Should Hero and Villain rewards be different (sometimes)?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-02-17 13:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Definitely. Heroes should be given "gold stars". These should be worthless, except to count. But a true hero does not want pay and should not flaunt their stars.
Villains should be paid in "children's tears", redeemable/tradeable on the "Sinister Exchange" for all manner of wealth/goodies/weapons to use against heroes.
I had thought of this before, and I fully support the idea.
Something I had thought of was that the balance between the number of redside players and blueside players was in a large part determined by the content and how desireable it is. Red side is fun, but I always found it a bit lacking in the scale of content that was actually there.
Now, what I would prefer to do is to make more content and better content for redside. But, a reasonable alternative is to make their desires for power rewarded. This works in two senses: First, it bribes players to go redside. Second, it makes sense that by being evil and doing evil things for personal gain, you'd actually get that gain. Much to how stealing rewards you with money if you can live with being a criminal and all that.
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1) HvV balance can be pretty delicate. It took them a long time (read: loooooong) to get villains up to the hero standard (the big thing being patron/mastery proliferation). At this point it can easily be said that the 2 "factions" are well balanced. That said, I tend to avoid anything that could disrupt said balance for either side.
2) This would involve alot of dev time to go back to pretty much every mission and add a reward table to it. A reward table that isn't very significant outside of RP reasoning. The RP factor of the reward tables would only apply to those who actually care about RP, while it would be forced upon everyone else. Infact if I got assaulted by a reward table after every mission I'd be more annoyed with it than anything, since it's not really additional rewards, it's just changing the rewards to suit what you want most, which for most players would be the same thing over and over. Something like that would be better as a toggle in the options menu tbh and would take significantly less dev resources.
Pffft. I have no problems with them allowing villains to get a reward and the heroes not to. And vice versa.
I think people need to get over the whole "This isn't fair" thing they have going when it comes to heroes/villains or male/female avatars.
If it makes sense. Let it happen.
This makes sense.
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No it doesn't. We have only recently begun to OVERCOME the "heroes get the good stuff, villains get a rock" concept. [With the exception of EAT vs VEAT, which is still and shall forever remain villain > hero, hahaha.] Villains still, to this day, have more to overcome than heroes do. Their homeside content is more difficult, and there are fewer teams to get those rewards ON.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Pffft. I have no problems with them allowing villains to get a reward and the heroes not to. And vice versa.
I think people need to get over the whole "This isn't fair" thing they have going when it comes to heroes/villains or male/female avatars. If it makes sense. Let it happen. This makes sense. |
How about let's don't nerf villain rewards? Thx.
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Oh, I didn't start this topic in the interest of nerfing villain rewards, but offering more options for them to better fit a villain's motivations.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
No it doesn't. We have only recently begun to OVERCOME the "heroes get the good stuff, villains get a rock" concept. [With the exception of EAT vs VEAT, which is still and shall forever remain villain > hero, hahaha.] Villains still, to this day, have more to overcome than heroes do. Their homeside content is more difficult, and there are fewer teams to get those rewards ON.
How about let's don't nerf villain rewards? Thx. |
In no way was my suggestion a 'sell', just something I was thought I'd present, and wanted to see what we, collectively, can come up with or find that could make villains just as desireable to play as heroes... something... different that sets them apart. This reward table idea is just one idea... I'd like to see others. Hopefully Zwillinger or one of the Dev's may poke in and read it, passing these ideas on.
I'd like to see villains, without being a 'more rewarding' experience than heroes, be different from heroes in how they are rewarded. Different mechanics and ways for them to do things that can set the redside experience apart from blueside.
Villains (generally, though not always, depending on their point of view) seek different rewards from their endavours than heroes. Their motivations often define how and why they're villains. Sure a hero may get to keep a 'goodie' as a souviner or to use for a time to 'test' it or whatever, but some villains want to steal things to use, or sell, or trade for something they do want, or destroy it for kicks. Having a way of expressing that would give a unique way of rewarding villains for their efforts, much like the system I'm suggesting above (which, by the way, offers the option of just keeping normal rewards if that's what they want).
Much like Mayhem missions accidentally accomplished, villains need more things that set them apart from the heroes. Not unfair, but different. What I was hoping to bring with this thread is discussion about how to do that, and be different enough from hero side to make being a villain as interesting and rewarding in its own right.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Infact if I got assaulted by a reward table after every mission I'd be more annoyed with it than anything, since it's not really additional rewards, it's just changing the rewards to suit what you want most, which for most players would be the same thing over and over. Something like that would be better as a toggle in the options menu tbh and would take significantly less dev resources
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Like I said, I'm not wanting to put anything in cement. That's for those in power to do if they like any of what we're talking about.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
This is pretty much what the Halloween tip mission is about, giving you an Evil Artifacttm and choosing what to do with it. For variety's sake I certainly wouldn't mind it, though not applying it to everything.
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This is a yes, and no.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
This is pretty much what the Halloween tip mission is about, giving you an Evil Artifacttm and choosing what to do with it. For variety's sake I certainly wouldn't mind it, though not applying it to everything.
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Each gives a different badge, but that only benefits the badge collectors (and I have a character or two that collects the badges and have done so, so I can't complain). There's no temp power that allows the item to be a unique power grab in and of itself.
That said, I wouldn't want it applied to everything. Just everything that makes sense. If I get the 'Dagger of Erishkigel', why can't I (most importantly) use it, or sell it for lots of cash, or get it because I can trade it for X-I want, because someone else wants it because it's apparently a rare unique artifact? (coincidentally, I can't wait for temp power stacking to fall on all the temp powers for this reason...)
There are folks who love temp powers and collect them like badges. They like to pose with them when possible, though never or rarely use them, and have them in their temp power list for just that reaon (I have characters for that, too). There are also villains that would just sell them or destroy them. Why not give them all the option, while still being rewarded for getting it?
There's a part of me that wishes I left this 'mulitiple choice' out of the origial post, because that seems to be the focus. While it's a favored option of mine, I'd rather it be about how we can make hero and villain rewards/acknowledgements different enough to make it a different kind of game, creating a different playstyle different from City of Heroes and City of Villains to make them almost a different experience worth playing alltogether.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
In general, I think the idea is cool. On paper both sides probably should be about even, but even on paper you can really see the attention levels being paid to either side being fairly lopsided. I could probably list the advantages villains still have going for them on one hand. Smaller travel times, "better" mission structure for their legacy content, that free Notice they can get from that one SF, Patron sets, and... peace and quiet, I guess? Oh, they do get a buff instead of a debuff in the new tutorial. So there's that. Anyway, adding some appeal or downright advantages to being a villain/rogue couldn't hurt - it's not like the heroes will be switching sides in droves or anything.
Personally, I feel that if you want actual rewards, you can spin this either way. Actually, let me give an example with Gothic 3. In that game, you have three factions to choose from, that I remember - templars, mages and mercenaries, each of which reward you with power, but in different ways. As a templar, you find the Tears of Whatever and use them to craft a magic weapon. As a mage, you find the Tears of Whatever and drink them to gain a lot of power. As a mercenary, you find a magical smith who teaches you how to craft magical items in other ways.
What I'm saying is that I see no problem with villains stealing, killing for or extorting their price by being evil while heroes simply earning their prize for being nice. Actually, if we want to be so bold, I don't see a problem with hero and villain prizes being much the same. What I mean by this is say a villain has a mission to take over an orbital death ray. If the villain completes it, he gets the death ray and has a few charges for a temp power, after which it breaks down and explodes. In the hero version, said hero is supposed to stop the villain from taking over the death ray. Upon succeeding, its owner decides such a weapon is too powerful to keep active and resolves to shut it down, but gives the hero limited use of the device until this happens, resulting in a limited-use temporary power.
As I said in my other thread, I like to treat both heroes and villains as people with a larger objective than JUST heroism and villainy for its own sake, and I feel that both of those can work with practical rewards. I believe any artefact, machine or resource can be used for good or evil, if given the right narrative background. It's the "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." idea.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Where did I say nerf? o.O|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
No it doesn't. We have only recently begun to OVERCOME the "heroes get the good stuff, villains get a rock" concept. [With the exception of EAT vs VEAT, which is still and shall forever remain villain > hero, hahaha.] Villains still, to this day, have more to overcome than heroes do. Their homeside content is more difficult, and there are fewer teams to get those rewards ON.
How about let's don't nerf villain rewards? Thx. |
I said I was for giving the villains things if it made sense. In fact, I said give if it makes sense period.
But then I also did say people need to get over the "Heroes this" "Villains that"
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I would propose using those specific type of missions as a way to unlock those goodies as crafting recipes.
This way, you get to keep you XP/Inf reward and if you decide you want that "Death Ray from Mission X"; you'll have access to the recipe (just like Heroes do with the Lost Curing Wand)
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Sam mentioned faction rewards; I'm down for that too (on a different scale) (and have made the suggestion on multiple occasions). I mean, we already have it (to a limited extent) with: Origin Enhancements (vendors and mob-faction drops), Praetorian missions and the redside coral arc but I would like to see the latter expanded on for redside; from level one on.
Between the Arachnos in-fighting and all the factions vying for the upper hand in each of the redside zones; there's ample material to build such a system on.
Faction 'points' could be measured in both per Zone and 'total Isle' fashion ('open world' if Blue/Red sides became truly integrated); with favorable faction contacts providing discounts, temps, faction specific missions and exclusives while unfavorable contacts charge more, offer less or ignore the character outright.
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I'm not sure that would fly. Not unless heroes had access to something similar, and I'd rather avoid that. Plus, the trade off is where the balance would lay. Quick, limited, power (the goodie) or long term rewards (xp) or riches (lots of inf), etc. |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I would propose using those specific type of missions as a way to unlock those goodies as crafting recipes.
This way, you get to keep you XP/Inf reward and if you decide you want that "Death Ray from Mission X"; you'll have access to the recipe (just like Heroes do with the Lost Curing Wand) |
Plus as Temporary powers with charges there would be better control on the Dev's side to keep it blanced. Assuming the arc that gave a Death Ray of Doom could even be Oroborous-ed, they could adjust it to be an "Echo" power that isn't as strong or has far less charges to it.
Though having villain specific Temp Power recipes (and conversley hero ones) as a seperate thing would be kind of neat, too. Having a [Death Ray] for villains (not a Death Ray of Doom- that would be too powerful
) limited charge high damage attack, it's experimental and the aim isn't too good, but when it hits, WHAM!! Or how about [Handcuffs] for heroes? Short term Melee-range Hold attack (just use the 'cement shoes' animation without the bucket) That's something to think about... They have similar things related to day jobs so... why not?Again, it's finding ways to make Heroes and Villains play different from each other without giving too much of an advantage to either.
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Sam mentioned faction rewards; I'm down for that too (on a different scale) (and have made the suggestion on multiple occasions). I mean, we already have it (to a limited extent) with: Origin Enhancements (vendors and mob-faction drops), Praetorian missions and the redside coral arc but I would like to see the latter expanded on for redside; from level one on.
Between the Arachnos in-fighting and all the factions vying for the upper hand in each of the redside zones; there's ample material to build such a system on. Faction 'points' could be measured in both per Zone and 'total Isle' fashion ('open world' if Blue/Red sides became truly integrated); with favorable faction contacts providing discounts, temps, faction specific missions and exclusives while unfavorable contacts charge more, offer less or ignore the character outright. |
Folks already are unhappy with all the types of 'currency' they have to keep track of currently (particularly with the Incarnate System) and it's suspected for the next tiers they'll add even more so folks can't 'hoard up' in advance for them. So in that respect, I think that'd be best avoided, if possible.
I would say it might be neat if it's just a thing you build up to garner trust or goods, but the level and alignment systems would probably represent that well enough for gating purposes.
However, I love the idea of Paragon and the Isles becoming integrated. My main villain is a Rogue so he can carry out his nefarious plans in Paragon unhindered. I'd love to take some of my heroes over to the Rogue Isles and help the poor people there against those who would opress them, but for many of them, that would require crossing a line they either can't (in the case of my main hero) or won't and becoming a Vigilante. Plus, unfortunately, there's nothing but radio/paper missions that I can imagine are heroic or villainous acts for my respective characters... but that's another thread alltogether.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Heroes already do; the Lost Curing Wand. And I'm all for it going both ways. |
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I'm not sure that would fly. Not unless heroes had access to something similar, and I'd rather avoid that. Plus, the trade off is where the balance would lay. Quick, limited, power (the goodie) or long term rewards (xp) or riches (lots of inf), etc.
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The only problem I have with this is it's yet another form of 'currency' players would have to keep track of. Folks already are unhappy with all the types of 'currency' they have to keep track of currently (particularly with the Incarnate System) and it's suspected for the next tiers they'll add even more so folks can't 'hoard up' in advance for them. So in that respect, I think that'd be best avoided, if possible. |
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| I would say it might be neat if it's just a thing you build up to garner trust or goods, but the level and alignment systems would probably represent that well enough for gating purposes. |
Transition in these systems all have 'hard boundaries'. There's no fluidity in the causality of one's dealings with NPCs; they all have no 'memory' (so to speak) of what you've done to help or harm their respective persons or factions. You can't build relationships/partnerships with anybody outside of preset contacts and even those are extremely limited.
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| However, I love the idea of Paragon and the Isles becoming integrated. My main villain is a Rogue so he can carry out his nefarious plans in Paragon unhindered. I'd love to take some of my heroes over to the Rogue Isles and help the poor people there against those who would opress them, but for many of them, that would require crossing a line they either can't (in the case of my main hero) or won't and becoming a Vigilante. Plus, unfortunately, there's nothing but radio/paper missions that I can imagine are heroic or villainous acts for my respective characters... but that's another thread alltogether. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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I'm hoping Zwillinger and other Powers That Be *don't* decide to take this seriously. Why not? Because 4 out of 5 of these:|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Oh, I didn't start this topic in the interest of nerfing villain rewards, but offering more options for them to better fit a villain's motivations.
In no way was my suggestion a 'sell', just something I was thought I'd present, and wanted to see what we, collectively, can come up with or find that could make villains just as desireable to play as heroes... something... different that sets them apart. This reward table idea is just one idea... I'd like to see others. Hopefully Zwillinger or one of the Dev's may poke in and read it, passing these ideas on. |
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After completing the story arc, or mission, you could make one of the following choices: 1) Keep the item- it becomes a temp power with so many charges. You do NOT get end of story XP or Inf. The item is powerful and really useful (it is a Death Ray of Doom after all) making it worth the sacrifice. 2) Sell the item- You get NO end of story XP but a substantial inf reward instead. 3) Trade the item on the Black Market- Instead of XP or Inf you get a special drop recipe reward off the best list (can't recall the different drop tiers off the top of my head... whatever's the best one). 4) Use the item to further your own power- NO end of story Inf, but you get more XP instead (it's presumed you either consume, integrate, or implement it in some way that increases your own personal power) 5) Destroy the item- You get the regular end of story xp and inf, but you get a prestige bonus for being so audacious that you'd actually destroy it. |
We've overcome so much as villains, including being 50% poorer for YEARS due to the market. We were "set apart" enough, thanks. We have fewer zones, fewer task forces, fewer badges, the list goes on and on. How about NOT fewer rewards? Becasue telling me that I might get a temp power but no xp or infamy just feels really..... nerfish.
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| someone else: But then I also did say people need to get over the "Heroes this" "Villains that" |
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This here. I like the idea of varying up the rewards, but doing so at the expense of end of mission XP rewards and inf strikes me as an unnecessary tradeoff.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
.... 4 out of 5 of those seem like nerfs to me.
We've overcome so much as villains, including being 50% poorer for YEARS due to the market. We were "set apart" enough, thanks. We have fewer zones, fewer task forces, fewer badges, the list goes on and on. How about NOT fewer rewards? Becasue telling me that I might get a temp power but no xp or infamy just feels really..... nerfish. |
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I get what you're saying, but that's why it's a choice (you don't have to take the others). Additionally, the trades should be significant. I tried to illustrate this in the 'trade' for the recipie drop to be from the 'best list'. If you wanted influence, it should be a very large ammount to represent the sacrifice of the XP or 'goodie' Temp Power. The Temp power should have a decent ammount of charges and work well enough to justify the sacrifice (75-100 charges, for example).|
Originally Posted by Bad Influence
.... 4 out of 5 of those seem like nerfs to me.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
This here. I like the idea of varying up the rewards, but doing so at the expense of end of mission XP rewards and inf strikes me as an unnecessary tradeoff.
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Anyway, The topic has strayed somewhat. My original suggestion was just to get the ball rolling, not justify the topic itself. If you don't like that, what would YOU prefer instead?
Frankly, compared to blueside, redside is floundering, so they're trying to make content that redside players can participate in, but it basically equates to having villains get suckered into helping heroes save the world, because there's so many more hero players they need to cater to. Just no money in doing more specific redside stuff unless more people are interested.
To me, that means a fundamental change in gameplay that makes playing Villains different enough to make them interesting in their own right. The current equality just means I see a lot of "hero" villains who have no reason being heroes in any capacity, other than the player perception of 'blueside is better, and it's easier to find teams'.
The two most fundamental ways I can think of would either be in gameplay itself, or the rewards. Rewards seem to be a good first step, as changes in the gameplay to cater more to various villain motivations would take a lot more work and effort. Obviously not something they're willing to do at the moment with such a smaller playerbase than blueside.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Not happening, sorry. I play both heroes and villains, and I'm very protective of my villains. They have endured enough abuse
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So you don't like my idea? Again, what would YOU do to make redside a more interesting and unique experience from blueside, to draw more players to stay and/or become villains?
That was the point of this, not to merely debate the merits of the first suggestion I popped out with, but get kind of a 'thinktank' going that might help the Dev's figure out ways to make redside more appealing. With redside already created, I really believe it somehow starts with the rewards.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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I don't consider the lost curing wand a goodie. In fact I consider that mission pancaking annoying as hell.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Heroes already do; the Lost Curing Wand. And I'm all for it going both ways.
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I to this day prefer the villanous way of unlocking the ITF zone.
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I would leave it exactly as is. As someone else mentioned getting that reward table at the end of every mission would pure idiocy.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
I get what you're saying, but that's why it's a choice (you don't have to take the others). Additionally, the trades should be significant. I tried to illustrate this in the 'trade' for the recipie drop to be from the 'best list'. If you wanted influence, it should be a very large ammount to represent the sacrifice of the XP or 'goodie' Temp Power. The Temp power should have a decent ammount of charges and work well enough to justify the sacrifice (75-100 charges, for example).
Then to get that and the goodie would mean the goodie would be a pretty piece of useless data in your tray, because to keep it balanced with heroes just getting the regular xp/inf instead of the more specialized villain 'cherry picking' choices, would mean the Temp Power would be pretty much effectively worthless. The Death Ray of Doom would barely hit, and when it did, would probably do brawl damage or something. I could see hero players complaining that villains get all the 'good stuff' in Temp Powers and whatnot anyway. There's gotta be a balance of give and take to justify it. Anyway, The topic has strayed somewhat. My original suggestion was just to get the ball rolling, not justify the topic itself. If you don't like that, what would YOU prefer instead? Frankly, compared to blueside, redside is floundering, so they're trying to make content that redside players can participate in, but it basically equates to having villains get suckered into helping heroes save the world, because there's so many more hero players they need to cater to. Just no money in doing more specific redside stuff unless more people are interested. To me, that means a fundamental change in gameplay that makes playing Villains different enough to make them interesting in their own right. The current equality just means I see a lot of "hero" villains who have no reason being heroes in any capacity, other than the player perception of 'blueside is better, and it's easier to find teams'. The two most fundamental ways I can think of would either be in gameplay itself, or the rewards. Rewards seem to be a good first step, as changes in the gameplay to cater more to various villain motivations would take a lot more work and effort. Obviously not something they're willing to do at the moment with such a smaller playerbase than blueside. As am I. It won't get any better until there's more redside players to encourage the Dev's to develop more for them specifically. So you don't like my idea? Again, what would YOU do to make redside a more interesting and unique experience from blueside, to draw more players to stay and/or become villains? That was the point of this, not to merely debate the merits of the first suggestion I popped out with, but get kind of a 'thinktank' going that might help the Dev's figure out ways to make redside more appealing. With redside already created, I really believe it somehow starts with the rewards. |
Also I like that right now I can get inf, a drop and xp. I'd rather NOT have to make a choice in that.
/unsigned.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
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The give and take you suggest would be taken in terms of what it costs you, not what it gets you - unless the reward is so useful skipping it would be a mistake, and that'd be a mistake too.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Then to get that and the goodie would mean the goodie would be a pretty piece of useless data in your tray, because to keep it balanced with heroes just getting the regular xp/inf instead of the more specialized villain 'cherry picking' choices, would mean the Temp Power would be pretty much effectively worthless. The Death Ray of Doom would barely hit, and when it did, would probably do brawl damage or something. I could see hero players complaining that villains get all the 'good stuff' in Temp Powers and whatnot anyway. There's gotta be a balance of give and take to justify it.
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I don't think new rewards will fix Redside issues. The problem runs deeper that, or it seems so to me. While I would like to see it become more appealing to the playerbase, I don't have any suggestions to make it so, or I'd be throwing them out there.
I do happen to like playing villains, and still make them, but I think this comes down to a problem that tends to happen in games with two factions - one nearly always ends up more popular than the other. So I think it's more about not failing players who like to play villains and insuring they get content so their characters have stuff to do than it does to finding a way to convert players from blue to red.
I think the way things are now are the best they have been in a long time (not the best of all possible City of Heroes/Villains, but better than the past). And by that I mean the way the devs have blurred the lines - any character can access red or blue content and any character can team up for much of the endgame content without the need to go rogue or vigilante.
Not that it can't be improved or that distinctiveness can't be added to make CoV more appealing, but I think doing it in a way that gives with one hand and takes with another will get reactions like Bad_influence's, which I think is fairly reasonable. I think any changes that are actually to be for the better should not directly impact infamy gain or XP.
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I really don't think the problem of rewards for villains is practical. At least, it isn't for me. I can play pretend and accept that a benefit I'm told I got and I can do what I can to spin it in a way that makes sense for my villains. The problem is that the benefits the game pretends to offer us are just crap a lot of the time, and often unbefitting a good villain.
Even if we pretended we got everything we got everything the game told us we got and it was totally real... What do we really get? We work with Operative Kirkland, and when all is said and done, what do we get? Zilch. Well, "money," I guess, but the jerk doesn't even say that. Do we get an artefact of power? No. Does Arachnos owe us a favour? No. Do we learn something major which could potentially help us in our future endeavours? Of course not. Or let's say we work with Johnny Sonata to "save" his soul. At the end of the day, what do we leave with? Money, again, but so what? We never get an edge on the Wailers, we never get an angle on Johnny... Hell, we don't even get "power."
Well, OK, but if that's the case, then why do I praise the Dean/Leonard arc so much when I'm left with nothing but money by the end? There are a couple of reasons for that. First of all, I don't quite leave with nothing - I leave with a strong sense of satisfaction. I didn't just get money, I got PROTEAN'S money. Sure, it's cool that I have them, but what's truly awesome is that he DOESN'T have it. Sure, the money's good, but the satisfaction of imagining the jerk angrily stomping on his hat when he finds his account drained is worth so much more!
Secondly, we leave with a clear victory for ourselves. Dean's a door mouse, Leonard is cowed, Protean is poor and beat to all hell, and the only one standing strong and tall at the end of it is me. You really can't say that about many of the other villainous story arcs. Even the SSAs, where while you do gain some measure of victory, there's always a bigger villain who won more. Yeah, I'm jealous. Isn't a villain allowed to be jealous of those stronger than him?
My point is that we don't necessarily have to earn temporary powers or buffs or loot. Personally, I'd just be happy if the game at least pretended I got more interesting stuff. If it pretended I got an artefact, if it pretended I got knowledge, if it pretended I got the satisfaction of kicking some serious ***. Hell, I wouldn't even mind the generic one-size-fits-all "power" that we keep being offered if it weren't handled in such a ham-handed way. Contacts just say the word "power" and trail off into a pause, as though expecting my villain to leap up like a trained monkey at the mere concept absent of any substance or concept.
This is where the concept of "what villains want" comes into play. I have many villains who want power. Of course I do. But I don't have any who are irrationally rabid about it. Offer me power, that's a good thing. But don't paint me as desperate to have it. I can pass up power if I don't like the strings attached.
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This game needs to get its head straight that villain motivations aren't easily boiled down to "wants money" or "wants power" or really "wants anything in particular." The solution to this is to offer choices and let players pick the ones that fit.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Samuel_Tow has a really good thread going about our villains and their motivation and this got me thinking about a couple of things regarding hero and villain rewards.
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Now of course, I'm not saying as a constant, but take the SSA1 for example. The motivation behind that story is the villain gaining more power, and for the last mission they get it, but it only lasts through the end of the mission (or only shortly thereafter, I forget). Even then, howerver, I remember folks complaining that villains got a 'goodie' heroes didn't. Even though it wouldn't make any sense for the hero (in the stories concept) to get the 'goodie'. The motivation for the heroes was to put a stop to it, and save their fellow hero at the end.
So if a villain does a mission for added power, or some other 'goodie' (death ray, magic gem, etc.) in most cases they don't actually get it. Take Paper Missions for example. My villains should have a cornicopia of stolen goods and powerful artifacts, yet none of that's represented in-game. It's assumed you sell it off or it's just another thing to help build your character's power in general (xp). At a stretch, we could say it's represented by salvage... but that just seems like a cop out, since heroes have the same drop rates and aren't going after things just for the power or cash (well most of them anyway
I guess my question is; to keep a semblance of balance, yet make that grab for power or goods for villains a realistic motivation, what if there was a reward choice at the end of certain missions, presuming basic motivations. Let's say there's a story arc to get "The Death Ray of Doom" to fulfil your nefarious goals. After completing the story arc, or mission, you could make one of the following choices:
1) Keep the item- it becomes a temp power with so many charges. You do NOT get end of story XP or Inf. The item is powerful and really useful (it is a Death Ray of Doom after all) making it worth the sacrifice.
2) Sell the item- You get NO end of story XP but a substantial inf reward instead.
3) Trade the item on the Black Market- Instead of XP or Inf you get a special drop recipe reward off the best list (can't recall the different drop tiers off the top of my head... whatever's the best one).
4) Use the item to further your own power- NO end of story Inf, but you get more XP instead (it's presumed you either consume, integrate, or implement it in some way that increases your own personal power)
5) Destroy the item- You get the regular end of story xp and inf, but you get a prestige bonus for being so audacious that you'd actually destroy it.
In each they're sacrificing one for the other, and sure, I could see some of these choices available in a couple hero arcs, but something like this would be primarily a villain tool. They cheat, manipulate, and especially in the case of items STEAL, and in general work toward their own personal goals. I think acknowledging that in the rewards would be a very powerful motivation for villain players, and increasing rediside traffic in general.
Choices like these could be a vast improvement to how villains progress and grow, and give them a reward system that, thematically, is more 'theirs'.
What do you all think?
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.