Blaster Issues - Sniping


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Originally Posted by Eldagore View Post
lol. I dont care. if I have learned anything in life, it is that none of my ideas are actually my idea because I am not in a position where my voice is loud enough to hear, and the human race in general is to competitive and selfish to actually allow for any type of true collective think tank to reach it's potential. Such is why change and improvment takes so long.
Its not like I was going to physically take the brain cells it was embedded in. You were going to get to keep those.


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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
So you're saying Fire Breath, Psychic Scream, Tenebrous Tentacles, Fistful of Arrows, Buckshot, Empty Clips, Energy Torrent, Electron Haze, Howl, Siren's Song, and Frost Breath are all bad because they aggro enemies. God forbid.
Well it depends on how you are going about playing and what enemy groups you are facing. The problem is chain aggroing the entire spawn. As an example the blaster CAN NEVER get enough range in Siren's Song with range enhancements to be outside of perception range. Even if you take /Nrg and use boost range. (Adding in Alpha Cardiac into the mix does give you enough range) That means that you either have to have mitigation from an outside source like inspirations, defense set bonuses or team buffs.

If you are solo you don't get team buffs, if you have a primary with long animations or that is single target focused insps don't drop as fast as you use them. That leaves IO set bonuses as the only reliable method of mitigation. To add insult to injury if you get mezzed during the mob's alpha you can be dead before you can trigger another AoE power and you'll be long dead trying to survive using only 3 powers if you are out of break frees. Which brings us back in a vicious circle of why blasters under perform.

Your blasters may be able to survive just fine. Most of mine can (depending on power sets, enemy type, and difficulty, and my character's development in the IO and incarnate departments) but the aggregate blaster of all players in the CoX multiverse CAN NOT and never has been able to and that is the measuring stick for balance.

My personal metric is inspiration use. My blasters use roughly 6 times the inspirations of any other AT I play just to get slightly less survivability. I don't get to use them for anything but mitigation and the offensive ones that do drop I have to convert into insps that provide mitigation.

When I play one of my scrappers and I pretend to be a blaster and eat the candy at the same speed I can vastly outperform the blaster simply because I don't need any break frees, I need far fewer awakens, far fewer respites, and I can get away with the occasional purple or orange and combine all the rest into reds and blow the blaster completely out of the water as far as DPS is concerned.


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Regarding Sniper fixes, I hope it goes to all ATs who have a snipe and not just Blasters. You haven't sniped until you've experienced a Stalker using a snipe

Snipers for Stalkers:
Mace Beam - 8sec cast
Zapp - 7.33sec cast
Moonbeam - 7.33sec cast

At the very least for Stalkers and Scrappers, please half the animation time so it's on par with other Sniper attacks, haha.


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Ok for me this is an easy one:

1) Increase the base damage to the point where, with 3 Damage SOs and either Aim or Build Up you can 1-shot a Lt. I say aim or build up since sone sets don't have one of these and I wouldn't want those sets shut out.

2) Increase the base recharge time to something insane like 45 seconds or something. Enough to prevent sniping your way to 50 easily but not so much that you can't hit every other spawn or every spawn with good slotting.

3) Increase the base range for PCs only so that they at least equal enemy snipers. I once had a Snipe with a range IO in it and the Crey snipers STILL had more range than me. Plain wrong...

In a team Blasters would do what they do now: Damage. Solo they would use their niche, which is Damage, to counter Mezzing by taking out the enemies with a pre-emptive strike. Mezzing Bosses would still be a challenge as they should be.


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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr View Post
1) Increase the base damage to the point where, with 3 Damage SOs and either Aim or Build Up you can 1-shot a Lt. I say aim or build up since sone sets don't have one of these and I wouldn't want those sets shut out.
Your solution for AR/ when paired with /dev or /dark is what then?


-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

 

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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Your solution for AR/ when paired with /dev or /dark is what then?
Increase the bonus from Targeting Drone?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Its not like I was going to physically take the brain cells it was embedded in. You were going to get to keep those.
Certainly not. I was just commenting on our culture where self promotion is so ingrained that it holds back improvment. Would it really be so hard to acknowledge "hey this guy had this great idea"?

99% of the time, the answer is yes, it is too hard because said person is not self, and self is always more important then the end results. if there is nothing in it to gain for self, then there is little point in "revealing" an idea.

I have been forced to live this culture in real life to many times to count. However, this is just a stupid video game, so i honestly do not care who takes credit for my ideas. I am simply pleased when an improvment based on them makes it into the game I enjoy. So, even in this instance, there is somthing in it for me in the end result.

So, feel free to "steal" my ideas. So long as it makes it into the game for me to enjoy I really do not care.


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Posted

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Originally Posted by Eldagore View Post
Certainly not. I was just commenting on our culture where self promotion is so ingrained that it holds back improvment. Would it really be so hard to acknowledge "hey this guy had this great idea"?

99% of the time, the answer is yes, it is too hard because said person is not self, and self is always more important then the end results. if there is nothing in it to gain for self, then there is little point in "revealing" an idea.

I have been forced to live this culture in real life to many times to count. However, this is just a stupid video game, so i honestly do not care who takes credit for my ideas. I am simply pleased when an improvment based on them makes it into the game I enjoy. So, even in this instance, there is somthing in it for me in the end result.

So, feel free to "steal" my ideas. So long as it makes it into the game for me to enjoy I really do not care.
Changed my mind. I'm taking the brain cells also.


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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Your solution for AR/ when paired with /dev or /dark is what then?
Devices has Targeting Drone which gives Snipes a damage bonus anyway. As for /Dark, ya got me there. However I don't see having the 3-slotted damage of a snipe being great enough to drop a Lt without Aim, Build Up or some red insps. At that point I think it would be TOO good and the Devs would nerf something else to compensate.

My point is that many Blaster players are beefing about the one thing we can't get around until Incarnate status; Mez. We could carry a tray of break frees but that's extremely limited and boring. Or we can build for Defense and hope not to get hit but that tasks the build a lot normally. However if the typical Blaster Snipe could drop the Mezzing Lt in one shot then the Blaster is simply doing what he does best...blasting. I feel that asking for more than that would be considered greedy


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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr View Post
Devices has Targeting Drone which gives Snipes a damage bonus anyway.
To clarify, AR's snipe is the only one that's given extra damage by having Targeting Drone active. Not snipes in general.

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However if the typical Blaster Snipe could drop the Mezzing Lt in one shot then the Blaster is simply doing what he does best...blasting. I feel that asking for more than that would be considered greedy
Honestly, I think snipes need improvement completely outside of the blaster 'problem'. They're just not a good power pick in general. Aside from that though, the idea of fixing blaster's complaint about mezing through their snipe doesn't really work since there are several blaster primaries without snipes at all.


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I personally don't take snipes as they are now. Anyone who BU/AIMs before using a snipe is indeed wasting too much time of those buffs, compared to what could be accomplished with AoEs and a single target attack chain. Anyone who actually uses a snipe after combat has started is seriously wasting time. I like to think of things in tiers. There't the tier1, and tier2 blasts, usually at level1 and level2. Then most sets have a specific tier3 blast, with some sets like Dark Blast and Elec Blast being kindof oddball. The sniper SHOULD BECOME something we can all agree is the tier4 blast. Absolutely devastating and has the bonus of being much longer range, a power you WANT to use every time it's up like Blaze. But it should still be interruptable and have a recharge befitting of a similar brutal attack, like Seismic Smash. I think 30 seconds would be a good number, so that even godlike Min/Max builds with Ageless wouldn't be able to really make it part of their regular attack chain.


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I wanted to like snipes when I started playing. So I used them in play and realized how godawful they really are. Now I am happy to have powers in sets that I can skip without thinking about it because there are pool powers I want to help with survivability. I wouldn't mind if snipes stopped being the instant skip powers that they are now, but I can't say I know what would get me to rethink the position. The only set I've settled on taking them is Beam Rifle because of the guarunteed spread effect, but even then the power sits unused a lot. The interupt is what ruins snipes for me, I think (I avoid the medicine pool for the same reason). I realize that's intrinsic to the role of a snipe but as long as that exists I can't see using the power in combat and as an opener/puller, I'll just use a single target attack that I can immediately follow up with something else instead of being rooted for 8 seconds.


 

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Originally Posted by Sir Hextor View Post
I wanted to like snipes when I started playing. So I used them in play and realized how godawful they really are. Now I am happy to have powers in sets that I can skip without thinking about it because there are pool powers I want to help with survivability. I wouldn't mind if snipes stopped being the instant skip powers that they are now, but I can't say I know what would get me to rethink the position. The only set I've settled on taking them is Beam Rifle because of the guarunteed spread effect, but even then the power sits unused a lot. The interupt is what ruins snipes for me, I think (I avoid the medicine pool for the same reason). I realize that's intrinsic to the role of a snipe but as long as that exists I can't see using the power in combat and as an opener/puller, I'll just use a single target attack that I can immediately follow up with something else instead of being rooted for 8 seconds.
About that, the beam rifle snipe. i think it is really odd how they designed that power. I draw two conclusions, niether of which may be true of course...

First- perhaps the dev team simply does not understand how players want to use snipes, or how they are being used in play. beam rifle snipe has that spread effect, but it outranges the other powers of the set, including disintegrate. so, one could presume the intended use is actually in combat- such that the effect can actually be used which totally goes against common use in actual play.

OR

second- the devs already have some kind of idea on how they want snipes to work in the future, and designed this power ahaed of these changes so when they do come about, the power will already be designed to work correctly with the spread effect.

Only time will tell which theory holds any water, or of course perhaps neither does.


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I'd love the second to be true, but I think we can all agree the part about them misunderstanding how we utilize the power is far more likely


 

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I find snipes useful on defenders and corrs because they are an extra attack. Getting that high damage extra attack at the start of a fight makes it much easier to finish the fight with a few cycles of the attack chain.

However, blasters have plenty of attacks so an extra attack is meaningless. A snipe therefore must have at least one of 3 effects: massive damage, a buff/debuff it triggers, or not aggro.

Massive damage is nice, take out an lt with one hit kind of damage. DPA does not matter if that is your opener. It is not good for extended fights but is nice for opening fights solo. Situational but useful.

Not aggroing has too many issues. You would need a long recharge so you can't just defeat a spawn with your non-aggroing attack. If it does not do a massive amount of damage as well, it is just a bit of extra damage to start a fight. It will still be skipped.

Buff/debuff can be almost anything so it is almost certainly the best option.
* use for range finding, gives a buff to range so you can follow up with other attacks at range
* use for 'marking' a foe so you get a bonus to hit and damage against that target. Makes it nice for taking out bosses potentially
* confuse effect since they don't know where the attack is coming from. Does not seem to fit thematically really
* massive damage buff ala the existing blaster buff per attack. Make it a mini-build up post attack


 

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I've had a few ideas.

-AoE slow as the mob is "suppressed". Adds to the survivability and it keeps the idea that for a blaster, range is defence.
-Chance for instant defeat on mobs lt and lower. Use it for picking out the annoying enemies such as sappers etc.
-I like the idea of marking an enemy, especially if it could get one of those giant target signs over their head from TPN so others can focus fire.


 

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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Double their recharge, triple their damage. Boom they are fixed. They are used as an every spawn opener, they'll one shot a lieutenant without wasting Aim and Build Up, and they are still not likely to be used when the battle comes closer.

No one is likely to use them as their only attack and stay permanently at a safe range as that would make leveling slower than ??/dev.

This. especially the damage increase. Not sure you even need the recharge increase.


 

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Originally Posted by Mister Gerald View Post
So far, all the suggestions I'm seeing here amount to: make snipes do something other than, you know, snipe. Good luck with that. Oh, and tripling the damage so as not to "waste" Aim and Build Up? People would still use Aim and Build Up on such a power. I know I would.

Personally? I like snipes just fine the way they are, long activation times and all (also a datamine point).
I love Snipes but the fact is they are not an efficient power pick at the current damage level. And that makes me cry.


 

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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei View Post
Is the only answer to these questions these days MOAR power creep. Yup, it appears so.
You make a good point; power creep can be adanger.

But....if Snipes are not doing enough damage in the first place, boosting the damage is a fix, not a power creep.


 

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Originally Posted by Umbra View Post
You make a good point; power creep can be adanger.

But....if Snipes are not doing enough damage in the first place, boosting the damage is a fix, not a power creep.
It's only power creep, if other ATs get increases in power to keep them ahead of blasters or if done improperly. The "Fixes" for /fire are a case where instead of addressing the problems, holes in the mez protection (confuse, terrorize, kb) with the set, they turned it into an overpowered farmer with nothing else coming close while still leaving it with glaring weaknesses.


 

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Originally Posted by Umbra View Post
You make a good point; power creep can be adanger.

But....if Snipes are not doing enough damage in the first place, boosting the damage is a fix, not a power creep.
Power creep is not a problem for Blasters because:

1. Blasters are supposed to do unambiguously more damage than anyone else, having traded away everything else. Anyone else who tries to say they should do a comparable amount as Blasters is simply wrong. There is no way for creep to occur here on the Blaster side of the equation.

2. Blasters have been datamined to underperform in the past, and are the *only* archetype to have been stated to underperform as an entire archetype - meaning every powerset combination, every teaming situation, every level range. That means by definition they are the only archetype that can claim to objectively have insufficient power. Power creep is therefore irrelevant to them.

When everything else does better - and they objectively do regardless of anecdotes to the contrary - and blasters do worse - and anecdotes to the contrary are equally irrelevant - then saying that "power creep" should make us cautious about addressing Blaster problems is like saying global warming should make us cautious about adding more subscribers to the game.

I know I'm not going to convince everyone that blaster problems are real. I know I can't convince everyone the Earth is not flat. All I care about is objectively proving that they need help, objectively demonstrating precisely what help they need, and working with anyone who has good ideas to contribute in that regard. The people that think this is a fools errand can continue to think that, because it is not one of my objectives to reduce the number of such people that exist. I don't know what that number is; I don't care what that number is. What I do know is that, as someone who indulges in them myself from time to time, the case I eventually make will be invulnerable to quips.

In case anyone's not been keeping track, I've already started laying my cards on the table: I've discussed in the last two months blaster damage modifiers, blaster damage buff powers, blaster DPA, blaster range, blaster secondaries, blaster snipes, blaster nukes, blaster mitigation, blaster performance, blaster archetype popularity, blaster design, blaster tactics, blaster build options, blaster comparable power comparisons, blaster mechanics, blaster conceptual evolution, blasters in the modern game. The case I intend to make is not that by one specific viewpoint blasters need help. The case I intend to make, and the blaster archetype helps out by actually being this deficient, is that by all possible objective viewpoints blasters need help. That the only evidence that can be brought forth that blasters don't need help is "my blaster is awesome" and "I've been around for a long time and I know blasters are fine."

If that's what the competition is, then there is no competition. *Every* angle I've looked at says Blasters have not been treated correctly. Even things that appear to be unrelated. For example, its sometimes said, in reference to other design discussions, that mitigation is easy to get in the invention system, but damage is hard. For something that is often stated, its very obviously false. Anyone who tries to get more damage with an invention build knows the first obvious way to do that: get recharge. The invention system is loaded with it.

Recharge can't possible benefit melee characters more than blasters offensively, can it?

Actually, it can. But those calculations aren't finished yet.

Incidentally, I'm waiting for someone to come up with an *actual* objective reason why Blaster performance should be constrained to what it is now, and so far no one has. I'm actually encouraged by the fact that "power creep" is one of the few counter-arguments of any objective nature being made. Its at least an objectively measurable thing; its also in the case of blasters objectively dismissable as being not applicable. That's what's encouraging.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Incidentally, I'm waiting for someone to come up with an *actual* objective reason why Blaster performance should be constrained to what it is now, and so far no one has. I'm actually encouraged by the fact that "power creep" is one of the few counter-arguments of any objective nature being made. Its at least an objectively measurable thing; its also in the case of blasters objectively dismissable as being not applicable. That's what's encouraging.
Actually I think I have. Blaster performance is the way it is so that Defenders have someone to defend. I honestly think that's the part of the teaming concept the original devs had that the current crop of devs still cling to. Even though they have abandoned the teaming/team support (ie: difficult to solo) concepts of all the other ATs.


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-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
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Posted

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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Actually I think I have. Blaster performance is the way it is so that Defenders have someone to defend. I honestly think that's the part of the teaming concept the original devs had that the current crop of devs still cling to. Even though they have abandoned the teaming/team support (ie: difficult to solo) concepts of all the other ATs.
Indeed, blasters are supposed to rely on teammates.

I am not even convinced the Blaster problem should be fixed. Their current design may be desirable to too many to change it.

Is it wrong to have a team reliant AT like blasters?


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
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What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Posted

I absolutely love Eldagores idea for snipes. Im going to add a few others into the mix and my own:

Four stage fix for snipes:
A: A damage buff to enable a basic SO slotted snipe to eradicate a minion or bring a lieut to 20-30%.
B: A range buff to the few attacks following after the snipe.
C: A secondary effect that usually generates no agro (the snipe itself still generates agro) (more on this below)
D: A weak AoE fear effect if the target is reduced to 0 Hp. (50% chance fear for even minions)

C cont:
This would be, as specified by Eldagore, unique to each set, my own ideas include:
Archery: Disorient. "Gotta pull the arrowhead out"
Assault rifle: 150% kb. (thus reliably KB bosses too) "Sniper! keep your head down!"
Dark blast: Extra strong fear effect. "It came from the darkness!!"
Electric: Static cage effect. "Zap!"
Energy: Extra damage to all within 6ft + knockdown. "Bkboom!"
Fire: Superior to the other sniper powers, but DoT. "Ow-Ow-Ow-Ow---dead"
Psionic lance v1: Less damage, better recharge, no interrupt, extra cast time, yes it wouldnt be a snipe anymore, just a semi-snipe.
or
Psionic lance v2: Mezmerize. "Zap! ZzzZZZzzzz"
Radiation blast: Make each bolt in the volley do incrementally more damage. "zap-Zap-ZAP"

For some types and situations 100% downing a minion would be the most beneficial, fx for the fear effect.
Others would prefer hitting a lieut, to cause a Mezz or to make him killable in a second attack, wasting buildup would actually become worth it to make the lieut one-shottable (thanks to the AoE fear effect accompanying a sniper-kill).
And yet others would prefer hitting the boss to layer on additional mezz and/or damage.

In effect this would enable each blaster powerset a new use for their snipe beyond just damage and make snipes a notable selling point for people to take Blasters. It is in my mind important that a snipe does not become a blaster version of Assassin strikes, the damage could be comparable, but it should never exceed the assassin strike.

Finally, it is my personal opinion that Snipes be removed from corruptor and defender powersets, in my mind it makes litle sense for combat-(support) and (near)total-support heroes to be given powers that require that they distance themselves from where they can do the most good. It would be cool to see them with Mezz's or build up's that improve heals/buffs instead.


My own opinion is that the Blaster archetype itself is not underperforming, but a number powers within the archetype that are. When i browse the powersets available to them I see a definite lack of the all-consuming/all-tanking/all-buffing powers that are made available to other archetypes, usually within their secondary sets.

If we compare some secondary Blaster sets to the sets Corruptors gain access to or Scrappers I see a strange effect happen:

Early blaster secondaries invariably include melee attacks and single target immobilises which are rarely useful later and never absolutely neccessary.
As opposed to early scrapper tank powers and Corruptor heals/debuffs which usually remain core powers throughout the game.
Many blasters see lots of skipped powers in this area.

Mid level blaster secondaries include lots of actually beneficiary powers. Build up, Targeting drone and Ice patch come to mind. Powers that help the primary damage dealer in the game actually deal damage and/or escape reprisal.

Late level blasters have lots of secondary powers that are simply ignored, even the penultimate and ultimate powers within sets are quite often only "arguably useful"
Power such as Time bomb & Gun drone, Power boost & Range Boost, Hot feet and more.
Even the powers which ARE useful at this stage pale in comparison to a corruptor's, Fallout, Fulcrum shift or a Chrono shift. I'd take a character with speedboost over a character with Gun drone anytime!

In other words, many secondary blaster powersets have a bad transition from earlygame to lategame, and many lategame secondary powers deliver disappointing results.

Not to mention that Blasters could use a slight (4-8%) increase in overall damage.

p.s

I am aware that many dont agree with my point on early melee blaster powers and immobilises becoming useless, but the way I think of it:
Many have fond memories of targetted immobilises saving their *** in pre-20 solo combat, but after that most enemy groups tend to mount fearsome ranged firepower of their own, and at later levels time is better spent casting something that does more damage. Not to mention that it is really difficult to properly deal out immobilises in full teamfights+proper trollers do it MUCH better.
The melee powers add a litle damage to your build, but isnt melee a really really bad place for a squishy character like a blaster to stay for long? Especially lategame where you're bound to take lots of AoE damage no matter how good your tank is, many TF AV's two-shot Blaster types with just their AoE bursts. Aside from the downsides im just as big a fan of Ice/Fire swords as anyone!


 

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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Actually I think I have. Blaster performance is the way it is so that Defenders have someone to defend. I honestly think that's the part of the teaming concept the original devs had that the current crop of devs still cling to. Even though they have abandoned the teaming/team support (ie: difficult to solo) concepts of all the other ATs.
I'm not sure I would call that an objective reason to keep Blaster performance low. That would imply that Tankers, Scrappers, Controllers, and Defenders are all relying on Blasters to give them purpose. Tankers aren't designed to control aggro, they are designed to take aggro away from Blasters. Controllers aren't designed to control targets, they are designed to control targets so they don't shoot at the Blasters. Defenders aren't ally buffers, they are Blaster buffers.

I actually suggested a few weeks ago that this might in fact be true to a degree, but that doesn't mean its actually a good reason to continue the practice. Its more a statement of fear and prejudice than an actual valid game design rationale. It would imply that Blasters are the sacrificial lamb of the game, and if that's the case the devs have an obligation to state so.

I double-dare them to do so publicly.


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