City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Grapple Swing

Aggelakis

By Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-02-02 15:21 in Suggestions and Ideas

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Look, if you're upset that I didn't give you a problem, then a solution, then allow you to declare it obvious, so you have to resort to calling me a liar, hey, whatever makes you happy. You do what you have to do, and I get this thread to point to whenever I need to remind people how your brain works.
I'm calling you a liar because you are a liar. If you had described a problem that I wouldn't consider obvious then I would have said as much, but you didn't Neither the "obfuscated" one nor the "real" one is non-obvious so why would I? The fact you're claiming you didn't lie when one has to differentiate between the obfuscated version and real version shows that you lied.

 

Posted

The forums need a new icon to let people know what to expect before they enter a thread.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
And she admits that she "obfuscated" the truth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Nowhere in this thread did I specifically say anything about the game or its functionality that wasn't the unobfuscated truth either.
She did what?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Are your eyes in the same room as your fingers when you type, or do they sometimes bang out things your brain never gets a chance to audit?
*coughspitcough*

You owe me a new monitor and keyboard.

And I almost broke my arm when I fell out of the chair laughing.

If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.

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Posted

Yeah, still trying to argue when all you're doing is digging a massive hole for yourself is really, REALLY smeg-headedly stupid.

You tried to be all big and clever, and Aracna steamrollered you. You claimed 'obvious' only after she'd given an example, rather than come up with one on your own. She then mentioned that, while what she mentioned had been a part of it, it wasn't THE problem. How is that 'obfuscating the truth' instead of 'simply being smarter at this junk than you'?

Give it up, already. It's embarrassing to watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Yeah, still trying to argue when all you're doing is digging a massive hole for yourself is really, REALLY smeg-headedly stupid.

You tried to be all big and clever, and Aracna steamrollered you. You claimed 'obvious' only after she'd given an example, rather than come up with one on your own. She then mentioned that, while what she mentioned had been a part of it, it wasn't THE problem. How is that 'obfuscating the truth' instead of 'simply being smarter at this junk than you'?

Give it up, already. It's embarrassing to watch.
Did you miss the point where I asked her to give me an example of what she meant by non-obvious? Or did you miss the part where she says she lies using a sentence with poor grammar as to make people not realize that's what she's doing?

What happened was more along the lines of this

Durakken: I like sweet things
Arcana: You don't know that because you've never had chocolate which is sweet and nasty
Durakken: ok. let me taste some chocolate
Arcana: Ok (gives Durakken an orange)
Durakken: I like this
Arcana: That was an orange you moron!!!!
Durakken: Ok, so you lied to me. And you defeated the point of having me taste this all together because of that lie.
Arcana: Never did I not not tell the truth, but here's some real chocolate.
Durakken: uhh yes you did and I like this because it's sweet, but now I don't know if it's chocolate because you lied.

That's more akin to what happened. It's really sad that even though you can go back and read it that you can't comprehend that that is what happened and will now say that what I just said didn't happen.


Also "rather than come up with one on your own" Why would I come up with my own example of CoH's bug being non-obvious? And how could I? I was asking for bug from CoH that was non-obvious. Apparently Arcana has knowledge of CoH's bugs and noone else does and she's the one making the argument that the bugs are non-obvious. Further more, lying and not giving an actual example in her first statement destroys her credibility because if she actually believed her statement was true she would never need to pull such games and beyond that the original statement has to be assumed to be done maliciously because that lie serves no purpose other than one... So we're left with 2 scenarios. Arcana is malicious towards me OR Arcana isn't as smart as she thinks she is because if she was then false example would have served a purpose.

I don't see why I'm explaining this though. Like I said, there are some people that can admit when they are or do something wrong, like me, and then there seems to be the vast majority of the population who never do anything wrong. Especially not on the internet.

 

Posted

You know, I could argue this back and forth, but I think I'd get more results smashing my face against a brick wall. At least it would produce a pretty pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Durakken, I count at *least* half-a-dozen people in the last two pages alone who are either totally convinced you are a fool or certainly sure Arcana never did anything close to lie. That should likely send up a red flag in your mind, but I am surely betting that it will not.

And while I will no doubt be disappointed in your response to this question (and find myself feeling a little silly for even bothering to ask) do you think that it is more likely that Arcanaville is maliciously outright lying or that you are being stubborn and misunderstanding what she said? (Hint: if it's the second one, you won't know it because if you did you wouldn't be doing it in the first place). Arcanaville has an impeccable reputation and no reasonable vested interest in lying to you (and frankly, doesn't require any outside defense).

So either you're stubborn and missing the picture, or we can thank the infamous Dunning-Kruger effect - a catch-22 seemingly designed by Satan himself that makes incompetent people unable to judge their own incompetence because measuring competence is the thing at which they are least competent. You won't be able to tell either way, but neither one is going to win you an argument with Arcanaville.

-Virtue-

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shidosha View Post
Durakken, I count at *least* half-a-dozen people in the last two pages alone who are either totally convinced you are a fool or certainly sure Arcana never did anything close to lie. That should likely send up a red flag in your mind, but I am surely betting that it will not.

And while I will no doubt be disappointed in your response to this question (and find myself feeling a little silly for even bothering to ask) do you think that it is more likely that Arcanaville is maliciously outright lying or that you are being stubborn and misunderstanding what she said? (Hint: if it's the second one, you won't know it because if you did you wouldn't be doing it in the first place). Arcanaville has an impeccable reputation and no reasonable vested interest in lying to you (and frankly, doesn't require any outside defense).

So either you're stubborn and missing the picture, or we can thank the infamous Dunning-Kruger effect - a catch-22 seemingly designed by Satan himself that makes incompetent people unable to judge their own incompetence because measuring competence is the thing at which they are least competent. You won't be able to tell either way, but neither one is going to win you an argument with Arcanaville.
I am definitely not misunderstanding her. And I can guess as what reason she has for lying and why others are supporting her, but then I'm not allowed to say why because of certain reasons I can't mention.

Also whether I'm incompetent or not in the field of programming or in my ability to deduce things has no bearing on the situation. It comes down to a very simple thing...

I asked for an example of what she's talking about and she provided a fabrication. The whole point of the example was to measure the difference of what I would call obvious and what she would call obvious which is a fair and intelligent thing to do when we're talking about subjective measurements. The fabrication, the obfuscation, the lie, whatever you wish to call it, has made this impossible.

You present the question of why would Arcana do such a thing as if she didn't do it when it is so blatantly apparent she did and even admitted it as pointed out. Your question should not be directed at me, but rather at her.


Also, btw as far as reputations go... I generally judge people based on what I see of them and not what others tell me. That's about as far as I can go here. I can also tell you that people disagreeing isn't a sign of being wrong, especially in the world we live in.

 

Posted

No, she provided a PART of a problem, thus preventing you from going "Oh yeah, that's totally obvious." If you are honestly saying that's not what you intended or not what you were doing?

Well, lets just say you are not the only one saying 'liar' in that case.
Oh, and;

Quote:
but then I'm not allowed to say why because of certain reasons I can't mention.
-is a cute catch 22, isn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
No, she provided a PART of a problem, thus preventing you from going "Oh yeah, that's totally obvious." If you are honestly saying that's not what you intended or not what you were doing?

Well, lets just say you are not the only one saying 'liar' in that case.
So you are calling me a liar based on make believe projected intentions that you have now? Apparently I don't have to lie to be a liar now. Brilliant. And your judging me based on your own projections while ignoring her actually lying. That sounds completely reasonable for you to do. No really... just let me redefine reasonable as irrational and we'll be all set.

I guess the fact that i try not to lie and that has caused me several problems on these forums doesn't factor into your imagined version of me and instead you like your cynical version.

We can play the mental chess further and we can see there is no win for me with either answer because she can just claim it's harder either way. If it's also a no-win for me either way if she were honest as well because in that scenario i would either admit i'm wrong or the discussion would continue as it did with you guys. So it's easy to see that to bring her the most accolades and me the most damage the best option is to lie.

I have no motive to lie in this situation as it does me no good either way so even questioning whether i did or not without any evidence is all on you and has nothing to do with me other than me being the focus of your delusions.

Quote:
Oh, and;

-is a cute catch 22, isn't it?
If I could talk about that I would. Not my rules.

 

Posted

She didn't lie. She just set you up to make an utter pillock of yourself. Which, might I add, you've managed to do quite magnificently all on your own.

Good day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shidosha View Post
Durakken, I count at *least* half-a-dozen people in the last two pages alone who are either totally convinced you are a fool or certainly sure Arcana never did anything close to lie.
Either? Whaddya mean "Either"? I'm pretty sure if you asked us individually the answer you'd get is "both" more times than not.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
So you are calling me a liar based on make believe projected intentions that you have now?
No. I'm pretty sure if anyone is calling you a liar it's based on your post history.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I am definitely not misunderstanding her. And I can guess as what reason she has for lying and why others are supporting her, but then I'm not allowed to say why because of certain reasons I can't mention.
At the moment I am sitting, and only my chair is supporting me.

I assume that's what you are referring to, because it is customary when one accuses someone of not telling the truth to be able to produce an attributed statement which is factually incorrect.

And please stop guessing. We've already established you're not that amazing at it.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Durakken View Post
I am definitely not misunderstanding her. And I can guess as what reason she has for lying and why others are supporting her, but then I'm not allowed to say why because of certain reasons I can't mention.
Here's the thing, you're misunderstanding her and looking quite silly in the process. A flow chart of the progression of this conversation:

Durakken: Show me a non-obvious solution to a bug so I can say it's obvious

Arcana: That's silly do you think I'm naive enough to think you'd tell the truth? TPN seems to have such a bug, fix it

Durakken: Well I can't be bothered to find a non obvious bug and fix it, do you think I'm naive enough to think you'd agree it was non obvious

Arcana: Fine Pets skipped certain attacks, it was especially bad for MMs Sometimes they'd stand around and do nothing. After testing we found out a major part of the bug was recharge

Durakken: Sounds like an obvious enough example, (somehow) not the first thing you'd think of, but you'd pick it out instantly

Arcana: How is that obvious, what would you test? Because recharge wasn't the bug, range was. A problem with range, that screwed up Pet AI, was mitigated by making them immune to recharge

Durakken: Liar, how can I say it's obvious if you only give me the fix and not the bug

Arcana: As a followup, AI considered both range and recharge. If they had too much recharge, they'd wait for certain attacks to come back up, because they knew they'd be up before being able to use the ignored attack. It took tons of testing to determine the range component of the bug (Probably where she learned how to make recluse stand in awe and do nothing in the pressence of her math!)

Durakken: Well that's obvious

Spectators:

Also, the whole I18 ignore range thing is making me nervious about pet AI. As a secondary and threadjack, if it was range that was the problem and now that's fixed (by having nothing fight at range) can we give pet's recharge again without killing all existance?

Murphys Military Law

#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.

#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.

 

Posted

If you're just coming in, William's summary will bring you to speed with startling accuracy.

Also, there is a great deal of preliminary evidence that calling Arcanaville a lie-abeitc who has lie-abetes will cause you to take more poundings than Omaha Beach before the ground invasion. This of course is a conspiracy, and you know why but you can't talk about it (a statement so out of all reason that claiming to be the President of Tits would be, by a wide margin, less fatuous).

-Virtue-

 

Posted

Will and Shid have summed it up perfectly.

But, by all means, keep going! This is hil-arious to watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by William_Valence View Post
Also, the whole I18 ignore range thing is making me nervious about pet AI. As a secondary and threadjack, if it was range that was the problem and now that's fixed (by having nothing fight at range) can we give pet's recharge again without killing all existance?
It wasn't fixed by having nothing fight at range, it was fixed by having the critters not dwell on range for any period of time. They should no longer care if a power will eventually become available at a given range.

Theoretically speaking, that resolves the problem of recharge confusing player pets. However, the devs might like it this way now, because they also suggested when the change was made that they were uncomfortable with pets being allowed to be recharge buffed indefinitely. The old school Cryptic rules said that was fine, but the modern design thinking says that pets are free damage with no actual activation time cost to the player. Allowing attack cycle times to increase without practical limit is actually a balance-sensitive issue because of that.

And it gets worse: we may have never actually *seen* what properly functioning pets buffed by recharge look like, because all this time buffing their recharge often confused them into not using their powers optimally. They would today be more likely to go even faster than before if allowed to be recharge buffed, which means in effect if the recharge immunity was removed, things like controllers and masterminds would likely be even stronger than before the recharge immunity was put into effect in the first place.

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Posted

*clicks on last post to enter thread*
.....

*reads whole last page*
...........

*double checks thread title*
................

It looks like something went hilariously wrong with the direction of this thread, and I'm not too sure I want to read from the beginning.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon View Post
It looks like something went hilariously wrong with the direction of this thread, and I'm not too sure I want to read from the beginning.
Quick summary.

OP suggested an idea.
Idea has been suggested many times before.
Long-time forum posters, who have seen aforementioned suggestion before explained why it probably won't happen with several reasons and explanations that have been presented in those previous threads describing the problems and dangers of implementing the suggestion.
OP didn't like that and started arguing with long-time forum posters about it.
Tangents and name calling started.

See William_Valence's post just before this for a summary of the name calling, arguing, and tangents.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon View Post
*clicks on last post to enter thread*
.....

*reads whole last page*
...........

*double checks thread title*
................

It looks like something went hilariously wrong with the direction of this thread, and I'm not too sure I want to read from the beginning.
It got off topic when a poster (not the OP) made himself look foolish when he started claiming that modifications to this game are "relatively easy" and "shouldn't be difficult" because he worked as a programmer on another game engine, and a good programmer doesn't need to see CoH's code to know that.

Not to be outdone, the OP then jumped in and got himself into the current situation when his showing off back fired on him.

 

Posted

Ah, I see. Business as usual, then.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
It wasn't fixed by having nothing fight at range, it was fixed by having the critters not dwell on range for any period of time. They should no longer care if a power will eventually become available at a given range.

Theoretically speaking, that resolves the problem of recharge confusing player pets. However, the devs might like it this way now, because they also suggested when the change was made that they were uncomfortable with pets being allowed to be recharge buffed indefinitely. The old school Cryptic rules said that was fine, but the modern design thinking says that pets are free damage with no actual activation time cost to the player. Allowing attack cycle times to increase without practical limit is actually a balance-sensitive issue because of that.

And it gets worse: we may have never actually *seen* what properly functioning pets buffed by recharge look like, because all this time buffing their recharge often confused them into not using their powers optimally. They would today be more likely to go even faster than before if allowed to be recharge buffed, which means in effect if the recharge immunity was removed, things like controllers and masterminds would likely be even stronger than before the recharge immunity was put into effect in the first place.

So, wait...does THAT explain why my Drones and Protector bots absolutely have to, without fail, go and punch the AV in the face? Because I know they never used to do that.

Although I did notice the problem seemed to kick in around the time demons went live, and then never changed, so....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
It wasn't fixed by having nothing fight at range, it was fixed by having the critters not dwell on range for any period of time. They should no longer care if a power will eventually become available at a given range.
Sort of what I meant, but I didn't say it well. If they don't consider range, the Attack, move, wait decision is skewed from it's original Implementation. Now, critters that have melee attacks will use them; pushing them into melee, while critters that don't have melee attacks suffer from a seemingly conditionless move choice (when either attacks are unavailable, and there seems to be no wait condition) once they find themselves unable to attack.

Meaning, in a somewhat roundabout way that the fix meant no more range.

Am I missing something that makes that not accurate?

As for the recharge part, ah well. It'd be nice to see a grave knight cycle headsplitter perpetually but ah well

Murphys Military Law

#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.

#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.