*SPOILERS* Who is this? *SPOILERS*
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2012-01-24 10:24 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I agree on the "underwear on the outside" part of your post. I hate that. It's people being dumb. It's not literally underwear on the outside. It's a style of one piece.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Firstly, let's dispense with "underwear on the outside" when talking about Superman-style of uniforms. That's a modern-day schtick. His uniform was created in the 1930's when nobody at all would have thought of it was "underwear on the outside" and any WOMAN wearing something that looked like underwear would have been viewed as a vixen, at best.
Superman and the heroes who copied him are based on a circus strongman's outfit. The shorts (not underwear) are a caricature of the clothes worn by body-builders even today and the tights was just an excuse to make him look muscular while still having him be less-than-naked. A golden-age heroine's costume would never look like "underwear on the outside". It would have been inspired by a one-piece swimsuit or an evening gown and more likely to have a skirt than to have any piece that was obviously meant to look like panties. Penny's outfit looks just fine when drawn that way, as some of the photoshopped examples in this thread show. Is she risque? No, not really. Is she gratuitous? Yes, most definitely. The question is, "Why?". What's the point of drawing that attention, to the point that they even paint her panties on her trousers? I say "they" because Penny is a fictional character and ultimately some designer at Paragon Studios is the one who made this decision. She wears a uniform made of some shiny, apparently rubber-like material that one assumes is intended to be protection of some sort. Why then have an exposed, unprotected midriff? That seems downright silly. I assume the weird belt holds up her pants in much the way a garter belt holds up stockings. Seems like a clumsy arrangement,really. However, teen Penny also wears a short jacket. Maybe she just likes the feel of air on her belly. *shrug* "Underwear on the outside" serves a purpose, however antiquated, on the Superman-inspired styles and it was never intended sexually, nor would it have been perceived that way by the people who were initially exposed to it. The circus strong man style would have been well-known and recognized for what it was. I don't think you can find any examples of a woman wearing a lingerie-style of clothing that doesn't involve at least a deliberate display of her assets, when it doesn't involve outright intent to pander to male sexual desire. If you can name any, I'll be interested to hear of them. A character like Swan has her place in the pantheon. She's a Victoria's Secret hero. That's fine and dandy because she doesn't make any bones about it. In fact, there's a certain intimidation factor from dressing like that - a criminal who is accosted by a hero in nothing but lingerie has to ask himself what defenses this hero has that he's not seeing. Penny's outfit is basically pandering. She's wearing a protective uniform that covers her up and that could have had thousands of different patterns imposed onto it that would have been cool and unique. Instead, the pattern that was chosen was to literally paint her underwear onto her uniform since we couldn't see it under the uniform. If anything, the one thing that actually offends me about the design is not the sexuality of it. It's the idea in some graphic designer's head that the only way that I, the player, can recognize this character as female and appreciate her as female is to spell it out and clobber me over the head with it, as if I'm too stupid or loutish to appreciate anything other than lingerie on a woman. |
The exposed belly aspect of her costume can just be simple to explain as just her own personal style.
One thing most characters like Penny have in common is their reliance on their natural abilities rather than armor.
This goes for all characters, not just Penny, when it comes to the superhero world.
Jean Grey, no armor, she relies on her abilities.
Storm, no armor, she relies on her abilities.
This is just how it goes in this genre when it comes to the ideas of wearing armor.
Spider-Man would be served well by wearing a bit of kevlar, he doesnt. He relies on his agility (which wouldn't really be hampered by a kevlar vest), spider-sense, and general toughness (which doesnt include being bullet proof).
Basically, Penny's outfit is about looking good.
The problem with that, isn't that it doesn't give protection, the problem with that, is it comes down to personal style on what looks good or not.
And in the case of the dev artist team, sadly they have to put up with people who obviously don't get that fact of the comic book genre and need their realistic outfits, because they don't have the imagination it requires to remember this is exactly what comic books have been about since the beginning. Visuals.
In comics, a character has armor only when it works for that character's history (like Iron making a suit as his power source).
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The BrandX Collection
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Although, in the case of Anime and armor, the less it covers the more hit points it has.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The problem with that, isn't that it doesn't give protection, the problem with that, is it comes down to personal style on what looks good or not.
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Penny's personal style is "the sewing machine jammed when I was still only half done with my shirt"?|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Basically, Penny's outfit is about looking good.
The problem with that, isn't that it doesn't give protection, the problem with that, is it comes down to personal style on what looks good or not. |
Personally, I just find it a really...weird fashion statement. It's one thing to go for a "sexy" costume. I make fun of Desdemona because she doesn't wear pants, but at least that's, y'know, a distinct style. She's supposed to look all sexed up. In actual comics, you have gals like Psylocke, striding into combat with her ninja-thong. Fair enough. I find it more comical than sexy most of the time, but at least y'know, it's a package deal.
Penny's outfit looks far more practical here, but just sort of randomly doesn't cover her belly button. Why? Because Noble Savage has a skin quota to meet in his assignments, or something? It's just kind of...there. Not to mention those straps look awfully chafey against bare skin. The posted-and-reposted picture that extends the red part of her shirt to her waist, I think, just looks more natural.
You mentioned characters like Jean Grey or Spider-man, who don't expect their costumes to protect them, and it's true. I'm not expecting heroes to go dancing out in full body armor. However, last I recall, both those examples still covered the full body, more or less. We don't have Spectacular Spider-abs beefcake, nor does Jean share Psylocke's aforementioned penchant for wedgies.
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Yeah, did the people saying that look at the picture taken from the back? I can't imagine anyone wearing actual underwear that looks anything like that. It just looks uncomfortable, if not impossible for it to stay in place.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I agree on the "underwear on the outside" part of your post. I hate that. It's people being dumb. It's not literally underwear on the outside. It's a style of one piece.
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The red on the top doesn't really look like a bra, either. More of a half-corset. I guess patterns on tights aren't allowed to follow actual body curves without being somehow sexual.
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| One thing most characters like Penny have in common is their reliance on their natural abilities rather than armor. |
Against the types of threats that the Phalanx faces, I seriously doubt that any part of that outfit would provide significantly more protection than a bare midriff. It's not body armor, it's just a costume.
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The exposed belly aspect of her costume can just be simple to explain as just her own personal style. Basically, Penny's outfit is about looking good. |
Call it fanservice, call it what you will, but the fact is that many young women in real life enjoy dressing much more provocatively than Penelope is. When it comes to one that is now very likely above the legal age and has a scary amount of power at her disposal, who's going to tell her no?
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Vanessa DeVore, presumably. It'll be a great little angst arc for our fledgling hero to get a fashion lesson from mom over not looking ridiculous enough.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
who's going to tell her no?
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Its just a middrift.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Firstly, let's dispense with "underwear on the outside" when talking about Superman-style of uniforms. That's a modern-day schtick. His uniform was created in the 1930's when nobody at all would have thought of it was "underwear on the outside" and any WOMAN wearing something that looked like underwear would have been viewed as a vixen, at best.
Superman and the heroes who copied him are based on a circus strongman's outfit. The shorts (not underwear) are a caricature of the clothes worn by body-builders even today and the tights was just an excuse to make him look muscular while still having him be less-than-naked. A golden-age heroine's costume would never look like "underwear on the outside". It would have been inspired by a one-piece swimsuit or an evening gown and more likely to have a skirt than to have any piece that was obviously meant to look like panties. Penny's outfit looks just fine when drawn that way, as some of the photoshopped examples in this thread show. Is she risque? No, not really. Is she gratuitous? Yes, most definitely. The question is, "Why?". What's the point of drawing that attention, to the point that they even paint her panties on her trousers? I say "they" because Penny is a fictional character and ultimately some designer at Paragon Studios is the one who made this decision. She wears a uniform made of some shiny, apparently rubber-like material that one assumes is intended to be protection of some sort. Why then have an exposed, unprotected midriff? That seems downright silly. I assume the weird belt holds up her pants in much the way a garter belt holds up stockings. Seems like a clumsy arrangement,really. However, teen Penny also wears a short jacket. Maybe she just likes the feel of air on her belly. *shrug* "Underwear on the outside" serves a purpose, however antiquated, on the Superman-inspired styles and it was never intended sexually, nor would it have been perceived that way by the people who were initially exposed to it. The circus strong man style would have been well-known and recognized for what it was. I don't think you can find any examples of a woman wearing a lingerie-style of clothing that doesn't involve at least a deliberate display of her assets, when it doesn't involve outright intent to pander to male sexual desire. If you can name any, I'll be interested to hear of them. A character like Swan has her place in the pantheon. She's a Victoria's Secret hero. That's fine and dandy because she doesn't make any bones about it. In fact, there's a certain intimidation factor from dressing like that - a criminal who is accosted by a hero in nothing but lingerie has to ask himself what defenses this hero has that he's not seeing. Penny's outfit is basically pandering. She's wearing a protective uniform that covers her up and that could have had thousands of different patterns imposed onto it that would have been cool and unique. Instead, the pattern that was chosen was to literally paint her underwear onto her uniform since we couldn't see it under the uniform. If anything, the one thing that actually offends me about the design is not the sexuality of it. It's the idea in some graphic designer's head that the only way that I, the player, can recognize this character as female and appreciate her as female is to spell it out and clobber me over the head with it, as if I'm too stupid or loutish to appreciate anything other than lingerie on a woman. |
The art department has already been forbidden from creating anymore "risque" costume parts for female PCs thanks to forum outcry. What's offensive is trying to dictate how the developers should concieve the look of their own original characters.
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If that's what you took away from it then I'd say you missed the point. Nobody is really saying that a bare midriff is risque. Teen Penny has an exposed midriff. Nobody looks at her and says "Oooo, sexy!"|
Originally Posted by Everything_Xen
Its just a middrift.
. |
The bare midriff is not the point, at all.
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I'm actually sympathetic to this viewpoint. If it was just the jacket, I'd probably let it go. It's not just the jacket, though. It's the costume pattern taken as a whole.|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
The red on the top doesn't really look like a bra, either. More of a half-corset. I guess patterns on tights aren't allowed to follow actual body curves without being somehow sexual.
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You know how Batman eventually justified the bat logo on his chest as a distraction to encourage criminals to attack the part of his body that was most heavily armored?
Penny has created a big bullseye over the most sensitive parts of her anatomy.
Maybe she's just that good at psychic defense that she doesn't care.
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Ha! I'd love to see that.
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Originally Posted by Lazarillo
Vanessa DeVore, presumably. It'll be a great little angst arc for our fledgling hero to get a fashion lesson from mom over not looking ridiculous enough.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent
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Originally Posted by Red_Raccoon
The question is, do you feel the "underwear over tights" look is sexy or suggestive when worn by gold and silver age heroes? (Considering that those books were mostly aimed at young boys, the idea that Superman or Batman were intentionally designed to be sexually suggestive to readers has some pretty serious implications).
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_________
@Inquisitor
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Haha! You know, I almost three in a reference to Frederic Wertham when I made that post. He actually did accuse Batman of trying to lure boys to homosexuality (but I believe Superman was merely accused of endorsing facism).|
Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
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I can only imagine what he would have made of this thread.
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Spelling fixt.|
Originally Posted by Everything_Xen
It's just a midriff.
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And it's not about the midriff. It's about the bikini bottom being so out of place color-wise when you have a midriff. If you noticed, two of my example recolorings kept the midriff. Nobody is against a bare belly. They're against a bare belly *for that outfit*.
As is, a bright red zippered bikini over a bright white tights and a bare belly is problematic not because it's slutty, it's a problem because it's a fashion disaster.
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I think heroines dress like this because we never have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, etc. If we actually had WEATHER in this game? Forget spandex, baby. The newest costume set on demand from ICON would be parkas, umbrellas, etc...
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Weather doesn't affect fashion statements |
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
I think heroines dress like this because we never have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, etc. If we actually had WEATHER in this game? Forget spandex, baby. The newest costume set on demand from ICON would be parkas, umbrellas, etc...
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
As far as Penny's costume is concerned, she's at least better protected from the elements than some OTHER psychics in New England climate that could be named.
*cough*SisterPsyche*cough*AuroraBorealis*Cough*Ser afina*cough*
Okay, the latter could be justified since she's not human, and as a friend of mine pointed out, they're all powerful psychics, so chances are they have a sort of personal climate control thing going on for them. Especially reasonable for Psyche who actually does have forcefield powers.
And Penny's supposed to be more powerful than Psyche, she wasn't so bad in the LGTF aside from being low on the hit point scale. So what are we looking at here? Is she going to be an example of being an Incarnate Equal without actually being an Incarnate?
Randomly, something I would have loved to have seen was for all three Clockwork Kings to merge into one and become insanely (possible extra emphasis on the insane) powerful force, not unlike the Dragon Ball Z Super 17 saga.
Edit: I'm sorry, it was Dragon Ball GT
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Next you'll be telling me my job doesnt give me french benefits.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Spelling fixt.
And it's not about the midriff. It's about the bikini bottom being so out of place color-wise when you have a midriff. If you noticed, two of my example recolorings kept the midriff. Nobody is against a bare belly. They're against a bare belly *for that outfit*. As is, a bright red zippered bikini over a bright white tights and a bare belly is problematic not because it's slutty, it's a problem because it's a fashion disaster. |
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...where is Arbiter Fabulous when we need him?
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
As is, a bright red zippered bikini over a bright white tights and a bare belly is problematic not because it's slutty, it's a problem because it's a fashion disaster.
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For all intensive purposes, yes.
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Originally Posted by Everything_Xen
Next you'll be telling me my job doesnt give me french benefits.
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I got a real kick out of the part of WWD4 where Sis P is upset about the way Swan dresses. Take a look at your own outfit ya crazy redhead.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
As far as Penny's costume is concerned, she's at least better protected from the elements than some OTHER psychics in New England climate that could be named.
*cough*SisterPsyche*cough*AuroraBorealis*Cough*Ser afina*cough* |
_________
@Inquisitor
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Out of Zombie Man's modifications, this one gets my vote. I like the color contrast between the legs and pelvis, but the more I look at the costume the more that exposed midriff doesn't work. ("Look at me! I'm covered neck to toe...except for my belly!") And I think a color other than red would again make the costume a little too busy.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
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At least she's wearing pants. A running joke with the group I play with is that Icon sells sewage-proof spandex. Advanced technology and/or magic makes it repel the stench, and everything else. I feel sorry for the poor saps who have exposed skin below the waist. |
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
I think heroines dress like this because we never have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, etc. If we actually had WEATHER in this game? Forget spandex, baby. The newest costume set on demand from ICON would be parkas, umbrellas, etc...
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I do like that one as well, as it ties together the top and the bottom and makes it look like a single piece, just broken up with some belts.|
Originally Posted by Chris_Zuercher
Out of Zombie Man's modifications, this one gets my vote. I like the color contrast between the legs and pelvis, but the more I look at the costume the more that exposed midriff doesn't work. ("Look at me! I'm covered neck to toe...except for my belly!") And I think a color other than red would again make the costume a little too busy.
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Judging from the zippers, it may have even been designed that way and then later modified. Otherwise the short little zipper on the bottom doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
It also keeps the white, and for some reason the black tights on the bottom just doesn't look very good to me.
New entry, and IMO, the best way to save the midriff (and keep in mind that the seams would be more pronounced on the real textures):
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Honestly, it's tough to find any female superheroes who don't pander to male desires (the nature of the genre, I suppose) but here is one of the few that is defintely not overtly sexy, and yet she clearly sports the "panties outside the tights" look. (Also worth noting that this character's adolescent daughter wears the same costume design, as does the whole family).
Searching in google images, I also see both Batgirl and Hawkgirl have worn "panties on the outside" costumes, not unlike their male counterparts. Obviously this look was never as popular with female characters as male, but hardly unknown either.
Really, I think it's a double standard. Males wear this style and it's a body builder outfit, women wear it and it's lignerie. Yes, I realize attitudes were different in the 1930's, but gender-based double standards were the norm then--I'd like to think that's not the case now.