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I understand where "you" are coming from. There are some here that are trying to turn Blasters into tankmages with status protection, armor and MOAR damage and it is getting on my nerves.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
You either buff what is falling behind or nerf what is ahead.
My preffered method of balancing is to buff what is falling behind up to what is on top and then if the situation presents itself make the game harder to keep things challenging, with the weakest link brought up to par it can be alot easier to make the game harder without a certain portion (or at the very least limit that portion) of the game feeling ostracized and unable to keep up. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Yup. Same |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I understand where "you" are coming from. There are some here that are trying to turn Blasters into tankmages with status protection, armor and MOAR damage and it is getting on my nerves.
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I want blasters to be buffed just as much as the next person, I just think we need to be reasonable about it.
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Again: I *have* seen, but have not personally found it to be the case. Particularly sans IOs, temp powers, and stacks of inspirations.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Then all you need do is go to You tube and type a simple search for City of Heroes and AV's/GM's and you will find such feats documented for all to see across many AT's.
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I once watched a video where a FF Defender battled (but did not defeat) an AV for several minutes, whereas my experience as a FF Defender against AVs has been getting defeated within the first few seconds of combat regardless of how many purple inspirations I pop beforehand or if I have PFF up. As I recall, that was before IOs existed. My solo experiences with various AVs using sturdier ATs has been only slightly less abysmal. I find Scrappers, Brutes, and Stalkers to be too squishy and Tanks to reach barely acceptable levels of sturdiness on their own merits.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
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I like both these ideas. |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
My two ideas for snipes:
1) Backport the dominator sniper attack adjustments to corruptors, defenders, blasters, and any other AT with a snipe I'm forgetting about. That is, increase damage scale from 2.76 to 3.56, recharge from 12s to 20s, end cost from 14.35 to 18.51. This would probably be the least controversial change. 2) Make all interruptible attacks for all ATs autohit. To-hit rolls only exist to add uncertainty and keep players on their toes a bit. Interruptibility already adds uncertainty, so there is no need for a to-hit roll on top of that. Sniper attack IO sets would need an adjustment, but they're in need of an overhaul anyway. |
I would also like to see some in-combat utility added to snipes. And for those who say that would make them no longer snipes, I disagree. Compare it to real life. You can fire a sniper rifle without taking the time to carefully set up your shot. It won't be as effective, but you can still do it. Snipes in this game should be the same way. If you're willing to accept the interrupt time, they're the longest-ranged and hardest hitting ST attacks in the set. If you want to fire them off faster you can, but the accuracy, damage, and range will be reduced.
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"If" you are actually interested in doing it yourself then there are posts in the AT sections where builds are listed so... you can if you so desire.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Again: I *have* seen, but have not personally found it to be the case. Particularly sans IOs, temp powers, and stacks of inspirations.
I once watched a video where a FF Defender battled (but did not defeat) an AV for several minutes, whereas my experience as a FF Defender against AVs has been getting defeated within the first few seconds of combat regardless of how many purple inspirations I pop beforehand or if I have PFF up. As I recall, that was before IOs existed. My solo experiences with various AVs using sturdier ATs has been only slightly less abysmal. I find Scrappers, Brutes, and Stalkers to be too squishy and Tanks to reach barely acceptable levels of sturdiness on their own merits. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
I like the idea of just a straight damage buff. I use the snipe on my energy blaster to start a lot of fights and it would be nice if it were more of a sure thing, even if just on lt's. Getting rid of the interrupt would just make it another attack, and I've already got as many, if not more, attacks as I can reasonably and at the same time make it not a snipe.
Also, fix the break in the Sniper Rifle animation where you lower the gun half-way through before finishing the shot.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
To fix Snipe, just look at Stalker's Assassin Strike.
Snipe is just like a heavy range attack with interruption.
You took a power and slot it well and you only get to use it once per fight because either you are under fire a lot or the DPA is so terrible that you are better off using something else. That's gotta change. The old Assassin Strike has been proven that it's not good enough.
I don't want a straight up damage buff for Snipe because that will mean I still only get to use once, unless the damage is so high that I can take out a boss with two hits. :P
I want more ease to use it. They increase recharge but give me a lot less activation time and possibly no interruption. Snipe isn't an attack that should be cycled often but it needs to have more reasons to be used often. Honestly, I don't even use snipe to pull a lot of time. A 80' range pull is good enough.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I don't like all these ideas of buffing a snipe like crazy with the only "nerf" being a recharge increase. If an AT had a power that could one-shot an AV, but only every two hours, it still would be overpowered.
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Right, but we aren't talking AVs we are talking Lieutenants.|
Originally Posted by Rikti
I don't like all these ideas of buffing a snipe like crazy with the only "nerf" being a recharge increase. If an AT had a power that could one-shot an AV, but only every two hours, it still would be overpowered.
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If you can't one shot a lieutenant with it then arguably it is better to skip the snipe and just use single target attacks. The animation time is all ready too much of a cost. Extra recharge for triple damage is just making up the difference for the blaster all ready having been over charged.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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If you increase the damage of sniper blasts, the only thing you're supposed to do is increase endurance and recharge according to the formulas. No power pays for doing more or less damage than any other.|
Originally Posted by Rikti
I don't like all these ideas of buffing a snipe like crazy with the only "nerf" being a recharge increase. If an AT had a power that could one-shot an AV, but only every two hours, it still would be overpowered.
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However, for single target attacks the critical parameter for a cycling attack - one intended to be used in an attack chain - is DPA. And all snipes have extremely bad DPA.
If they did not have extra long range and were not interruptible, they would be objectively underpowered by virtue of having horrendous DPA. And the extra range is of limited usefulness when other blaster attacks can't reach that range and interruptibility is a penalty and not an advantage.
Buffing sniper shots would be a burst damage problem if sniper blasts did more damage than can be considered reasonable in one shot. But that's obviously false because lots of things do more. Blaster snipes do only 2.76 DS. Total focus and its analogs do 3.56, along with Dominator snipes. Energy Transfer does 4.56. Assassin's strike attacks, the closest analog to blaster snipes that exist, do between 5.0 and 7.0 when they crit.
Unless you are a corner case, and the numbers say snipes are not, single target attacks should be judged primarily on the basis of DPA. The typical blaster snipe that deals 2.76 DS with 4.33 cast time has a DPA of 0.64, 0.61 at 4.488 arcanatime. In terms of blaster single target DPA, that is near the bottom of all blaster single target damaging attacks. In fact, one of the few single target ranged attacks that has worse DPA than that is Bitter Freeze Ray, which most people don't consider a genuine damaging attack (DPA: 0.53, 0.5 under arcanatime).
No one I'm aware of is asking for being able to one-shot AVs, but its worth noting that if sniper blasts were somehow scaled up to be able to do that, with their current DPA such an attack would root the player for over six minutes. That's still good but not great, and its a testimony to the extremely high cost that sniper shots extract from their users that it can make the amazing seem almost undesirable.
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Shorn of any 'envy' of other ATs, this is how I would like Snipes to work:
Snipes should to be Snipes - Taking the time and effort to put a huge amount of damage, a long way down-range. If You Move before the interruption-time expires, the Snipe is interrupted, just as it is now.
However, 'Snipes' should Also be able to be used as part of the attack-chain. So, they have some minimum damage and minimum animation time - if you take damage and get interrupted, then the 'minimum' attack goes off.
If you are interrupted by an attack after the minimum, but before the full Snipe goes off, then the damage should be scaled to match.
So, if you manage the full Snipe-time, and pass the second line-of sight check, then the Snipe should deliver an absurd amount of damage to enemies that can't even see you, yet. Of course, other Snipers might indeed spot you and return the favor, so you might want to hide...
And, you know, THEY can shoot through walls... So you might want to hide good.
Be Well!
Fireheart
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Basically what you want is Snipes to work like the Stalker AS, except making it significantly more complicated and more difficult to code.|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Shorn of any 'envy' of other ATs, this is how I would like Snipes to work:
Snipes should to be Snipes - Taking the time and effort to put a huge amount of damage, a long way down-range. If You Move before the interruption-time expires, the Snipe is interrupted, just as it is now. However, 'Snipes' should Also be able to be used as part of the attack-chain. So, they have some minimum damage and minimum animation time - if you take damage and get interrupted, then the 'minimum' attack goes off. If you are interrupted by an attack after the minimum, but before the full Snipe goes off, then the damage should be scaled to match. So, if you manage the full Snipe-time, and pass the second line-of sight check, then the Snipe should deliver an absurd amount of damage to enemies that can't even see you, yet. Of course, other Snipers might indeed spot you and return the favor, so you might want to hide... And, you know, THEY can shoot through walls... So you might want to hide good. Be Well! Fireheart |
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*Cough* |
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Shorn of any 'envy' of other ATs, this is how I would like Snipes to work:
Snipes should to be Snipes - Taking the time and effort to put a huge amount of damage, a long way down-range. If You Move before the interruption-time expires, the Snipe is interrupted, just as it is now. However, 'Snipes' should Also be able to be used as part of the attack-chain. So, they have some minimum damage and minimum animation time - if you take damage and get interrupted, then the 'minimum' attack goes off. If you are interrupted by an attack after the minimum, but before the full Snipe goes off, then the damage should be scaled to match. So, if you manage the full Snipe-time, and pass the second line-of sight check, then the Snipe should deliver an absurd amount of damage to enemies that can't even see you, yet. Of course, other Snipers might indeed spot you and return the favor, so you might want to hide... And, you know, THEY can shoot through walls... So you might want to hide good. Be Well! Fireheart |
*points up the thread*
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Originally Posted by Seldom
I suggested this elsewhere, but basically I'd like for sniper attacks to have two modes: one as a fast, high damage long range power and one as a higher damage but interruptable power.
So basically you can use it quickly as a bit hitter, even in combat, or you can use it as a big hitter from range at the cost of using it again soon. |
Yes, but I retained the ability to self-interrupt, in case you decide Not to shoot, yet.
Be Well!
Fireheart
If Snipe is truly designed to be ONLY used at LONG RANGE and causes no Aggro, then several Snipe powers need more work.
Energy Blast
Assault Rifle
Beam Rifle
I believe these 3 have either knock down or knock back. If a "control" effect happens, I believe majority, if not the whole group, is alerted. Your pull will aggro.
Is there a way to force Snipe to be only used at certain range? For example, if you are within 60', you can't activate Snipe. Is that even possible in this game?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Mobs only chain aggro if you miss and are within perception range. That's why AoEs that are short range (ie:60' or less) are bad for blasters. If you miss one mob they all notify and aggro instantly. If you hit them all they don't aggro until a debuff or the damage is applied. When they chain aggro they queue an attack instantly and because of the way the game mechanics are they roll to hit instantly. Then, even if the mobs are subsequently mezzed, (Sirens Song is a good example here) their animations will complete, their attacks will fire all at nearly the same time, and land and do damage and/or apply mez. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
If Snipe is truly designed to be ONLY used at LONG RANGE and causes no Aggro, then several Snipe powers need more work.
Energy Blast Assault Rifle Beam Rifle I believe these 3 have either knock down or knock back. If a "control" effect happens, I believe majority, if not the whole group, is alerted. Your pull will aggro. Is there a way to force Snipe to be only used at certain range? For example, if you are within 60', you can't activate Snipe. Is that even possible in this game? |
This is what we mean by the alpha strike.
Being outside perception range of the majority of the spawn will only chain aggro the ones in perception range. Snipe range solves this problem with all most all enemy types. (Rikti drones being a notable exception)
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I would hope that the LRM rocket would be included in some sort of snipe buff :3
Then I can phewwww*boom more effectively
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Mobs only chain aggro if you miss and are within perception range. That's why AoEs that are short range (ie:60' or less) are bad for blasters. If you miss one mob they all notify and aggro instantly. If you hit them all they don't aggro until a debuff or the damage is applied. When they chain aggro they queue an attack instantly and because of the way the game mechanics are they roll to hit instantly. Then, even if the mobs are subsequently mezzed, (Sirens Song is a good example here) their animations will complete, their attacks will fire all at nearly the same time, and land and do damage and/or apply mez.
This is what we mean by the alpha strike. Being outside perception range of the majority of the spawn will only chain aggro the ones in perception range. Snipe range solves this problem with all most all enemy types. (Rikti drones being a notable exception) |
From what I understand, if the enemy is "mezzed" (knocked back, held, stunned), then most of the enemies within that group will be notified even if you are at very long range. People do corner pull (hit and then hide in the corner before the attack lands) all the time and I see people use Nemesis Staff which has knock back and it always pulls majority of the group. The Black Wand is a much better way to pull because it only has -tohit debuff.
I've seen Sniper Rifle pulls and knocks down and alert majority of the enemy. I am not sure if he didn't stand really far enough or what, but I am pretty sure if you want to pull, don't use any attack with control effect. Control effects my exclude confuse and fear. I know knock back, stun and hold will alert.
My whole point is that if they want Snipe to be an aggro-less super long-range attack, they shouldn't add control effects in them.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Its much more complicated than that. I used to be one of the best pullers around, and I did that with energy blast including sniper blast. So much was situationally based on range, perception range, even the directions mobs face (they don't "see" in one direction, but their aggro detection area is lopsided in the direction they face). I used to spend my free time figuring out how to execute pulls that were stated to be impossible on the forums, just for fun. Like pulling a boss out of a group of minions, or pulling two bosses apart, or pulling exactly half a group.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
From what I understand, if the enemy is "mezzed" (knocked back, held, stunned), then most of the enemies within that group will be notified even if you are at very long range. People do corner pull (hit and then hide in the corner before the attack lands) all the time and I see people use Nemesis Staff which has knock back and it always pulls majority of the group. The Black Wand is a much better way to pull because it only has -tohit debuff.
I've seen Sniper Rifle pulls and knocks down and alert majority of the enemy. I am not sure if he didn't stand really far enough or what, but I am pretty sure if you want to pull, don't use any attack with control effect. Control effects my exclude confuse and fear. I know knock back, stun and hold will alert. My whole point is that if they want Snipe to be an aggro-less super long-range attack, they shouldn't add control effects in them. |
I can't even remember the last time I pulled anything on energy blast because I'm not really built for it anymore, but the "control equals bad pull" conjecture isn't true. At least, its not absolutely true, whether it made adjacent spawns more susceptible to aggro alarms is still an open question for me.
The real problem with pulling and particularly single pulling with snipes is that if snipes were meant for pulling they would do less damage and recycle fast, so you could selectively pull from very long range. Instead, you have a single very powerful shot that can basically kill a minion outright, but if you use it to pull then after it discharges there's basically nothing to do but wait because blasters generally have no attacks with significantly more than 80' of range and less than sniper range of 150'. While the critter(s) is running towards you, there's nothing you can really do until he enters normal range of 80', which is also going to be his range, because the one attack you have that hits at that range is recharging, since you just used it.
Its tactically strange.
One thought experiment I've been thinking about for a while with regard to snipes is this question: suppose sniper blasts had *zero* recharge. What problems would occur that we'd have to fix?
Its an interesting thought experiment, because so far I haven't thought of any. The numbers are also interesting, because a blaster cycling a sniper shot from long range over and over has basically limited himself or herself to single target damage at a DPA level comparable to the average Defender, but with no defender buffs or debuffs in play.
That's a fascinating coincidence.
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My take on snipes.
Snipes were one of the few powers/sets that were dealt more then the numbers had shown in terms of power reduction from ED. While the dmg was obviously reduced when going from 6 red SO's to ED cap, snipes also suffered from a massive blow to actual use.
A snipe was a power used to destroy a troublesome minion, or is used with aim/BU, destroy a liut, or at least make it so a follow up would eliminate them. This function made the stupid long interrupt and animation times effectively "worth it" as the utility totally outwieghed the negatives.
So, when we got ED, we lost dmg obviously, but it also altered this utility to the point it did not surpass the negatives. that was like what, issue 5 or so? snipes have been on the complaint list ever since.
There are different ways to fix snipes. If we are content to simply return the utility back to where it was, a simple base dmg modification so dmg+ed enhancment returns the power back to pre ED levels would do so. If we want a new shiny, then a slug of new game mechanics can be thrown at it, like stalker change style, or adding secondary effects. The sky is the limit. maybe the secondary effect should vary by set, like Zapp could cause a chain induction secondary "dmg jump" effect. Moonbeam could do an AOE to hit debuff. Psi lance could do a chance for AOE stun, etc. or maybe snipes should add a temporary boost range effect so follow up attacks can also be fired at longer range. maybe they should get a chance for critical hit with an increasing % chance based on minion/liut/boss.
if i had to pick a way to fix snipes, I would alter each snipe power based 100% on the set it is part of. After all, a fix for one snipe, like blazing bolt, may not be an appropriate fix for another, like moonbeam. This would both fix snipes and offer more flavor for each set and could possibly be a piece of the puzzle to help underperforming sets. I would also add 5 seconds of a boost range secondary effect to all of them.
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Quote:
That's actually a very interesting idea. I'm going to steal it.
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Originally Posted by Eldagore
I would also add 5 seconds of a boost range secondary effect to all of them.
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lol. I dont care. if I have learned anything in life, it is that none of my ideas are actually my idea because I am not in a position where my voice is loud enough to hear, and the human race in general is to competitive and selfish to actually allow for any type of true collective think tank to reach it's potential. Such is why change and improvment takes so long.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's actually a very interesting idea. I'm going to steal it.
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Quote:
I know that to not be the case for certain.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
From what I understand, if the enemy is "mezzed" (knocked back, held, stunned), then most of the enemies within that group will be notified even if you are at very long range. People do corner pull (hit and then hide in the corner before the attack lands) all the time and I see people use Nemesis Staff which has knock back and it always pulls majority of the group. The Black Wand is a much better way to pull because it only has -tohit debuff.
I've seen Sniper Rifle pulls and knocks down and alert majority of the enemy. I am not sure if he didn't stand really far enough or what, but I am pretty sure if you want to pull, don't use any attack with control effect. Control effects my exclude confuse and fear. I know knock back, stun and hold will alert. My whole point is that if they want Snipe to be an aggro-less super long-range attack, they shouldn't add control effects in them. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=282489
You can read through this thread if you like. The tl:dr version is this:
Flash Freeze has a base range of 60 feet and a radius of 25'. If you move exactly to 60 feet and cast it and miss 1 mob in the spawn the entire spawn will aggro (because you are in their perception range) AND THEN those that were hit will take damage and be encased in the ice sleeping. (Flash Freeze applies both damage and a mez)
If you hit all the mobs some return fire can come back your direction between the time the damage is applied and the time the mez is applied but most often it is none unless you are closer than 60'
If you slot 2 SOs worth of range in Flash Freeze you have range 84 and radius 25. If you approach the spawn so that the closest mob is at 84 feet and cast it only the ones you miss will aggro since you are outside their perception radius. The others will all take their damage and then get mezzed.
If there is a boss in the group and domination is down the spawn will chain aggro even at 84 feet because the boss will take damage and not be locked down. They will launch attacks between the damage and sleep portions of the mez and then the minions and lieutenants will be asleep.
If Domination is up and you use flash freeze as above you get no chain aggro again because the boss will be mezzed along with the rest of the spawn the only mobs that will attack you are the mobs that were missed and not mezzed.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
So you're saying Fire Breath, Psychic Scream, Tenebrous Tentacles, Fistful of Arrows, Buckshot, Empty Clips, Energy Torrent, Electron Haze, Howl, Siren's Song, and Frost Breath are all bad because they aggro enemies. God forbid.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
AoEs that are short range (ie:60' or less) are bad for blasters.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.