That would be nice. I was just putting together a build yesterday for a StJ/SR scrapper and wondered that.
On a side note, I thought I read somewhere that they wanted to take a look at defense as a whole.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
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Hmn, given the massacre the likes of Praetoria makes of Defences, I'd say it's about time. When even a pretty tough Invul Tanker (not IO'd, mind) can get really shot up fast, I dread to think what it'd be like on a defence only and without heals character.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Personally, I think they should combine the [toggle] AoE with the [toggle] ranged and add a new power to it. Maybe a Per enemy Res bonus. Like an inverted invuln. Basically a AoE.
This same concept applies to a regen as well. Both those sets need an AoE so they are useful tanks.
They could combine fast healing and the recovery into one power to make room.
It should be noted that Shield Defense only has 'comparable' defense to SR if IOs are taken into account. SR gets to 30% or so to all positions on SOs alone. Shield gets around 22%. This is on SOs, without any pool powers added to either. Really, that's not very comparable. Nor is Willpower or Invuln, they both have much lower defense and in the case of willpower only to a few types. They only become comparable to SR when IOs are added into the equation.
A more notable comparison would be Energy Aura, which gets to 25-29% (depending on damage type) on SOs alone, not counting the buff from using Energy Drain which would push it a little higher. And that set has an endurance refill, a heal and some resists. Since the changes in I21 it also has the +recharge that was formerly the only thing SR had to itself among defense-based sets.
For stalkers, Ice Armor gets to almost exactly SR's defense with 8 stacks of Energy Absoprtion (Doable even on SOs) But has a heal, an end refill and some debuff. And a tier 9 that gives resistance rather than more defense as well as regen and recovery.
So yeah, I think SR could do with a buff. It does need something, but I dunno what. And what they could do without coming up against the cottage rule would be pretty limited, given how 6/9 powers in the set currently exist for the sole purpose of more defense. That's too many if you ask me, but we can't combine them into just the three toggles because cottage rule.
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This is true, although on purely vanilla an Invul Tank can get some pretty high defences.|
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
It should be noted that Shield Defense only has 'comparable' defense to SR if IOs are taken into account. SR gets to 30% or so to all positions on SOs alone. Shield gets around 22%. This is on SOs, without any pool powers added to either. Really, that's not very comparable. Nor is Willpower or Invuln, they both have much lower defense and in the case of willpower only to a few types. They only become comparable to SR when IOs are added into the equation.
A more notable comparison would be Energy Aura, which gets to 25-29% (depending on damage type) on SOs alone, not counting the buff from using Energy Drain which would push it a little higher. And that set has an endurance refill, a heal and some resists. Since the changes in I21 it also has the +recharge that was formerly the only thing SR had to itself among defense-based sets. For stalkers, Ice Armor gets to almost exactly SR's defense with 8 stacks of Energy Absoprtion (Doable even on SOs) But has a heal, an end refill and some debuff. And a tier 9 that gives resistance rather than more defense as well as regen and recovery. So yeah, I think SR could do with a buff. It does need something, but I dunno what. And what they could do without coming up against the cottage rule would be pretty limited, given how 6/9 powers in the set currently exist for the sole purpose of more defense. That's too many if you ask me, but we can't combine them into just the three toggles because cottage rule. |
That aside, I agree. Re-ordering the powers would be a good step (IMO) so that at the least you don't have to wait 34 levels for one of the three supposed main powers in the set, but that does still leave the problem of one trick pony-age.
I suppose adding extra items to the toggles and such could help? After all, Cottage Rule only applies when you are taking, say, Focused Fighting and changing it from a +melee def toggle and suddenly changing it into a clicky +res button. Keeping it as +melee def but adding, say, more DDR and, for example sake, a +ToHit bonus wouldn't break Cottage Rule. As far as I know, anyway.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The cottage rule is basically "unless there is an overwhelming balance reason, the Devs will never change the core functionality of a power." As such, adding effects to powers doesn't break the cottage rule, as long as the original function remains. So you're good here. And I do think that SR should be more than just a one-trick pony.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
This is true, although on purely vanilla an Invul Tank can get some pretty high defences.
That aside, I agree. Re-ordering the powers would be a good step (IMO) so that at the least you don't have to wait 34 levels for one of the three supposed main powers in the set, but that does still leave the problem of one trick pony-age. I suppose adding extra items to the toggles and such could help? After all, Cottage Rule only applies when you are taking, say, Focused Fighting and changing it from a +melee def toggle and suddenly changing it into a clicky +res button. Keeping it as +melee def but adding, say, more DDR and, for example sake, a +ToHit bonus wouldn't break Cottage Rule. As far as I know, anyway. |
And SR/ Tankers need an aggro aura that is stronger than 1 second. I mean, come on, Devs.
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I'm betting that it's actually 1.3 seconds and someone put the decimal in the wrong place since brute evasion is 13 going off of CoD.| And SR/ Tankers need an aggro aura that is stronger than 1 second. I mean, come on, Devs. |
Why this hasn't been fixed yet is beyond my ability to explain nicely.
Be well, people of CoH.
The devs don't like changing the order of powers. While they have done so, I would not hold my breath for this change.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
The only time power orders have been changed, that I know of, is I think tanks used to get taunt at a different level way back in the earliest days of the game. Aside from that, and even that's only something I've heard rather than have evidence of, it's never happened. Proliferated sets having a different power order aside.
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That wasn't the point I was making. The point is that six of nine powers in SR exist solely to give you defense. Ideally if we disregard the cottage rule for a moment, I'd roll all the defense and DDR into the three toggles (See: Evasion for stalkers, has all the aoe defense instead of having some in the passive), and have only one auto power instead of three that gives the scaling resists and nothing else - the full scaling resists that is, same as the three autos put together currently give. Then make two entirely new powers to fill the remainder, one of which would be some kind of damage, mez, or taunt aura that stalkers would have hide in place of. The other, probably something to give +hp so you have more hp for the scaling resists to work with.| I suppose adding extra items to the toggles and such could help? After all, Cottage Rule only applies when you are taking, say, Focused Fighting and changing it from a +melee def toggle and suddenly changing it into a clicky +res button. Keeping it as +melee def but adding, say, more DDR and, for example sake, a +ToHit bonus wouldn't break Cottage Rule. As far as I know, anyway. |
But that of course is impossible, because cottage rule.
Now, we could take those effects and add them to the existing powers, probably spread out like the resists are, but that only adds to SR's existing problem where you more or less have to take all the powers in the set, unlike others where you can skip one or two usually.
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Tier 1 ( 1/ 1): Dodge|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Level 1 - Focused Fighting
Level 2 - Focused Sense Level 4 - Dodge Level 10 - Practised Brawler Level 16 - Evasion Level 20 - Lucky Level 28 - Agile Level 35 - Quickness Level 38 - Elude |
Tier 2 ( 1/ 2): Evasion
Tier 3 ( 2/ 4): Lucky
Tier 4 ( 6/10): Practiced Brawler
Tier 5 ( 8/16): Focused Fighting
Tier 6 (12/20): Evasion
Tier 7 (18/28): Focused Senses
Tier 8 (26/35): Quickness
Tier 9 (32/38): Elude
You get the Passives *first* (when you can't afford the Endurance to run the Toggles on Training Origin enhancements), and you do so in order of Melee-AoE-Ranged. After Practiced Brawler, you get the Toggles second, again in order of Melee-AoE-Ranged. Last you get Quickness ... and Evasion.
If I was redesigning Super Reflexes from scratch, this is how I'd be doing it. I'd also give Practiced Brawler a +5% Resist All Damage and allow it to be slotted for Resistance IO Sets so we'd finally have somewhere to put those Resistance IO Procs that add to Defense which somehow never seemed to make it into the Defense Sets for IOs.
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When proposing changes, I like to have a strong link to concept and your change makes very little conceptual sense. If anything, it's *harder* to dodge a tornado of psionic energy, a shower of brimstone or a curtain of bullets than it is to dodge a focused burst of psionics, a stream of heat or even a shot specifically aimed at your face.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Tier 1 ( 1/ 1): Dodge
Tier 2 ( 1/ 2): Evasion Tier 3 ( 2/ 4): Lucky Tier 4 ( 6/10): Practiced Brawler Tier 5 ( 8/16): Focused Fighting Tier 6 (12/20): Evasion Tier 7 (18/28): Focused Senses Tier 8 (26/35): Quickness Tier 9 (32/38): Elude You get the Passives *first* (when you can't afford the Endurance to run the Toggles on Training Origin enhancements), and you do so in order of Melee-AoE-Ranged. After Practiced Brawler, you get the Toggles second, again in order of Melee-AoE-Ranged. Last you get Quickness ... and Evasion. If I was redesigning Super Reflexes from scratch, this is how I'd be doing it. I'd also give Practiced Brawler a +5% Resist All Damage and allow it to be slotted for Resistance IO Sets so we'd finally have somewhere to put those Resistance IO Procs that add to Defense which somehow never seemed to make it into the Defense Sets for IOs. |
Putting AoE defense before Ranged is just bad (especially considering there are more ranged attacks than there are AoE...every enemy has a ranged attack, not all of them have AoEs).
How I'd revise Super Reflexes? Well, I'd keep it the same. If we really needed to relieve the lack of AoE defense, pushing the set to open powers sooner (only for SR) might do that trick. Similarly to how travel pools can open powers sooner without prerequisites, powers in SR might open up earlier than other armor sets. Concerning balance, I don't see this as being a problem...you can only pick 1 power a level anyway, and for SR it'd all be defense.
If we were re-equipping SR in light of the improvement of other sets? I could easily see rolling some of the passives together and/or adding effects to existing powers. But vs making the set more defensive, I'd always opt for more offensive capabilities. A confuse aura/click that simulated your movements causing friendly fire, along with a temp 'alignment change' so enemy AoEs will have a chance to hit their allies. Someone once suggesting adding a chance of Fiery Embrace proc (per attack) to Lucky so occasionally your hit will do fire damage. Stuff like that...
I'm perfectly happy with the order on brute/tank SR to be honest. I seriously doubt they'd ever go back and fix scrapper SR.
That said, I'll stick with my last buff request for SR:
Make PB act as a breakfree.
Allow the passives to be slotted for dam-res.
Be well, people of CoH.
I agree that SR needs its AoE defense much earlier. Unfortunately changing the order of powers is a messy proposition. It's very rarely done unless a set is just really broken.
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Pretty close. It's 1.00000 on the dot though.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I'm betting that it's actually 1.3 seconds and someone put the decimal in the wrong place since brute evasion is 13 going off of CoD.
Why this hasn't been fixed yet is beyond my ability to explain nicely. |
The other Tanker taunts are 13.6 seconds. HOWEVER, they're actually 1.00000 Melee_InherentTaunt. Evasion uses Melee_Ones instead.
Melee_InherentTaunt is 13.6 at level 50.
Melee_Ones is of course 1.0 across the board.
The only exceptions that I see at a glance:
Against All Odds is 1.25 Melee_InherentTaunt (which works out to 17 seconds at level 50).
Invincibility is 1.25 Melee_InherentTaunt
Rise to the Challenge is 1.25 Melee_Ones
I know RttC has been complained about for a while, but never fixed. Looks like Evasion's issue is the same one -- using the wrong modifier table. It gets stuck at about the level 4 numbers instead of scaling as you level.
I'd send a PM but I think I'm over my "quota" for this month -- Synapse is going to hate me for making more work for them.
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Understood and thanks for that correction/info.|
Melee_InherentTaunt is 13.6 at level 50. Melee_Ones is of course 1.0 across the board. |
I've not PMed Synapse before... I'll do it!
Be well, people of CoH.
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reguardless the number ... I made a SR tank. I was playing Just me a a blaster of the same LVL. I could herd, but as soon as my friend hit someone, the aggro I had was gone. So SR and regen taunts need to be improved. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I'm betting that it's actually 1.3 seconds and someone put the decimal in the wrong place since brute evasion is 13 going off of CoD.
Why this hasn't been fixed yet is beyond my ability to explain nicely. |
regen, just needs an effect added to it
SR: IMO, needs ranged and AoE combined and to place an AoE +recovery/-recovery [toggle] have you ever seen a fight where one guy kept swinging at another guy and missing, He would get tired. So SR having an AoE -recovery would make sense.
Always thought it was stupid that the one set that completely relies on not getting hit can get hit just as much as anyone else. Should be some pve elusivity added so that higher accuracy and to hit bonuses don't allow things to completely bypass your defense. Softcapped sr is not nearly as useful as a softcapped invul or wp.
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I have no strong feelings one way or the other one changing up the order, but I've been carrying some suggestions to buff SR in my mind for a bit now, they go like this in order of priority.
-Add a self ToHit Buff somewhere: This seemed like an interesting choice, because SR only has defenses a +recharge (and very negligible resistances) but didn't feel deserving of higher resistances, heals, or a control or herding Aura, I figured a ToHit buff would be a good way to give a somewhat indirect survival boost by increasing offensive power like Fiery Melee.
Also, this works with another aspect of having good reflexes the powerset presently neglects; it's not just being able to avoid threats, but see and take advantage of openings that might be too small for others to even notice.
-Change Elude: This is very strongly personal. I can't help but think that in it's present state, elude's kind of a waste of a power selection. I would suggest a few of the following as possible changes:
Reduce duration, reduce recharge time, reduce and/or remove crash: this one it's partly because to me, elude sounds more like a very short and quick burst of dodginess. But that's just me.
Add a moderate ToHit Buff: I'd say something like +20%, since elude is sort of meant to be going into Bullet Time, I like to imagine your character would see everyone around them as moving much slower in comparison, and thus would be able to take advantage of openings or weak points in enemy defenses, or just attack too quickly for them to even react.
Add a Recharge Buff: kind of goes hand in hand with the ToHit Buff concept, with improved reflexes you're able to recover from your own attacks faster and simply become an unceasing onslaught of damage against foes.
-Buff Practiced Brawler: compared to other click based mez protects, I kind of felt PB's a little anemic. Shield defense has fear protection, built in confuse protection, and adds defense debuff resistance and Kuji-In-Rin offers fear protection and psionic resistance (okay, it loses out on KB protection). So I figure maybe one and/or all (fat chance) of these three could be considered:
Add Placate and Taunt Protection/Resistance: conceptually with it's name, a Practiced Brawler wounds like they would not be easily distracted by Jedi Mind Tricks or attempts to sway them from their intended target. That and it feels rare enough that this wouldn't push SR into OP territory
Add Fear Protection: Okay, this is just because I've always hated fear effects since more than just any sort of mechanical mez effect, it also implies your character is a coward who wets them self when Ghost Widow looks at them funny.
Make it Perma out of the box: don't get me wrong, PB's recharge time it fine for the most part, but it would be nice to be able to have it perma at level 10 as a perk
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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While I'm for rearranging SR's powers to match Tanker/Brutes order.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Pretty much what the title says;
Level 1 - Focused Fighting Level 2 - Focused Sense Level 4 - Dodge Level 10 - Practised Brawler Level 16 - Evasion Level 20 - Lucky Level 28 - Agile Level 35 - Quickness Level 38 - Elude Putting it bluntly, having a total AoE hole in a set that focuses purely on positional defences is daft and annoying in equal measure, given that AoE covers not just ranged AoE but melee as well, the supposed focus of a Scrapper. Brutes get their Evasion at level 20. Tanks get theirs at 12, for heaven sakes. Yes, they have defence as their primary, and it has a taunt aura baked in, but what possible logic dictates it equal that Scrappers and Stalkers have to wait 34 levels before they get actual AoE protection? Stalkers at least have hide, and Lucky is baked into their version of Evasion. Scrappers get up to a measly 7% at level 28, before finally getting Evasion at 35. Given that defences have changed a lot since their creation, and that currently everything SR apparently does 'well' looks to be overshadowed by pretty much every other set (WP; has high defences, regen and resistances. Shield; comparative defences, better offence. Invulnerability, even, can get massive defences with some IO slotting, although admittedly thats not a base layer to work off) So, would it really be a bad thing to give SR it's main defensive powers at a more sensible level? Just my 2 inf. |
but what possible logic dictates it equal that Scrappers and Stalkers have to wait 34 levels before they get actual AoE protection?
Hence why it was changed for Brutes and Tankers when it was ported. Let's not forget it was a different game before then, and while still suckie, was just how it was. Now it's a matter of them not rearranging the order of powers easily.
However, I'm not sure I care for the idea of Quickness at lvl 35. And I'm sure this is one of the reasons they haven't rearranged the set on Scrappers. Because there are possibly players out there who want Quickness at lvl 20.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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No thank you. I'd rather it not have a per enemy power added to it.
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Originally Posted by Twigman
Personally, I think they should combine the [toggle] AoE with the [toggle] ranged and add a new power to it. Maybe a Per enemy Res bonus. Like an inverted invuln. Basically a AoE.
This same concept applies to a regen as well. Both those sets need an AoE so they are useful tanks. They could combine fast healing and the recovery into one power to make room. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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The "passives first" thing was debated a lot in the past, but with inherent fitness its justification is much weaker: you can run FF with unslotted stamina without running out of end in the lower levels, so swapping dodge for FF just lowers the initial protection of the set.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Tier 1 ( 1/ 1): Dodge
Tier 2 ( 1/ 2): Evasion Tier 3 ( 2/ 4): Lucky Tier 4 ( 6/10): Practiced Brawler Tier 5 ( 8/16): Focused Fighting Tier 6 (12/20): Evasion Tier 7 (18/28): Focused Senses Tier 8 (26/35): Quickness Tier 9 (32/38): Elude You get the Passives *first* (when you can't afford the Endurance to run the Toggles on Training Origin enhancements), and you do so in order of Melee-AoE-Ranged. After Practiced Brawler, you get the Toggles second, again in order of Melee-AoE-Ranged. Last you get Quickness ... and Evasion. If I was redesigning Super Reflexes from scratch, this is how I'd be doing it. I'd also give Practiced Brawler a +5% Resist All Damage and allow it to be slotted for Resistance IO Sets so we'd finally have somewhere to put those Resistance IO Procs that add to Defense which somehow never seemed to make it into the Defense Sets for IOs. |
If we're asking for a cottage rule exemption anyway due to rearranging the set order, I suggested this back in I6?ish:
Focused Fighting
Focused Senses
Dodge
Practiced Brawler
Agile
Quickness
X
Y
Elude
Fold AoE defenses into FS and Agile, and replace lucky and evasion with two new powers. Lots of potential options there, and some of the ones I suggested back then are obsolete today. I still like the idea of an endurance discount/+regen passive in X, though. Today, I would probably invent a mechanics specific to SR to go into Y. All sorts of possibilities for that spot.
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I have to agree, I don't know why everyone has such a boner for per-foe buff auras. It only gives the impression it actually has an affect on sustained survivability (which it doesn't, unless you're killing minions very slowly) and encourages herding behavior. Worse yet, the moment knockback rears its head, *EVERYONE* complains about their buff auras.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
No thank you. I'd rather it not have a per enemy power added to it.
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I always viewed the buff auras as a *bonus*, not a necessity.
I'm all for thinking up a new mechanic/power for the set, though. As for alterations to Elude, don't forget the runspeed buff. That's one of the things I use it for. I'd also think about improving its resistance to runspeed and jump debuffs while using Elude.
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Just wanted to point out that SRs cap DDR without even trying to while I think it'd be great if they did something to toughen up the set, you can't really improve DDR on them.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I suppose adding extra items to the toggles and such could help? After all, Cottage Rule only applies when you are taking, say, Focused Fighting and changing it from a +melee def toggle and suddenly changing it into a clicky +res button. Keeping it as +melee def but adding, say, more DDR and, for example sake, a +ToHit bonus wouldn't break Cottage Rule. As far as I know, anyway.
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I think they should add 15% resistance to all but psi to practiced brawler and change it to a toggle that's res enhanceable or kept as a click power that's affected by res enhancements and stackable.
I see the reasoning as being able to instinctively flinch away or roll with punches lessening damage. The numbers might be too high but I know that either of these changes would make my plethora of /SRs much more survivable. (especially in Incarnate trials)
"Rolling with punches" being a description for adding dam-res to the set was something I was asking for before ED/GDN. When the scaling dam-res was added to the passives after those two events, I was surprised at how correct it felt.
I got hit more, I took more damage, but they got weaker. Instead of being able to dodge out right because of the pain I was enduring, I was rolling with the hits more.
While allowing the passives to be slotted for dam-res would make SR an even MORE slot heavy set, I find that the tradeoff would be worth it.
Be well, people of CoH.
Pretty much what the title says;
Level 1 - Focused Fighting
Level 2 - Focused Sense
Level 4 - Dodge
Level 10 - Practised Brawler
Level 16 - Evasion
Level 20 - Lucky
Level 28 - Agile
Level 35 - Quickness
Level 38 - Elude
Putting it bluntly, having a total AoE hole in a set that focuses purely on positional defences is daft and annoying in equal measure, given that AoE covers not just ranged AoE but melee as well, the supposed focus of a Scrapper.
Brutes get their Evasion at level 20. Tanks get theirs at 12, for heaven sakes. Yes, they have defence as their primary, and it has a taunt aura baked in, but what possible logic dictates it equal that Scrappers and Stalkers have to wait 34 levels before they get actual AoE protection? Stalkers at least have hide, and Lucky is baked into their version of Evasion. Scrappers get up to a measly 7% at level 28, before finally getting Evasion at 35.
Given that defences have changed a lot since their creation, and that currently everything SR apparently does 'well' looks to be overshadowed by pretty much every other set (WP; has high defences, regen and resistances. Shield; comparative defences, better offence. Invulnerability, even, can get massive defences with some IO slotting, although admittedly thats not a base layer to work off)
So, would it really be a bad thing to give SR it's main defensive powers at a more sensible level?
Just my 2 inf.