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This. It's good advice when given less rudely and with the disclaimer that it is AV fight specific, but being an *** is being an *** regardless of the accuracy of the advice.|
Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
As for the argument over ST immobilizes vs. AoE immobilizes... First off, Reppu, you're being way too abrasive. Even if you believe you're telling the truth, the way you say it makes it such a bitter pill that others will tend to reject it offhandedly. In short, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I've seen you claim in another thread that this is just your communication style, but I think you need to learn what situations are appropriate for what conversation styles.
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That being said, for many the single target immob is skippable due to the circumstances that make it useful over the AE immob can be very spread out and infrequent. Not everyone enjoys/spends the majority of their time fighting AV's.
After some thought, I actually might just keep the ST immobilize. It does set up containment more quickly on those few tough targets (as well as not being negated by the Purple Triangles), and my primary complaint, the time it takes to do its damage, doesn't apply as much against those tough targets. And I do enough TFs and trials in general that it's worth taking for situations like that.
I love Dark Control's AOE Hold but some don't...and that's ok. It's not only amazing by itself but it is down right awesome with procs...much like Volcanic Gas.
In defense of Reppu's standpoint, the single target immobilize is a good damage power. In terms of damage per activation it's as good as some Blaster tier 1 attack after setting containment, and better in damage per endurance than some of the single target blasts in the APP/PPPs. Boomie has demonstrated with several builds in this forum what a controller with a focus on single target damage can do.
Of course, there is a huge logical leap from dealing damage with Shadowy Binds to being worthless without it. By the shear strength of Howling Twilight's -regen alone, you're already contributing a good deal. You could probably add another -100-150% by spamming Twilight Grasp. You've also got Tar Patch for -resist. That's far from worthless. Of course, you could do all that and contribute a little more damage.
Except not all AV's have regen levels that NEED to be crashed. To say they do is false. Also, the logic of 'you're doing enough just with Howling Twilight/Twilight Grasp's -Regen' is FLAWED logic! You can do MORE if you're also throwing in damage when nobody needs a heel, Howling Twilight is on cooldown, etc etc.
If you all can tell me one legitimate reason that, when you're not applying one of your debuffs, that you CAN'T be dealing damage? Let me know. Please. I'm obviously playing Controllers wrong if I'm adding in to dealing damage on Bosses/EBs/AV's when my controls are in place/debuffs are used or are on cooldown.
Because I seem to be under the dumb opinion that the ultimate debuff is KILLING SOMETHING DEAD.
Read the last line.
Did I not say "you could do all that and contribute a little more damage"? Are you really so eager for an argument that you don't recognize when someone agrees with you?
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Originally Posted by Reppu
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Unless you have an extremely busy secondary (Hint: None are that busy), you have NO reason not to be dealing as much damage as possible. .... |
Have you ever played with Kinetics before?
Seriously just solo'ing and I could spam all my kinetics powers and never attack (unless I get -rchg debuffed).
Between Siphon Speed, Siphon Power, Fulcrum Shift, Transfusion, Transference and then buffing people (granted that's a lot easier/faster now with the AoE buffage) you're busy!
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The single target immob can be useful to keep AVs from running around (at least, the ones not in incarnate trials). I have a defender that took the elec app mostly for the single target immob for preventing that.
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Assuming I was singling you out... why? I'll make sure to note "By the way, thank you ketch for agreeing". Sorry.
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Originally Posted by ketch
Read the last line.
Did I not say "you could do all that and contribute a little more damage"? Are you really so eager for an argument that you don't recognize when someone agrees with you? |
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I love the sentiment of this post but, frankly, when a thread is started from a point of 'what is skippable?' or 'what is the best?' these sort of responses are more likely to happen, as people will state (what they believe to be) absolutes from their experience and referential framework. In short, if you ask a question rooted in subjectivity, you're going to get subjective responses.|
Originally Posted by Demonic_Spark
Geez guys, bring it down a level, when it is all said and done, almost none of you guys even play the same way. Some of you guys are known for your AV soloing, other, pure teaming.
When it is all said and done, let the build fit the player that is all that really matters when it is all said and done. Myself personally I will more then likely skip black hole and try to keep the other stuff, but heck I got like what 2 (or 3) builds to play with, I think there is room to play around with. As for the single Immbo, I used to not take mines at first for the longest, but that came form playing in the days before containment, and people seemed to only want you on the team for your secondary...man how things have changed huh? Now I pick mines up not only for setting up containment but to keep bosses/AVs in place while debuffing them. With that said if someone wants to no pick up their ST Immob that is on them, no skin off my back nor am I mad at them, heck I am too busy locking down, debuffing, and healing to even really care! |
However, that doesn't mean the responses have to be rude, patronising or stated as absolutes. It's amazing how the tone of a thought or message changes when commenced with 'I believe...' or 'I think...'
Back on topic, though, I found this combo to be incredibly hard to plan (particularly without Mids to help). I've done a 'mud map' and am slowly levelling my character, and will just respec him (or just build 2) when Mids is updated and he's hit 50.
Due to my playstyle, my rough build plan is very much built around a balance of pets/dmg/status/debuff/buff-heal, but they're all inter-related with my twin goals of survivability and killing things. I solo most of the time (as my gaming buddy is half-way round the world and I'm a villain player on at off-peak), so building for team play just doesn't work for me.
I'm sure if someone was to inspect my build, they'd probably dislike it and exclude me from team (I've been told more than once that Controllers have to control, and please don't think you'll be invited to my team). I use the 'control' (or 'status') powers, buff/heal and debuff powers in my trollers' build to assist in keeping my character alive and the enemies dead. It's as simple as that for me.
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In my original post, first please notice that I said what "I" would be doing. If you want to do something different, that's your choice. I acknowledged that the single target Immob is a good damage power. But leveling up on a team-focused controller, I find that there are plenty of things to do rather than focus on single target damage. My damage-focused teammates can usually do damage much faster than I can.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Why would you skip any of those? Don't be a turd.
And I do think you're all wrong. What are you doing on an AV besides dealing damage when Purple Triangles are up? If you skipped the ST Immobilize, you have to use the AoE Immobilize. Yeah. Have fun with endurance cost and really poor damage you HAVE to use everytime it's off cooldown. There is NO logical reason to ever skip the ST Immobilizes on an >Controller<. Dominator sure. Controller inexcusable. There is no power I can see from Aux Pools or the like that would outweigh the benefits of the ST Immobilize. Because being able to ST Immobilize > Hold > APP/PPP Blast > Repeat is how you're contributing against a big, bulky, impossible to hold target. Unless you have an extremely busy secondary (Hint: None are that busy), you have NO reason not to be dealing as much damage as possible. You hit Fearsome Stare, you hit your AoE immobilize, you use HEart of Darkness if you really want? Then you blast the singles down and mix in your AoE immobilize/patron/power AoEs for flavour. You are always dealing damage and you always should unless a priority sparks. Do not skip the ST Immobilize for anything BUT the AoE Immobilize if you HAVE to drop THAT many powers. And you honestly shouldn't need to. Between dropping Shadow Field ( You don't need it you have Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness), Soul Absorption for now, Fade for now, and Black Hole? You have plenty of room to weasel around. |
No offense, but I have played lots and lots of controllers, and I've generally been pretty effective at it. Many of them skip the single target Immob. Your "my way or the highway" attitude fails to take into account varying playstyles.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
To Reppu, I tend to use guy as an androgynous way of describing someone so I meant no disrespect.
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I agree that it's a good damage power hence why I said what I did in my previous post(not directed at you Ketch). Unless I had an extremely tight build and I couldn't take both the ST and the AoE immobilize I'd take the ST one on every build except fire(unless of course I was AV soloing on the fire build). I'm more prone to skipping the AoE hold before I'd skip the immobilize TBH. |
Originally Posted by ketch
In defense of Reppu's standpoint, the single target immobilize is a good damage power. In terms of damage per activation it's as good as some Blaster tier 1 attack after setting containment, and better in damage per endurance than some of the single target blasts in the APP/PPPs. Boomie has demonstrated with several builds in this forum what a controller with a focus on single target damage can do.
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As far as my elec/cold is concerned, even though I may have skipped chain fences I still have decent crowd control. I only say decent because I can't hold whole spawns in place after they start running from sleet BUT they will all be debuffed and end drained before they make it out of sleet's range. I sometimes miss the immobilize but I still down things safely and at a decent clip and still provide support for the team.
In the end it's all personal preference on how you chose what powers you take and it doesn't matter what anyone else says.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
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I fully support 'to each his own', but when I feel something is bad advice, I will point it out.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
In my original post, first please notice that I said what "I" would be doing. If you want to do something different, that's your choice. I acknowledged that the single target Immob is a good damage power. But leveling up on a team-focused controller, I find that there are plenty of things to do rather than focus on single target damage. My damage-focused teammates can usually do damage much faster than I can.
No offense, but I have played lots and lots of controllers, and I've generally been pretty effective at it. Many of them skip the single target Immob. Your "my way or the highway" attitude fails to take into account varying playstyles. |
Also, you largely play Illusions, don't you? No Immobilize to take. But, that's not the point at all.
This is an opinionated thread, and nobody should stress an absolute. As I stressed too, it's like my opinion. Thusly "I think" was in most of my posts.
Obviously someone did not ever play /kinetics at all. I can spam kin powers til the end of the world and be much, much more effective than spamming a poor 30.59 unenhanced dmg ST imm in every game situation.
Obviously someone is doing it wrong. If you can't balance using kins buff/debuffs and controls and damage from your primary then kin is not for you. Since the buff changes kin isn't as busy as it used to be. Before anyone asks yes I have played a kin, I have two at lvl50.
Elec/Cold Troller AV/Pylon/GM/TF/SF Soloing Antics
everytime...he gets me everytime.... DAMN U BOOMIE
-- _Ilr_Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Back on topic, (nice thread hi-jack btw)
My personal thoughts on this one, based on playing into the low 20's so far, is that ALL of the Darkness Control powers are useful to me at this point, haven't gotten to black hole, and I actually have used Fade situationally. Although I did skip Blackhole on another toon after playing it, so I likely will this time...(I just don't see a use for it...)...but I digress...
I would say play through up to the point of your respec and take everything in the sets except maybe black hole...and see what YOU like...as it will be YOUR playstyle. I determined this to be the best course of action playing Warshades, as if you ask for advice on a 'shade, you will get advice based on how SOMEONE ELSE likes to play their Warshade...so that is typically my fashion of doing things. YMMV...but some people actually like powers that a consensus majority on the forums do not...(keep in mind we are about 1% of the players on this game)
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Uh, of my 34 level 50 characters, about 14 of them are controllers. I have quite a few other controller characters who are not yet 50. I have at least one of every primary at 50 (except Dark). A few of them were built to solo, and those have the single target Immob. Most of them don't have it. Most of them do decent damage without it.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I fully support 'to each his own', but when I feel something is bad advice, I will point it out.
Also, you largely play Illusions, don't you? No Immobilize to take. But, that's not the point at all. This is an opinionated thread, and nobody should stress an absolute. As I stressed too, it's like my opinion. Thusly "I think" was in most of my posts. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I think it is just the way you put it that has folks bothered. Instead of describing someone else's opinion as "bad advice" when many others hold the same opinion, why not simply state that you "feel strongly" that taking the single target Immob is important? Describing someone else's opinion in such authoritative tones is just asking for a flame war.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I fully support 'to each his own', but when I feel something is bad advice, I will point it out.
Also, you largely play Illusions, don't you? No Immobilize to take. But, that's not the point at all. This is an opinionated thread, and nobody should stress an absolute. As I stressed too, it's like my opinion. Thusly "I think" was in most of my posts. |
To discount my opinion and that of many others when you don't know the level of my experience comes off as a bit arrogant. Yes, I wrote an Illusion/Rad guide that is pretty popular. But I also wrote an Earth/Rad guide which was for a team-focused controller. I've taken two Plant, two Earth, an Ice, three Fire and an Elec controllers up to 50 and a few beyond that. Only about 4 of them took the single target Immob. So I think I have enough experiece to disagree with your assertion that skipping the single target immob is "bad advice."
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Hey man I already said this, get your own routine! |
Originally Posted by Waylorn
Obviously someone did not ever play /kinetics at all. I can spam kin powers til the end of the world and be much, much more effective than spamming a poor 30.59 unenhanced dmg ST imm in every game situation.
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<3 Kinetics.
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For dealing damage, it is. And that's all I have to say on it.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
I think it is just the way you put it that has folks bothered. Instead of describing someone else's opinion as "bad advice" when many others hold the same opinion, why not simply state that you "feel strongly" that taking the single target Immob is important? Describing someone else's opinion in such authoritative tones is just asking for a flame war.
To discount my opinion and that of many others when you don't know the level of my experience comes off as a bit arrogant. Yes, I wrote an Illusion/Rad guide that is pretty popular. But I also wrote an Earth/Rad guide which was for a team-focused controller. I've taken two Plant, two Earth, an Ice, three Fire and an Elec controllers up to 50 and a few beyond that. Only about 4 of them took the single target Immob. So I think I have enough experiece to disagree with your assertion that skipping the single target immob is "bad advice." |
Actually aside from the Black Hole power...
I actualy am plannig to keep all the powers including the single Target Immobolize...
And my reasoning isnt for damage yes thats important....but i want to stay as a controller.
When i play i dont just sit there and focus on one target...even on trials i am not focused on one target....I focus on everything...
So that means i may use some powers in one place...switch targets and use my powers somewhere else....
Sure I can use an Area of Effect Immobolize or Hold but the ability to switch to a drasticaly different target is important to me as a controller.
When i hit a group i dont always make everything get immobolized...i dont think anyone else gets 100% on that either all the time...and so that extra immobolize is important to me.
Also on those monsters and archvillains....holds are nto going to cut the mustard...they are not going to be held allthe time....but they will get immobolized...and i am going to make sure they stay immobolized....so that Archviallains like Katie are not going to FLy away and make everyone chase her for just one example....or how about Nosferatu that a bunch of people whine about how he runs.....he doesnt run from me....he wishes he could.,,,but i dont let him...
So...thats why i am keeping that single target Immobolize...I dont know how anyone else plays.....sounds like on teams a bunch of people dont help much when the teams really need it....but thats just what it sounds like form the posts about needing more damage over control...and skipping a single target Immobolize.
Its like people forget....you can switch targets....and heck even bind the keys to the important ones...
target_next
target_near
and make macros for the next important ones that change allthe time: target_custom_next
All,
We welcome threads discussing powers and power sets but the tone of this thread has been less than awesome. Keep it on track or I'll have to close or remove the thread.
Thanks,
Mod 19
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I agree. |
Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
Actually aside from the Black Hole power...
I actualy am plannig to keep all the powers including the single Target Immobolize... And my reasoning isnt for damage yes thats important....but i want to stay as a controller. When i play i dont just sit there and focus on one target...even on trials i am not focused on one target....I focus on everything... So that means i may use some powers in one place...switch targets and use my powers somewhere else.... Sure I can use an Area of Effect Immobolize or Hold but the ability to switch to a drasticaly different target is important to me as a controller. When i hit a group i dont always make everything get immobolized...i dont think anyone else gets 100% on that either all the time...and so that extra immobolize is important to me. Also on those monsters and archvillains....holds are nto going to cut the mustard...they are not going to be held allthe time....but they will get immobolized...and i am going to make sure they stay immobolized....so that Archviallains like Katie are not going to FLy away and make everyone chase her for just one example....or how about Nosferatu that a bunch of people whine about how he runs.....he doesnt run from me....he wishes he could.,,,but i dont let him... So...thats why i am keeping that single target Immobolize...I dont know how anyone else plays.....sounds like on teams a bunch of people dont help much when the teams really need it....but thats just what it sounds like form the posts about needing more damage over control...and skipping a single target Immobolize. Its like people forget....you can switch targets....and heck even bind the keys to the important ones... target_next target_near and make macros for the next important ones that change allthe time: target_custom_next |
Yes, there are alot of people setting up their controllers mainly for teaming. I balance mine out always, even though I have one team build, and another solo/pvp build.
Keeping the st immob is always good, even if buffing/debuffing is the priority. It only takes a split second to click, and it rechs faster than all other controller powers which is why its the first attack available.
On my f/k, after respec'ing her many times, I finally gave up RoF to fit in another power. So until I need to give up one power for another, I personally will be keeping Shadowy Binds with its 2 secs rech.
The only powers I have skipped on my 42 d/d troller is Possess, Fearsome Stare, Haunt, Soul Absorption, and Black Hole. I like Fearsome Stare but not sure if Fear counts for Containment.
Btw, I like Fade. It only lasts for 15 secs (adding about 30 to my def), but it only takes a minute or so to rech. I hit it when near at least a few other teammates and it helps enough to keep it in my arsenal. Of course its in my first tray.
adapting is more fun to me than complaining about change
showing your repertoire proves your true range ;^}
As for the argument over ST immobilizes vs. AoE immobilizes... First off, Reppu, you're being way too abrasive. Even if you believe you're telling the truth, the way you say it makes it such a bitter pill that others will tend to reject it offhandedly. In short, you aren't doing yourself any favors. I've seen you claim in another thread that this is just your communication style, but I think you need to learn what situations are appropriate for what conversation styles.
Now, here's my own answer. I soloed my way through alignment missions and such to make my controller into a Rogue, and I found it very useful for damage dealing. However, I'll probably respec out of it later and replace it with an APP blast. And as others said, if you're primarily teaming, you probably have better things to take. It depends overall on your playstyle and what you generally do. And I'm saying this as one who put damage into all of her Mind Controller's single target controls/attacks as well as Terrify. (I frankenslotted for both damage and control using Damage/Mez Hami's).
As for the AoE immobilize, it's fairly endurance intensive and not particularly high damage, but it will start to really shine once you get an APP AoE attack to take advantage of its containment and then add on Interface procs and the like. And I probably should get into using it with Darkest Night and the like. I held off on taking it in my leveling build due to what I was primarily doing at the time, but it's probably about time to take it.
I'll reserve any comments on the AoE hold until I'm high enough level to take it and slot it decently to evaluate it. However, I'll say that right now I'm not really feeling like I'm hurting for control. I do wonder, however, how well it procs. From the looks of the mechanisms it likely won't be quite as potent with procs as Earth Control's AoE hold.
I stand by my earlier answer that the most truly skippable power is Black Hole (and, temporarily, the two new powers in Dark Affinity). Too bad I took Fade because I thought it made its way onto the Live server in the buffed state. I'll just have to wait for it to become more useful.