The Shadow Shard and "gravity geysers"

I want to start by saying that I've always been a defender of the Shadow Shard and the geysers as a method of traversal. Even back in the day before we had jet packs, even back in the day before we had the cop-out teleporters, I've always felt that it was a good idea that people just needed to give a chance to and maybe just get used to.

But even I can't defend those things any more. I don't know if game physics have been tweaked or everyone having Hurdle and Swift is throwing trajectories off or if I never ran into all the broken ones, but I have to say that it's becoming apparent to me that the geysers simply do not work. I like the Shadow Shard, but I haven't been there in a while. Going there now, I lost count of the times I got flung into a cliff face to plummet into the abyss or just shot far short of my target and thrown into nothingness. Sometimes these can be fixed if I actually DO have Super Jump or Super Speed or both active when I jump, as the extra distance these give me tends to make up for geysers that throw short, but at other times these make me overshoot, and there's no way to tell which geyser will work and which won't short of hurling yourself and seeing if you'll stick the landing.

It's just becoming clear that the geysers are fundamentally flawed as a concept, and coming from me, that really is saying something. When they worked, I could stomach their drawbacks, such as having to constantly retoggle travel powers, but now that they toss me to my doom regardless of what I do, the added indignity of toggle juggling is just too much. Really, the greatest problem with them is that they're almost entirely unconcrolled. Yes, you have some degree of fine-tuning, but if the geyser shoots you short, you're SOL. If the geyser shoots you into a wall, you're SOL. If the geyser shoots you off to the side, you're SOL. "Control" simply isn't.

Now, granted, it's the Shadow Shard. Who among the development staff even remembers this place exists, right? But the way the story is shaping up, it looks like the Shard will play a major role in coming events, and if it does, the geysers NEED to be fixed, or the market for keyboards will bloom as so many people snap theirs over their knee. I hate to say it, but I really think it might be best to just replace the geysers with mini-Horta-vines that teleport you from island to island. I mean, yeah, those long jumps between islands are really, really spectacular, and I'd like to keep them, but unless the development team have some way to ensure a static trajectory which never misses, this just won't work. Teleporters, Portal light bridges or excursion beams or SOMETHING needs to happen otherwise the Shadow Shard will never see any people in it.

And, yes, I'm aware of the jetpack vendor. That's not the point. Yes, the jetpack is convenient, but I still believe that the zone needs to support some kind of native travel ability, otherwise it becomes a giant time sink. The four Shadow Shard zones are HUGE, and having people constantly fly across them back and forth may well be the most boring thing I can imagine short of fighting Reichsman for Dr. Khan.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

A very fair point, and it probably is down to inherent swift and hurdle - pretty much anything that shifted your movement stats would throw them off.

Ever hopeful for a thorough Shadow Shards revamp, and likewise rather enjoying the geysers when they actually work, perhaps they could attach an un-resistable power at launch that baselines your movement stats so that their trajectory is (mostly) reliable..

Personally I have always loved the shard because it did force the vast majority of players to fly or TP. As far as I can recall back to when the shard first started that you had to have typically both SS and SJ to use the jump points, and those who hadnt mastered them tended to carry hover to just to have a safety net. Cloud Kicking as we called it back then in reference to an old cartoon show. It was an art form like tightrope walking.

I myself recall being into it with my perma elude SR character back then, only character in first year I never needed a proper travel power for to feel quick. To be honest sam I think like me your probably just to rusty to do it these days. I try now and then but the skills are just to rusty, the memory to foggy about which ones its better to hit slow or fast.

Now that doesnt mean I dont think changes need to be made, and frankly I look forward to a shadow shard revamp one of these days. Id have thought it woulf of made more sense then DA for an Incarnate Revamp, but perhaps like alot of us suspect its next on the list with the build up to Rularuu and the cult of the Dark making a clear reappearance with Wade and the fall of Statesman.

I don't think they're so bad, if you have a jetpack or other flight power, and I don't mean that in the sense of "not so bad because they are skippable." They're much faster than a jetpack, so it's a shame not to use them on my characters that don't have Fly and Afterburner, but as you say, control isn't great... in fact it's downright frustrating. What I do is buy a jetpack and use it only to correct missed jumps. Secondary advantage to that? Since it's only toggled on for a few seconds at a time, it doesn't run out of fuel like ever, even on long TFs.

Yeah, I use the GvE Jump Pack and the Steampunk Jump Pack for that. However, even so, it's still difficult to navigate and, really, quite a bit of a chore. If it worked well, I wouldn't really mind the difficulty, but when I do my best to prepare and control and I still fall short and faceplant into a wall, that's just no fun.

Worse still, if you miss a jump by even just a little and forgot to pack your jet pack that morning, you go all the way back to the beginning. See, if I were returned to the last stable platform I was on before jumping, like in the next-gent Prince of Persia game, that wouldn't be so bad. I miss one jump, I go back to the island and try it again. But no. If I miss the jump to the island with the FBZ Horta Vine - the very last jump farthest from the start - and drop down, I get sent all the way back to FBZ, and I have to repeat all the island-hopping I did to get there, only to fall down on that jump AGAIN since it's bugged, and that's if I don't miss a jump along the way.

I mean, I get what they were going for, and I honestly defended the geysers once upon a time. And since I posted this, I made many successful jumps without being in danger of falling. The trouble is that this is both in stark contrast to pretty much anywhere in the rest of the game (leading to people avoiding the Shard), but it's also needlessly punitive for even small mistakes, and that can get frustrating REALLY fast.

The first character I ever took to the Shard was Samuel Tow himself, back before jump packs and jet packs, before geysers were on the map, back before even the co-out teleporters. If I wanted to go to that island "at the top of the world" in the Cascades, that meant going all the way along the One-Way path and nailing the final jump which is both crooked and aimed at a very tiny platform. If I missed that, I dropped on an island below and had to circle all the way around THE ENTIRE ZONE. See, the One-Way Path is true to its name - every island has a geyser only to the next one in the path, but not one to the previous one. To get to the start of the One-Way Path, I needed to scale Crimson falls. To get to Crimson Falls, I needed to follow the other path back to the beginning. That's essentially a round trip all around the entire zone. And if I missed the jump AGAIN? SOL.

I'm not sure if people these days can really appreciate how annoying this is. We're used to thinking: "Oh, it's just one jump. I'll use my jet pack/jump pack/temporary power of some sort just for that one." Back then, I HAD no alternative. Temp powers disappeared at the end of the missions that gave them, temp travel powers didn't exist and no powers had been sold for money. I literally had my Super Jump and that's it. If I fell off, there was no catching myself. If I took a wrong jump, there was no going back unless I took the long way around.

I stuck with the Shard and with its geysers through that kind of experience, but I just realise that the game no longer has a place for this kind of frustrating navigation. I want to keep the geysers if at all possible. I really like the concept behind them. But unless someone can make sure that those are ALWAYS accurate no matter what auto powers we have that we can't turn off, they WILL keep people out of there.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The first thing I generally think when I wake up is "What can I get to eat," but not so much "What can I complain about today?"

I just think the geysers should collapse into wormholes and become teleporters. No more worrying about trajectories, just quick and simple transportation.

Like I said I am fairly sure they always expected players to use a mix of travel powers. I recall even in beta and year one it was pretty much universally SS/SJ and TP/Hover with the flyers who soared purely for the thrill of it no matter its actual lack of speed.

Most everyone also always had either swift or hurdle if not both due to Stamina which I cant recall a time it wasnt seen as a must by the vast majority of players.

Im pretty sure the geysers where created with that mainstream play style in mind. To be honest it was pretty common especially after the shadow shard came out and was initially the place to go for your 40+ action to frankly mock pure super speeders as vertically challenged folk. Some even arrogently said flying was the difference between a hero and a super hero. Me I had alot of non flyers and still feel with the easy access to jet packs Fly as a power has really been indirectly nerfed to the point it needs real love to be comparable again to the others.

They have geysers in the shadow shard?

Is that somewhere near the jetpack vendor then?

Samuel ... thanks for bringing this up, because I share your anger and frustration at this environmental "feature" of the Shadow Shard in full measure to your own.

Full Disclosure: it is my personal opinion that the Shadow Shard represents the pinnacle of environmental development and beauty that this game has to offer ... even after almost 8 years of abandonment. Yes, I'm including such later efforts as the Eden Trial, Grandville, above ground Praetoria, Faultline and the revamped Atlas Park in that statement that the Shadow Shard zones are the BEST environmental locations this game has to offer.



My take on the Inaccurate And Imprecise Geysers problem ... and it IS a problem ... is that any sort of fix for it would require a mix of effort from the Powers Team (Black Scorpion, Synapse, Arbiter Hawk), the Environment Team (Think Tank, and friends?) and the Programming/Engineering Team (Dark Watcher, and Neon Walker?) to resolve.

The FIRST thing that needs to happen to *FIX* the Geysers ... note I am not advocating for a *replacement* of them, but rather a FIX for them ... is for the Geysers to apply an automatic 1 second suppression of Movement Buffing Powers (all!) when they affect your character. The reason and purpose of this momentary suppression is to ensure that the vastly preponderant Movement Modifier affecting your character will be due to the action/influence of the Geyser, so as to keep things as close to a reference "benchmark" as possible, without putting the onus of "Zero-ing" out Movement Modifiers on the Player in a way which is tedious and annoying.

This means applying a *temporary* suppression of all Travel Pools that rely ground-bound "movement" (Leaping, Speed) as well as all Primary/Secondary powers that modify movement (Inertial Reduction, Speed Boost, Accelerate Metabolism, Quickness, etc. etc. etc.) and also the Inherent Powers of Swift, Hurdle, Ninja Run, Beast Run, etc.

It's not possible to "suppress" the Movement Buffs of Set IOs (as far as I know), but the thought I have is that those modifiers should be "small enough" in isolation, when not boosted by other Powers, to yield a "small enough" margin of error so as to make the next set of synergizing modifications to the effects of the Geysers so that they can become "accurate ENOUGH" to be reliably used.

The SECOND thing that would need to be done is that when using a Geyser, for one second after launch, Player control over the character's movement direction needs to be "ignored" by the game. The reason for this is so that the only initial "control" input to the character's launch trajectory is the one *automatically* imparted by the Geyser. Again, this is a deliberate attempt to "zero out" imprecision and inaccuracies that can be imparted by Player control inputs in a laggy network connection context when "launching" from a Geyser.

Combining the Powers Suppression and Control Suppression effects AT LAUNCH from a Geyser, it is possible to "zero down" towards a much narrower range of possible launch trajectories than would otherwise be possible (without these suppressions) such that the Circular Error Probable (CEP) of where the character will "hit/land" when engaging in Hands Free "Flight" courtesy of the Geysers becomes far more stable and predictable through a much wider array of conditionals and situations ... which then makes the NEXT change one that is worthwhile to make.

With the Circular Error Probable of the landing point of Geysers constrained by the above changes, the LAST piece of the puzzle is Environmental in nature. The Geysers either need to "aim" characters to either come "down" to land (by falling) in a designed area large enough to accomodate Hands Free travel ... or ... to be flung "against" a vertical(ish) surface which can be used as a "backstop" to halt further forward horizontal motion (by "splatting" into it). At no point, should the "intended" arc of parabolic motion imparted by Geysers involve "head bumping" into a ceiling or overhang ... which then requires Player Input Control to avoid having happen. I know there are some Geysers in the Ski Chalet(!) and also in The Cascades which basically require ACTIVE Player Control to avoid the "head crush and fall" that will just about ALWAYS happen when performing Hands Free travel by Geyser.

Needless to say, there are a LOT of "little islands in the sky" in the Shadow Shard where you are essentially "flung" by a Geyser in a direction that is vaguely towards a teeny tiny bit of a rock ... and if you don't ACTIVELY control your character EXACTLY RIGHT (with almost no reaction time whatsoever) you completely miss it ... and fall to the bottom of the map. I too have despaired over the question of "who programmed THIS MESS?!" when using Geysers that flung me anywhere BUT when I wanted to land. The ones which throw you in an almost FLAT TRAJECTORY ARC to try and "land" on itty-bitty rocks that have almost no upper surface to them ... and no backstop to "catch you" has had me overshoot and fall out of the sky is just one of those "and I'm *supposed* to make this work, HOW?!?" kind of experiences. I really resent those tangential intercept Geyser jumps that are so extreme because they really do have No Margin For Error ... and the game's underlying powers and physics have changed so much since the Shadow Shard zones were created that now it is a major accomplishment(!) to be able to "stick" one of these landings without NEEDING to resort to a Flight and/or Teleport power of some kind.

Geysers should be "aiming" us at surfaces that are perpendicular to the trajectory of travel our characters will be on at that point in space ... *NOT* at surfaces that are parallel to our direction of travel!!

The NEXT TO LAST thing that would need to be done is to have Geysers programmed to impart their Jump Vector effect on characters on a very SINGULAR bearing and azimuth trajectory (ie. a very CONTROLLED one), rather than being highly dependent upon the "angle of entry" the character used to approach the Geyser. By assigning "control" of the imparted Jump motion to the programming of the Geyser, rather than allowing it to be dependent on a circumstance of under Player control, the angle and trajectory of Geysers can be more rigorously defined and the Circular Error Probable of the destination landing point can be more easily defined ... giving the Environment Designers a more tightly controlled set of "we need something HERE" to work with so as to make Geyser Travel something reliable enough for Players to use it WITH CONFIDENCE, rather than Geyser Travel being (literally) Hit Or Miss.

And the very LAST THING TO DO is to increase the size and visibility of the Geyser Route Markings on the Minimap. As matters stand currently, I have to zoom in almost all the way just to be able to see the *TINY TINY TINY* markings on the minimap for not only where the Geysers ARE ... but also where they are meant to GO. These "waffer thin lines o' Geyser" are demonstrably INADEQUATE as present on the mini-map and need to be made MUCH clearer and more obvious!



Put all of these things together, and Hands Free Geyser Travel will become much more RELIABLE than it has been (and has become as the game has evolved out from under it). Note that all of the modifications I am advocating here involve dramatically improving the consistency and reliability of launch conditions during the first 1 second after launching from a Geyser so as to better "control" for where the landing point ought to be ... and that this means that after the initial "launch" of a character is completed, full control authority (and friction effects) are restored to them ... meaning that Players are still free to "screw it up themselves" if they want to. The difference being that if they DO "screw it up themselves" it will be due to heavy handedness on the Player's part, rather than not being "quick enough" to play a Hyper Precise Twitch Game over a laggy network connection where you're trying to land on a postage stamp ... edge on ... at high velocity ... with severely limited depth perception cues (because everything around the floating rock is just SKY!).



Mind you ... that would take a LOT of QA time to make sure that each and every single Geyser in the Shadow Shard zones *and* in the Ski Chalet(!) are programmed "right" with the correct velocity vectors to "hit their targets" correctly (most of the time) when used by characters with a wide range of Movement Buff modifiers (most of which would hopefully be suppressed, since they're imparted by Powers).



Oh and the Cop-Out Teleporters are precisely that ... a Cop-Out by the (now long past) Development Team. We should be using Mole Points, rather than Cop-Out Teleporters, to get around the Shadow Shard. Yes that means Unlockable Content. No ... Mole Points are not THAT hard to unlock.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

I have to chime in with the 'gravity geyser' love too. I really do like them conceptually and enjoy the Shadow Shard. I spent an evening or two just hopping around and exploring, but I'm prone to just exploring sometimes.

The last couple times I did it, I had SS and SJ on the whole time, and had little problems, mostly owing to SJ's control keeping me from overshooting. Also, I did have to pop on the temp jetpack here and there. I've never found them to be amazingly accurate.

As for a fix? I'm not sure it'd be possible without having to re-write how they work to begin with. Recently Zwillinger posted about bases...

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger When it comes to bases we tread very lightly. It's a legacy system which takes a significant amount of time to reverse engineer any time we want to do *anything* to it. Because player bases are tied to it, and subsequenty a significant investment of your time, anything we do is going to be done in a methodical and cautious manner.

If bases are a 'legacy system' they have to reverse engineer... I can't imagine what they think of the geysers. They've been around pretty much since the game was created, and they haven't designed anything really similar since.

Which is kind of a shame, 'cause I think they're cool concepts.

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Originally Posted by SerialBeggar I can't even get the geyser at the bottom of the Ski Chalet to fling me back up to the top of the ski slope with any reliability. Unless I tilt my view a certain way, I'm always slamming my face into the rocks.

I stand corrected I don't know how I could have forgotten about those...


On the other hand, if the Shard is going to figure heavily into future content, I'm sure they'll probably give them a looking-at. Otherwise, I wouldn't hold my breath.

I can't even get the geyser at the bottom of the Ski Chalet to fling me back up to the top of the ski slope with any reliability. Unless I tilt my view a certain way, I'm always slamming my face into the rocks.

When jetpacks and portals became available, I used them by preference if needed.

I am not nearly masochistic enough to keep trying to use the gravity geysers past my first attempt (which got me all the way to the storm palace).

One thing I do like about the geysers is they are one of the few interactive environmental elements in the game. For the most part, giant fans dont blow you backward, radioactive columns don't stun you, and you can jump as far in outer space as you can in Mexico City. But I agree that they don't actually work, and also that the Shadow Shard is kind of a shame. It's one zone that I often feel could be fixed just by making it interesting. It's pretty, but there are way to few landmarks or actual things worth seeing (a badge is not "worth seeing" in my opinion).

You do not need to detoggle travel powers to enter a gravity geyser. I frequently run in with super speed without slowing down, it works fine.

Some don't work perfectly, and minor adjustements are needed while in the air. Obviously better if this was fixed, but to claim the feature as a whole is broken is a gross exaggeration.