I've run 2 traps toons, one a traps/sonic defender - got him to 50, and a rad/traps crupper to 49. Both got consigned to the alt-bin in the sky. Just couldn't get on with either of them.
I also had one MM at 50 but he's gone the same way - that was a thugs/poison before /poison got a makeover.
I'm not sure why I don't like traps but I've never found it very effective but somebody earlier in the thread suggested Dual Pistols and that might have some synergy with traps - so I've made a DP/Traps crupper just for the fun of it. Don't know how it'll do, but could be interesting.
Thelonious Monk
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I would go with Zombie Man's Dark/?? defender suggestion but I would add in the caveat that you could take DP as your secondary, use Chemical Ammo, and further increase the -Damage you can put out.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Ok tried posting this three times and I've failed every time. Let's hope it works this time
I've run 2 traps toons, one a traps/sonic defender - got him to 50, and a rad/traps crupper to 49. Both got consigned to the alt-bin in the sky. Just couldn't get on with either of them. I also had one MM at 50 but he's gone the same way - that was a thugs/poison before /poison got a makeover. I'm not sure why I don't like traps but I've never found it very effective but somebody earlier in the thread suggested Dual Pistols and that might have some synergy with traps - so I've made a DP/Traps crupper just for the fun of it. Don't know how it'll do, but could be interesting. |
If you don't mind giving up a few set bonuses you can slot a Dark/DP with more procs than any other character and either increase your personal damage output or mitigating effects or debuffs (Achilles heel can go in empty clips, Ragnarok chance for KD can go in Bullet Rain). You can also tailor your interface to what ever you feel is lacking.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I would go with Zombie Man's Dark/?? defender suggestion but I would add in the caveat that you could take DP as your secondary, use Chemical Ammo, and further increase the -Damage you can put out.
If you don't mind giving up a few set bonuses you can slot a Dark/DP with more procs than any other character and either increase your personal damage output or mitigating effects or debuffs (Achilles heel can go in empty clips, Ragnarok chance for KD can go in Bullet Rain). You can also tailor your interface to what ever you feel is lacking. |
I'm just looking a that too... Zombie's dark misma is interesting. I was leaning towards a DM/Rad fender... I'm thinking that Rad will allow me to eat through defence and then leave Dark Miasma to just swallow all his other stats - but your notion of DM/DP is interesting. Wouldn't it make a better corruptor to eak out some extra damage?
Thelonious Monk
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I found Dark/Rad to be somewhat underperforming. The damage is pretty poor overall. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I'm just looking a that too... Zombie's dark misma is interesting. I was leaning towards a DM/Rad fender... I'm thinking that Rad will allow me to eat through defence and then leave Dark Miasma to just swallow all his other stats - but your notion of DM/DP is interesting. Wouldn't it make a better corruptor to eak out some extra damage?
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My Dark/Sonic was a dream though and was possibly the character I felt was most useful in an AV fight of any I've ever played.
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Yes...... but I thought you wanted the Ultimate Debuffer. That means a defender.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I'm just looking a that too... Zombie's dark misma is interesting. I was leaning towards a DM/Rad fender... I'm thinking that Rad will allow me to eat through defence and then leave Dark Miasma to just swallow all his other stats - but your notion of DM/DP is interesting. Wouldn't it make a better corruptor to eak out some extra damage?
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Yes...... but I thought you wanted the Ultimate Debuffer. That means a defender.
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True... but I think the evidence suggests DP isn't a huge debuff set, so in one sense it doesn't qualify already - but remains interesting.
Thelonious Monk
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Not necessarily.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Yes...... but I thought you wanted the Ultimate Debuffer. That means a defender.
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1) Not all debuffs are strictly better on defenders. A great example of this is cold domination, which puts out just as much -res and -regen (the important debuffs) as a defender.
2) The OP was mentioning running running 2-3 man TFs. Even with all the debuffs in the world, if you can't effectively leverage those debuffs yourself I would hardly call yourself the ultimate debuffer. If you compare a pure DPS and a sonic defender to the same Pure DPS and a fire corruptor, both using the same support sets, the pure DPS and the fire corr will finish the TF faster any day of the week. Simply put there will be more damage to take advantage of those debuffs by using a corruptor. Debuffs mean nothing if there is no damage to take advantage of them (-res is a damage multiplier, multipliers work best when the number you are multiplying is high).
On larger teams this gap closes, but that's not what the OP was talking about and even then I would say they'd be about even.
3) Damage in and of itself is mitigation. The faster things die, the less damage you will take, and the less time you have for the enemy to get lucky or blow through and defenses you have.
Also, lolDP.
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For myself I completely agree with this statement but I know others enjoy it.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Also, lolDP.
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Dark Miasma is better on a defender though. The question is if the extra damage out put is worth the loss of the debuff value. That's more an individual play style issue than anything else.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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True but it's the only ranged damage set that grants additional AoE -Damage which stacks nicely with both the -Damage and AoE resistance Aura in Dark Miasma.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
True... but I think the evidence suggests DP isn't a huge debuff set, so in one sense it doesn't qualify already - but remains interesting.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Dark/Poison/(Mace or Primal) Controller is looking really interesting.
Unslotted:
Venomous Gas + Weaken = -32.5% ToHit; -45% Dmg (+Secondary Effect debuffs)
Venomous Gas + Envenom = -40% Def; -48.75% Resis
N.Breath = -81.75% Recharge
Dark/ would top off any -ToHit plus:
Shadow Field + Poison Trap
Massive Fear/Terrorize
Pet Aggro Distraction x3
Mace would add another -18.75% to ST Resis (-67.50% approx ST Resis), -20% Def (-60% ST Def) and S/L/E Def on top of any ToHit debuffs you're using as protection.
Primal has Power Boost, 
. ...and a base 30% S/L resis to add to your -Dmg protection.
Then, you calculate in your slotting, any set bonuses and/or procs.
Void Judgement (-50% Dmg)
Paralytic or Gravitic Interface
Clarion Destiny
Storm Elemental Lore
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Dark/Poison/(Mace or Primal) Controller is looking really interesting.
Unslotted: Venomous Gas + Weaken = -32.5% ToHit; -45% Dmg (+Secondary Effect debuffs) Venomous Gas + Envenom = -40% Def; -48.75% Resis N.Breath = -81.75% Recharge Dark/ would top off any -ToHit plus: Shadow Field + Poison Trap Massive Fear/Terrorize Pet Aggro Distraction x3 Mace would add another -18.75% to ST Resis (-67.50% approx ST Resis), -20% Def (-60% ST Def) and S/L/E Def on top of any ToHit debuffs you're using as protection. Primal has Power Boost, . ...and a base 30% S/L resis to add to your -Dmg protection.Then, you calculate in your slotting, any set bonuses and/or procs. Void Judgement (-50% Dmg) Paralytic or Gravitic Interface Clarion Destiny Storm Elemental Lore |
OOOH!!!! I really like how you're thinking here Yogi...
I must make one!
Thelonious Monk
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You may want to double check the secondary numbers (what I listed was for the initial target; the surrounding targets are affected at reduced effect)|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
OOOH!!!! I really like how you're thinking here Yogi...
I must make one! |
Also, I'm not well versed on Secondary Effect debuffing (and I could be mistaken) but it looks like it does some additional major league chopping to Def (base or buff; I'm not sure).
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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If you are going to mention a SoA you'd actually be better off with huntsman/bane than spider. You get an extra -20% res from surveillance. And go with Mace mastery for shatter armor for better numbers and better uptime than arctic breath. Add in venom grenade and some Archilles heel procs and you'll be hitting -80% res pretty easy against a hard target along with all the team buffs. |
Originally Posted by Roderick
Crab Spider!
Almost all your attacks have -def, including one or two AoEs that are perfect homes for Achilles' Heel procs. Frenzy, being PBAoE, can take BOTH -Resist procs. Venom Grenade adds more -Resist. Go Leviathan for an epic to get Arctic Breath to apply MORE -Resist. Bile Spray is also nice for it's pure Toxic damage, which is rarely resisted. Several Interface Abilities carry some form of debuff, which can handily be stacked to their limits with all the AoE you can dish out. In addition, you can stack up to two each of Maneuvers, Tactics and Assault on your teammates. |
No -regen though so there are better things, it'd be very good, but not "ultimate" either way. Love my huntsman though and they bring a lot to a team.
Flash arrow -tohit is also unresistable so AV debuff resistance doesn't factor in there.
@Dremster Wrecking Crew / Guardian