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Forgive me, I was in the airport replying from my phone, and I'm still unsure of my new phone's interface. Perhaps I should explain my thought process.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
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On the surface, it seemed like a great idea. I imagined the ability on my tank. I would have a decent damage buff before aggroing the spawns, allowing me to gain threat more easily and have a larger impact on the outcome of the fight. In the long run, however, I would have very little of this damage buff, meaning that overall balance shouldn't be affected too greatly. Following these thoughts, I posted rather quickly.
Then I went through security and had some time to think about it. I edited in my revised feelings, noting how it rewards tankers for not having aggro and how it could be open to abuse. I gave a few quick examples and a brief explanation before I screwed up posting it from my phone and had to start all over.
None of this is to mention that my edit happened a day before you even mentioned the first two posts that agreed with the idea.
There's a lesson in this somewhere. I'm not sure whether it's one about "think before you speak" or just "don't post from a phone." I'm also not sure who it's for.
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The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Newp.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The first post you linked to seemed to be in jest.
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Well, I wouldn't pay a dollar for it for realz, but I shouldn't have to if it's an inherent.
I do see some problems with it: the main problem is it would encourage a tank to stand off in a corner by himself somewhere and single pull critters to him one at a time.
However, if tanks' playstyle with the Anger mechanic continues to be the same playstyle as it is now without the Anger mechanic, think I think it would be a net gain for everyone.
No one in this thread needs to be reminded that Threat is inextricably linked to damage. More damage done = more threat generated = more baddies hitting you instead of the squishies.
The argument that tanks will be punished for attacking larger groups of foes is a false argument, because at no time does the Anger mechanic decrease the damage the tanker does compared to the amount of damage the same tank would do in the same situation without the Anger mechanic. That argument should be changed to say that a tank with the Anger mechanic would be rewarded more for attacking smaller groups of foes as opposed to larger ones.
The argument that tanks will lose aggro once the Anger bar is empty is a false argument as well. Since the tank will be doing the exact same amount of damage with an empty Anger bar as he would have been doing without the Anger mechanic, then any aggro lost as a result of the empty Anger bar would have been aggro he would not have gotten to begin with if the Anger mechanic did not exist.
Teal Deer:
As long as tanks' playstyles do not significantly change as a result of this mechanic, I'd get behind it. It's a short term damage buff that decays very quickly. Considering how fast it decays, it's probably the equivalent of eating a Big Red before jumping into a group of baddies.
"Everybody wants to change the world, but nobody wants to change themselves." -Tolstoy
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I think one key thing you are forgetting here is that if Tanks get a new inherent Anger, then their inherent now Gauntlet will no longer exist. Then tanks will have even more trouble gaining aggro.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
I think one key thing people are forgetting here is Gauntlet. A Tanker's attacks do AOE threat, multiple that by this new damage mechanic and a couple of hits and the spawn will be focused on you.
Yes you could theoretically have a really good Brute Taunt the group, maintain aggro and then do that... or you could just play Tank and invite a Blaster and do the same thing much easier? |
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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You can have two inherents Brutes do. Fury and the single-target gauntlet.
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Originally Posted by _Pine_
I think one key thing you are forgetting here is that if Tanks get a new inherent Anger, then their inherent now Gauntlet will no longer exist. Then tanks will have even more trouble gaining aggro.
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Quote:
And Stalkers currently have three.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
You can have two inherents Brutes do. Fury and the single-target gauntlet.
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The original Assassination mechanic, the Demoralizing effect and Team Crits.
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The term "inherent" as an archetype property has never actually mapped to anything in particular. Its a made-up concept that the devs can do whatever they want with, that doesn't have any particular restrictions or limitations.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And Stalkers currently have three.
The original Assassination mechanic, the Demoralizing effect and Team Crits. |
Worth noting that the concept of archetype inherents postdates the first actual one: tankers got punchvoke, later gauntlet, before the notion of inherents even existed. The concept was added specifically when things like scrapper archetype-intrinsic criticals were added, and the devs it was worth documenting these new archetype-specific abilities, and decided to put an icon in the buff bar that explained them. This buff bar icon required adding a passive power to all the appropriate characters that would do nothing except put an icon in the buff bar with the help text. The way the devs did this was to add an Inherent Power: the Inherent set is a powerset all characters get (power prerequisites ensure only the right characters get the right powers). And its for that reason (mainly) these archetype-wide buffs became "archetype inherents."
But its important to note that of the first three "inherent powers" - Gauntlet, Criticals, and Defiance - two did absolutely nothing (except display help text). Only Defiance actually did anything mechanically.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Whom are you addressing and trying to educate? I ask because this is not new information to me and is something we've discussed before, circa Spring 2007, IIRC.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The term "inherent" as an archetype property has never actually mapped to anything in particular. Its a made-up concept that the devs can do whatever they want with, that doesn't have any particular restrictions or limitations.
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My point is, well the same one you seem to be preaching to the choir; an AT can have as many 'inherents' as the devs think they need.
Stalkers have three distinct special abilities, although Demoralizing Effect is arguably just a further extension of Assassination. If they go ahead with the Assassin's Focus stacks, that will be a fourth. Which tangentially brings up an unrelated question I've had; will getting a Crit clear and reset all stacks of Assassin's Focus?
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Quote:
I was.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
THAT'S EVEN WORSE! Please tell me you were joking. If that went in, we'd have Tanker afraid of taking the alpha strike, further marginalizing Tankers.
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"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
I think I'm about to quit again (not enough time in the day to run my side business on top of my day job and be able to play) so my opinion may mean nothing to anyone, even the devs.
But here are my 5c on my refined stance on Tanker needed tweaks:
· Give tankers an inherent Leadership-style buff that does not affect self and suppresses while out of combat (combat determined by being hit or hitting.) It should increase damage, accuracy, mez prot and HP (not resistance, defense, or regen.)
· Give tankers an endurance increase.
Rationalization:
Tankers are, in the mind of many players, inspired by the likes of Superman. Heroes like these tend to be a huge force of inspiration on their teammates. Their mere presence tends to push allies to do things they would not even dare before.
Mechanically this makes tankers able to dub as mini-support. Still nowhere near of a replacement for defenders/controllers/corruptors or masterminds, but able to do something other than weak damage when there already are tanks in the team.
The endurance increase is mainly for soloing purposes for free players. Tankers should be able to tackle similarly sturdy enemies to what a scrapper can, but take longer to do so. Given the current game system, tankers actually use up the same amount of endurance per blow, but do less damage, than an equivalent scrapper. The result of this is not that only the tanker takes MUCH longer to kill the enemy, but he uses up a lot more endurance to do so (especially when you consider the enemy regenerates in that time.)
This sort of "stopped" being an issue with IOs (I put that in quotation marks because relatively speaking it’s still an issue) but free players can’t use IOs, re-exposing this inherent tanker weakness.
At the end of the day, you would assume that the big bag of HP should be the last guy to get tired in a fight, not the guy to die because he got tired and dropped all his shields while soloing.
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No, it means it's broken in my book.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Tanker damage is lower than just about anybody else.
That doesn't mean it sucks. |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
New Tanker Inherent : Demoralize (Borrowed from the opposite idea of Starsman)
Tankers are a force of might who not only inspire their team, but demoralize their foes who are unable to break their iron will. (Or something like that)
PbAoE aura with increasing effects the longer foes remain in it, strength of effects is determined by team (including Tankers) HP much like vigilance is tied to end discount. Effects do not stack from multiple applications of demoralize (No tanker super team, srry) however foes subjected to multiple auras (more than 1 tank on the team) see increased rate of demoralized effects.
Random numbers for an idea of the effects.
At 100% health
2-5 Seconds : - 3% to hit / -10% defense / -5% Resists
5-10 Seconds : -5% to hit / -15% defense / -10% resists
10 - 30 Seconds : -10% to hit / -25% defense / -15% resists / -20% Runspeed
30-60 Seconds : -15% to hit / -35% defense / -20% resists / -40% Runspeed/ -50 Regen
60 + seconds : -20% to hit / -50% defense / -30% resists / -60% runspeed /-100 regen / Small -Special
If any 1 member of the team is defeated, the effects dissapear and any timers on foes reset. (Reward tankers for maintaining aggro)
If a tankers health dips below 20% effects dissapear and timers reset. (Reward Tankers for being Tanky)
Allows tankers to do more damage solo, in teams, etc. Bring something more to the table than just "More damage" and safely keeping them off the heels of brutes/scrappers.
*Note The numbers posted up above are what looked clean when I typed them out, balance was not implied and values could be adjusted accordingly.
Quote:
That's more like it, but I think you should post it in the Consolidated Tanker Improvement Ideas thread.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
New Tanker Inherent : Demoralize (Borrowed from the opposite idea of Starsman)
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We don't really need multiple active threads on the same topic.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Brutes do not have a single target gauntlet inherent. Their attacks are programmed with a taunt component. If you are going to imply that taunt = gauntlet, then scrappers have gauntlet too.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
You can have two inherents Brutes do. Fury and the single-target gauntlet.
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Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Stalkers have one inherent. Assassination grants increased criticals in two situations. From hide and then, once unhiden, 10%+3%chance per team mate.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
And Stalkers currently have three.
The original Assassination mechanic, the Demoralizing effect and Team Crits. |
Their Assassin Strike is the power that has Demoralizing. If you do not pick Assassin Strike, you do not Demoralize. The note in Assassination does mention Demoralizing, but it is the Assassin Strike power that actually does it.
Also, iirc Stalkers did not crit outside of hide unless the mob was held or slept with the old assassination.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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So you're saying the highest survivable AT in the game shouldn't have the lowest damage in the game?|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
No, it means it's broken in my book.
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I'd call your opinion broken.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Damage isn't always(or only) balanced against survivability.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
So you're saying the highest survivable AT in the game shouldn't have the lowest damage in the game?
I'd call your opinion broken. |
A Scrapper is more survivable than a Defender.
A Scrapper does more damage than a Defender.
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Only because the those ATs are suppossed to perform differently in the game.
Scrappers are meant to be more survivable than Defenders because Scrappers are meant to be in melee, and theoretically, in more danger.
They're meant to do more damage because while in melee, they may not survive even with their higher survival values, unless they can do enough damage. These are bare bones basics, there's more to it than that.
But if Defenders were meant to exist permantly within melee, they'd perform quite differently.
A better comparison would be Defenders and Corruptors. One does more damage, but buffs and debuffs not as well as the other. One buffs and debuffs better, but does less damage. You'd think all things considered, they'd be equal, but they're not (for the most part, there is some overlap there).
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Tankers - Highest Survivablity / Lowest Damage|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
Only because the those ATs are suppossed to perform differently in the game.
Scrappers are meant to be more survivable than Defenders because Scrappers are meant to be in melee, and theoretically, in more danger. They're meant to do more damage because while in melee, they may not survive even with their higher survival values, unless they can do enough damage. These are bare bones basics, there's more to it than that. But if Defenders were meant to exist permantly within melee, they'd perform quite differently. A better comparison would be Defenders and Corruptors. One does more damage, but buffs and debuffs not as well as the other. One buffs and debuffs better, but does less damage. You'd think all things considered, they'd be equal, but they're not (for the most part, there is some overlap there). |
Brutes - Second Highest Survivablity, first or second (possibly tied) for damage.
Scrappers - Third highest survivability, first or second for damage, possbiy tied/very close with brutes.
Stalkers - Lowest Survivability, third place for damage. Though I have to say, my 2x Rage SS tanks blow any stalker I've ever seen out of the water for damage. I'd imagine Fire Aura, Fire Melee, and more than a few other sets give most stalker sets a run for their money too. So possibly last?
At any rate, the theory really doesn't hold up with "The higher your survivability the lower your damage should be"
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No, a Tanker should not have the lowest damage ability in the game. If that is the case, then the tanker is truly useless when teamed up with scrappers and brutes. What is the incentive for using a tanker in a team loaded with melee specialists who by themselves generate more damage and aggro that a lone tanker can? There really isn't any. The tanker will end up critter chasing.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
So you're saying the highest survivable AT in the game shouldn't have the lowest damage in the game?
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While a tanker may be the highest survivable, a brute's ability to generate the incredible amount of damage it does, offsets its own lesser survivability to that of a tank. A brute can kill off its enemies fast than they can hurt him/her. I know, I do it all the time, even against lvl 54 enemies.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'd call your opinion broken.
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Truth be known, it’s getting to the place where tankers are becoming scarce and brutes more plentiful. Gee, I wonder why.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Apples to steaks, Johnny. Feel free to try again.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Damage isn't always(or only) balanced against survivability.
A Scrapper is more survivable than a Defender. A Scrapper does more damage than a Defender. |
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Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
No, a Tanker should not have the lowest damage ability in the game. If that is the case, then the tanker is truly useless when teamed up with scrappers and brutes. What is the incentive for using a tanker in a team loaded with melee specialists who by themselves generate more damage and aggro that a lone tanker can? There really isn't any. The tanker will end up critter chasing.
|
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Umm, NO AT has two inherents... your suggestion is to ADD another inherent to tanks? That wasn't made clear. I took this as a replacement for Gauntlet.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
I think one key thing people are forgetting here is Gauntlet. A Tanker's attacks do AOE threat, multiple that by this new damage mechanic and a couple of hits and the spawn will be focused on you.
Yes you could theoretically have a really good Brute Taunt the group, maintain aggro and then do that... or you could just play Tank and invite a Blaster and do the same thing much easier? |
the main problem with tankers, and all melee for that matter comes from the fact that they aren't force-multipliers.
any proposed change that does not involve an inherent that buffs the team or would make a melee heavy team equally as effective as a buff/debuff team ignores the issue.
"moar damage" is just a dumb approach..
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Melee ATs tend to solo better than buff/debuff ATs (yes, I realize there's exceptions), so I have no problem with the latter being more team-friendly.|
Originally Posted by recalx
any proposed change that does not involve an inherent that buffs the team or would make a melee heavy team equally as effective as a buff/debuff team ignores the issue.
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Tankers are a nice balance in that they're a support AT that also solos well.
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Actually, Controllers have Containment (held, immoblized mobs have 2x damage done to them) and they have Overpowered, which applies +1 mag to their status effects. Overpowered was in place far before Containment, only it never had a word graphic to indicate it occured.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Umm, NO AT has two inherents... your suggestion is to ADD another inherent to tanks? That wasn't made clear. I took this as a replacement for Gauntlet.
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You would be giving the King of HP more damage for doing nothing. How about making it interesting and have a trade off. Whenever in that High Burst damage state, they get Blaster HP and lose passives.
Otherwise there would be nothing but Shield/Electric tanks running around with Spring attack and teleport.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus