Level 53 and weaker than a Hellion
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-12-16 06:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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So pretty much you're arguing that "You must be THIS superpowered to enter Incarnate content?" I just can't agree with that, and the game engine evidently doesn't agree with that either. Despite having only swords and highly trained reflexes, Lady Tsukira is not level capped at some arbitrary number like 20 or 30; she can reach level 50 like anyone else.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
I think there is only a double standard if one takes the position that heroes like Daredevil should be fighting villains like Galactus. Or that heroes like ninja-girl Lady Tsukira should be fighting villains like Rularuu or Tyrant or the Hamidon. Hint: they shouldn't. Once you realize this, there is no double standard to defend (which I don't).
Gritty, "street-level" crimefighting is a sub-branch of superhero comics. Characters fit for that narrative environment are not fit for cosmic level threats like The Avengers fight. And even with characters like Captain America, the writers are forced to contrive plot elements for him so he can still "fit in" and contribute and not get turned into a fine red mist at the first blow from a villain like The Destroyer. Anyone with half a brain rolls their eyes at such contrivances, and we mostly try to overlook it. But that doesn't grant comic writers license to extend that same kind of absurd contrivance the other way around, in which a mind-controlled Aunt May is suddenly gifted with enough handwavium to lay the Hulk low with one swipe of a butter knife. |
And in this situation it's not Aunt May being "gifted," it's Hulk having the threat of being pacificated and struggling to keep Banner from surfacing again.
We are all the writers of our own comics; the Devs are just the editors.
It is up to you to justify how the Seers get the cybernetic Impervium armor bonded to your skin to apparently stop working, just as it was up to you to decide that your Temporary Invulnerability was represented as Impervium armor in the first place.
This isn't about whethet the Seer debuff is justifiable; anything can be justified in a comic book setting from Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos to an entire race of superhumans who just happen to grow up in the one type of star system that denies them their powers, and simply choosing not to develop star travel.
IMHO, this is about what kinds of threats we want to be defeated by in Incarnate content going forward.
Let the TPN stand as a individual incident; stories and history are full of things that happened 'that one time'.
What we need is guidance for the writers as to what kinds of threats we will feel good losing to.
Like:
Super Robots
Angels
Fallen Angels
Angels that are Super Robots
Gods
Gods that are Super Robots
New Gods
Alien Battlecruisers
Fish
Other Incarnates
...and of course, little girls.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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No one is taking anything from you. I have no problem with those groups remaining in the game. However, we proved our mettle against conventional weapons time and time again. It's time for something new and interesting that amounts to more than guys with guns. But tell me, what objection do you have to more super powered threats being introduced? Is not the Incarnate system, intended to give us demigod-like powers, finally a appropriate place for this sort of threat?|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Well, unfortunately Malta, the 5th Column, and Nemesis are among my favorite enemy groups and you can only have them when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
So pretty much you're arguing that "You must be THIS superpowered to enter Incarnate content?" I just can't agree with that, and the game engine evidently doesn't agree with that either. Despite having only swords and highly trained reflexes, Lady Tsukira is not level capped at some arbitrary number like 20 or 30; she can reach level 50 like anyone else.
And in this situation it's not Aunt May being "gifted," it's Hulk having the threat of being pacificated and struggling to keep Banner from surfacing again. |
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If you define Incarnate content as "cosmic level threats like Galactus", then yes that is exactly what I'm saying. And the narrative of the Incarnate content seems to take that view (i.e., The Battalion). The fact that the engine itself doesn't agree with the narrative motif it is supposed to embody is the very problem at the heart of this debate.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
So pretty much you're arguing that "You must be THIS superpowered to enter Incarnate content?" I just can't agree with that, and the game engine evidently doesn't agree with that either. Despite having only swords and highly trained reflexes, Lady Tsukira is not level capped at some arbitrary number like 20 or 30; she can reach level 50 like anyone else.
And in this situation it's not Aunt May being "gifted," it's Hulk having the threat of being pacificated and struggling to keep Banner from surfacing again. |
Moreover, the fact that you seem to feel that any character regardless of conceptual power level who reaches level 50 is, or should be, equivalent to Superman clearly shows either a profound failure of the level construct in RPGs or a significant disconnect with the notion of "character concept" and the limitations that might impose on the game experience. Batman may be 50th level, but he's a 50th level detective, not a 50th level cosmic super warrior, and any game that makes the distinction invisible or irrelevant is profoundly flawed IMO. Just like any comic that pits him against Apocalypse and expects him to be able to duke it out (and survive) using the same methods as Superman (i.e., melee combat), or using anything remotely resembling conventional weaponry is comic writing of the weakest kind, and is not the sort of thing I want my RPGs, MMOs or tabletop, emulating. Why would anyone else want that degree of surreal absurdism?
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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If Squirrel Girl is equivalent to Robin, power wise, then this is where we part ways philosophically. There is no justification that isn't profoundly contrived and squarely occupying poor writing territory. It would take an extraordinary feat of writing to make that work, IMO, and I can't think of many cases where that sort of absurd outcome was narratively earned.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
...anything can be justified in a comic book setting from Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos...
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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I don't have any objection to such. Hell, it's already pretty much happened in the UG trial where we fight effectively the Herald of Galactus.|
Originally Posted by ketch
No one is taking anything from you. I have no problem with those groups remaining in the game. However, we proved our mettle against conventional weapons time and time again. It's time for something new and interesting that amounts to more than guys with guns. But tell me, what objection do you have to more super powered threats being introduced?
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I'm just saying, don't forget, that Lex Luthor can pose a significant threat too.
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| However, you resolve your character's natural abilities with some very improbable situations, e.g. dodging bullets from a dozen gunmen armed with automatic weapons, is up to you. To the outside observing those natural abilities are going to appear very supernatural. |
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
If you define Incarnate content as "cosmic level threats like Galactus", then yes that is exactly what I'm saying. And the narrative of the Incarnate content seems to take that view (i.e., The Battalion).
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And I see nothing wrong with that.
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| Moreover, the fact that you seem to feel that any character regardless of conceptual power level who reaches level 50 is, or should be, equivalent to Superman clearly shows either a profound failure of the level construct in RPGs or a significant disconnect with the notion of "character concept" and the limitations that might impose on the game experience. Batman may be 50th level, but he's a 50th level detective, not a 50th level cosmic super warrior, and any game that makes the distinction invisible or irrelevant is profoundly flawed IMO. Just like any comic that pits him against Apocalypse and expects him to be able to duke it out (and survive) using the same methods as Superman (i.e., melee combat), or using anything remotely resembling conventional weaponry is comic writing of the weakest kind, and is not the sort of thing I want my RPGs, MMOs or tabletop, emulating. Why would anyone else want that degree of surreal absurdism? |
I have to say I'm significantly glad that you do not develop this game. Something tells me it would suck and be immensely boring if you did.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
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No, I got that. The problem is the apparent inconsistency. We are "pacified" when outside the buildings by telepaths, where mere dweebs can kill us with a single rock. Yet once we enter a building the IDF can barely scratch us with RPGs and powerful energy blasts.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I steered the commentary in that direction during Ustream, and made some comments to explain our story driven reason behind that (telepaths weakening you and whipping ordinary citizens into a mentally induced rage).
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If the Praetorians have this awesome ability to weaken the heroes, why restrict it to the outdoors? Why not use the telepaths to protect the interiors of the buildings and prevent us from accomplishing our mission at all? If the telepaths were propping up their super-powered forces they way they're empowering the civilians, no force in the universe could stop them.
Yeah, I suppose the writers have come up with some lame excuse for why they can do it outdoors, but not indoors. Most likely the excuse is that they've only got 12 telepaths. So where do they position them? Inside where they could do the most damage and stop the primals cold? Or outside where they knock an occasional defender out of the air with a rock as they race back from the hospital?
That's just plain lousy writing and bad mission design. But considering that Keyes involved leading Anti-Matter around like bull with a ring in his nose so we could steal his RFID signal time and time and time again, without him ever catching on, I guess I'm expecting too much...
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Me neither, problem is none of the fights have been against the legion of doom. Marauder, Anti-Matter, Battle maiden, avatar, maelstrom, malaise, super shalice, super shalice Z, and vanilla shalice were all solo fights against a single villian, uno, one. So using your analogy the fights are more like Braniac Luthor just pointing at members of the JLA to kill them and going "LOL, u die, u die, u die, u die. Woot I have mad skills!" The only time I feel like I'd be on even footing with half the fights so far is when I'm in AE edit mode and have a kill button and an invincibily switch! Hell I think Amazo would call some of the fights so far cheap.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
And yet, with trials like TPN, Lambda, or BAF, not always. Sometimes it's Lex Luthor and the Legion of Doom. And I see nothing wrong with that. |
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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Really? Because I have yet to see this.
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Originally Posted by ElementalFury
just pointing at members of the JLA to kill them and going "LOL, u die, u die, u die, u die. Woot I have mad skills!"
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One of the points being raised here is that trials like TPN, Lambda, and BAF fail narratively precisely because they do not fit within the conceptual motif of "fighting back the forces of cosmic level evil". They might make for interesting story arcs or TFs in the 1-50 game, but they feel utterly out of place sharing dramatic territory with what is (ostensibly) to come. In my view, one can not really use conceptually flawed trials to prop up a flawed gameworld view.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
And yet, with trials like TPN, Lambda, or BAF, not always. Sometimes it's Lex Luthor and the Legion of Doom.
And I see nothing wrong with that. |
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Um... game balance? Whether you like it or not, anyone in this game, regardless of origin, can solo Lord Recluse. Y'know why? Game balance. If you designed a game and made one class more absurdly powerful than another class, why would anyone have any reason at all to play the lesser classes?
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As for the related question you raise, the reason to play a class that is absurdly less powerful than another is because it is presumably fun to do so. Players clearly want to play with these low-powered character concepts. What they should also have, however, is a gaming environment that supports that lower-powered character concept without forcing them into content that strikes significant levels of cognitive dissonance. Comics have (usually lousy) writers to work around such conceptually ridiculous jams, allowing Batman to go on missions suited mostly for guys on the power level of Superman and Green Lantern, but a programmed game engine does not. Other constructs must be put in place to insure that such silliness doesn't occur and utterly shatter verisimillitude, but CoX chose not to pursue those design possibilities. We're seeing some of the consequences of that decision in the Incarnate system.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Eh... I disagree, but that should be obvious by now. Battle Maiden falling from space and utilizing and orbital lazer did not feel out of place. Neither did armies of giant, nearly invincible robots and absurdly powerful telepaths.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
One of the points being raised here is that trials like TPN, Lambda, and BAF fail narratively precisely because they do not fit within the conceptual motif of "fighting back the forces of cosmic level evil". They might make for interesting story arcs or TFs in the 1-50 game, but they feel utterly out of place sharing dramatic territory with what is (ostensibly) to come. In my view, one can not really use conceptually flawed trials to prop up a flawed gameworld view.
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ame balance has been used to justify more poor design choices than I have the time to enumerate. If that is your chief justification, then you've lost the argument right then and there, afaic. As for the related question you raise, the reason to play a class that is absurdly less powerful than another is because it is presumably fun to do so. Players clearly want to play with these low-powered character concepts. What they should also have, however, is a gaming environment that supports that lower-powered character concept without forcing them into content that strikes significant levels of cognitive dissonance. Comics have (usually lousy) writers to work around such conceptually ridiculous jams, allowing Batman to go on missions suited mostly for guys on the power level of Superman and Green Lantern, but a programmed game engine does not. Other constructs must be put in place to insure that such silliness doesn't occur and utterly shatter verisimillitude, but CoX chose not to pursue those design possibilities. We're seeing some of the consequences of that decision in the Incarnate system. |
And it's the exact opposite of fun. I'm thankful we had finally managed to kick the jerk out.
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Well players in this game can't do that, however the devs already have, see Maelstrom. He goes from a threat slightly more powerful than frostfire to suddenly being able to travel through time and space and deliver hyperspace kicks that will kill anyone not a tank in a single hit. How? Cole snapped his fingers. Oh and he has special bullets that can kill anyone in one hit, no exceptions. It's feeling more and more like we're playing with a DM who's realized his players are well coordinated and powerful and rather than try to come up with unique adventures that would still entertain all even if the constant dread of death wasn't lingering over all of it, he just gives up and throws pages of the manual at them until the players get bored and roll up new characters.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
Okay, you're just wrong, pure and simple. I can tell you have never played a table top RPG where one of the players, twinking out his character by either exploiting rules or breaking them entirely has ruined an entire game by dominating everything with his imaginary god. I have. And it's the exact opposite of fun. I'm thankful we had finally managed to kick the jerk out. |
Comparing things like the SSAs, normal missions, TFs and trials is like comparing two dining events. The first three are a small get together with a few close friends. You leave feeling full and generally content. Trials are chugging a keg at a frat party you wandered into. It's over in minutes and you leave confused, with a headache and no idea what the hell happened along with the urge to throw up.
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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Computer controlled NPCs =/= Players.|
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
Well players in this game can't do that, however the devs already have, see Maelstrom.
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| He goes from a threat slightly more powerful than frostfire to suddenly being able to travel through time and space and deliver hyperspace kicks that will kill anyone not a tank in a single hit. How? Cole snapped his fingers. Oh and he has special bullets that can kill anyone in one hit, no exceptions. It's feeling more and more like we're playing with a DM who's realized his players are well coordinated and powerful and rather than try to come up with unique adventures that would still entertain all even if the constant dread of death wasn't lingering over all of it, he just gives up and throws pages of the manual at them until the players get bored and roll up new characters. |
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| Comparing things like the SSAs, normal missions, TFs and trials is like comparing two dining events. The first three are a small get together with a few close friends. You leave feeling full and generally content. Trials are chugging a keg at a frat party you wandered into. It's over in minutes and you leave confused, with a headache and no idea what the hell happened along with the urge to throw up. |
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Players in the game have been doing that hence all of the nerfs and exploit fixes within the AE (and core) systems, safeguards to the email systems and the like, |
Originally Posted by ElementalFury
Well players in this game can't do that
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| however the devs already have, see Maelstrom. He goes from a threat slightly more powerful than frostfire |
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| to suddenly being able to travel through time and space and deliver hyperspace kicks that will kill anyone not a tank in a single hit. |
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| How? Cole snapped his fingers. |
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| Oh and he has special bullets that can kill anyone in one hit, no exceptions. |
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| It's feeling more and more like we're playing with a DM who's realized his players are well coordinated and powerful and rather than try to come up with unique adventures that would still entertain all even if the constant dread of death wasn't lingering over all of it, he just gives up and throws pages of the manual at them until the players get bored and roll up new characters. |
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| Comparing things like the SSAs, normal missions, TFs and trials is like comparing two dining events. The first three are a small get together with a few close friends. You leave feeling full and generally content. Trials are chugging a keg at a frat party you wandered into. It's over in minutes and you leave confused, with a headache and no idea what the hell happened along with the urge to throw up. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
One "probelm" with the game is that it's a permanent crossover event - all the content is designed to be played by all the players - it's not like the various comicbook series for separate heroes, where the stories and enemies are written around them and their powers - so while Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Spider-Man, the Hulk and so on will have their comics made to fit each of them personally, that doesn't happen in CoH - cosmic level heroes fight street gangs, and street level heroes fight cosmic threats, so the enemies have to be pretty even in their challenge level, because the game doesn't know what kind of hero is going to be playing through the missions, and it'd be unfair to make certain ATs and origins more powerful than others.
Instead, the game gives out missions and enemies than anyone can fight, and gives a sense of power progression by increasing the importance of the enemies - so we go from street gangs, to Nazis, to aliens to cosmically powered villains from another dimesion - but that method still has problems for both ends of the hero scale - like the cosmic level hero still has challenging fights with street gangs, and the street level hero is forced to leave the street behind as they progress to a cosmic level.
An alternative would be to have multiple paths 1-50 based on various classic comicbook hero types, with players being asked to choose one at the avatar creation process, like alien, mythological, cosmic, street fighter, super scientist, magaician and so on, and then being given contacts and content to fit their choice - that way, at level 1, a street fighter would be battling street gangs, and a cosmic would be dealing with a giant robot attack - they'd both still only have their basic starting powers, and the enemies would be at the same difficulty level, but the content would make them feel different.
It'd also mean that at, say 40, the street hero wouldn't need to fight alien invaders, time travel or dimension hop - they'd still be getting "lesser" enemies to suit their theme - like they'd be breaking up a multi-gang alliance before it could cause chaos in the city, while at 40, the cosmic hero would be investigating a distress signal from a distant planet - both would still be at the same level of power, with enemies at the same difficulty level, but with a totally different feel to the two paths.
But that would still hit the problem of the permanent crossover event that is the default setting for an MMO - like if that level 40 cosmic who was investigating the alien distress signal teamed up with the street hero for their gang busting mission, they'd find themselves suddenly being challenged by street thugs, when a few minutes earlier they'd been fighting poweful extraterrestrials - or the reverse, if the street level hero joined the cosmic hero on their mission, they'd suddenly find they were able to hold their own against dangerous aliens on another world when a few moment earlier they'd been finding street gangs to be a challenge.
There's really no way to a have superhero MMO that won't cause the various power levels of heroes to appear to be either massively increased, or massively decreased when they team up with each other.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Hence DC Universe vs Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter vs Capcom, etc|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There's really no way to a have superhero MMO that won't cause the various power levels of heroes to appear to be either massively increased, or massively decreased when they team up with each other.
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There is also the question of player choice and accessibility. If I want my ninja chef character to kick Ruladaak in the face, she can, and it's up to me to justify it. I would not like the game to tell me "Sorry, Batman, you picked 'normal' as your origin, so you don't even get to go get curbstomped by Darkseid".
Again, it's a matter of presentation, not justification.
If the crowd of normals v <heroname> was presented differently, it might have gone over better.
There have been suggestions made as to how the presentation could be changed to make it more palatable.
But the more important thing is for the writers to present the foes going forward in such a way that more players enjoy losing to them, or at least feel better about it.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
@ Kitsune9tails
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Nothing will make sticks and stones maiming demigods more palatable to me. No more excuses. No more justifications. The devs promised cosmic level threats, it's time they made good on them. The TPN should be heavily reworked and the rock throwing citizens tossed on the garbage idea pile along with Maelstrom and kill-anything cheat bullets.|
Again, it's a matter of presentation, not justification. If the crowd of normals v <heroname> was presented differently, it might have gone over better. |
@ GG
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| One "probelm" with the game is that it's a permanent crossover event - all the content is designed to be played by all the players |
The Incarnate content is where the line should be drawn. There the rest of the content may have to provide for heroes of varied powers levels, the Incarnate content should assume you're a demigod. If your character is Billy Street Level who's just a normal guy with a bat who fights muggers, don't send him on Ramiel's arc and have him become an Incarnate. If you don't think of your character as a demigod, you shouldn't be running the Incarnate content.
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I was under the impression that the "Incarnate" content was, originally "Stuff to do post-fifty" content, certain people asked for "Epic" content, or maybe just a specific story, and the devs tied the, most often hated, frequently ignored "Origin of power" idea to it. Again, Don't most people actively ignroe and dislike the Origin of Power arc? Why, besides something usually ignored and disliked, I.E. the well, I.E. the "Inarnate" aspect of things,is the content unavailable and impossible to "human" characters? |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The Incarnate content is supposed to be designed for Incarnates, in other words, beings of godlike power. Citizens armed with rocks should never even enter into the picture. We should be operating on a grander stage than that larger than what we have been 1-50. We're NOT. Half way though the Incarnate system, it's the same old crap just with more cheating mechanics added. The Incarnate content is where the line should be drawn. There the rest of the content may have to provide for heroes of varied powers levels, the Incarnate content should assume you're a demigod. If your character is Billy Street Level who's just a normal guy with a bat who fights muggers, don't send him on Ramiel's arc and have him become an Incarnate. If you don't think of your character as a demigod, you shouldn't be running the Incarnate content. . |
It's a war story against a tyrannical dystopian dictatorship, that's all. The fact that it was tied after the fact to an oft-maligned background bit of lore is the problem, not that it fails to meet said bit of bad story-telling. Ignoring Ramiel(which you can do so long as one of your characters has run his arc, and gets the right amount of merits) is both easy, and honestly, recommended.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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The Well of the Furies, the Origin of Powers and all of that is immaterial. What we were promised was "the power of the gods." That's what's in Ramiel's original arc, which is where we're supposed to be hearing about Incarnates for the first time. What people asked wasn't something something to DO, it was some way to PROGRESS, and going from being able to take on whole squads of enemy robots to getting stoned to death is not progression. It is, as a point of fact, a regression.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
I was under the impression that the "Incarnate" content was, originally "Stuff to do post-fifty" content, certain people asked for "Epic" content, or maybe just a specific story, and the devs tied the, most often hated, frequently ignored "Origin of power" idea to it. Again, Don't most people actively ignroe and dislike the Origin of Power arc? Why, besides something usually ignored and disliked, I.E. the well, I.E. the "Inarnate" aspect of things,is the content unavailable and impossible to "human" characters?
It's a war story against a tyrannical dystopian dictatorship, that's all. The fact that it was tied after the fact to an oft-maligned background bit of lore is the problem, not that it fails to meet said bit of bad story-telling. Ignoring Ramiel(which you can do so long as one of your characters has run his arc, and gets the right amount of merits) is both easy, and honestly, recommended. |
As to "human" characters, it's not a matter of origin. It's a matter of power level. The Incarnate system is supposed to make us like unto gods. It's supposed to make us overpowered. If you can explain why your street-level hero is able to catch tank shells in his teeth or why your street-level hero is able crane-kick through thick armour plate, then you are more than welcome to do so and no-one will hold it against you. But if you CAN'T justify why your street-level hero is suddenly godlike, then the system simply doesn't fit you. That's not a good argument for why our characters should be losers in these stories.
There is no reason to have an Incarnate STORYLINE if we're just going to slide around sideways until we eventually tumble over backwards into being rookies all over again, with insulting justifications like that we're starting over, as though the last 50 levels didn't matter. The story should grow bigger, grander and more cosmic, not shrink down in size to brawling with civilians.
This is literally the same as that one Malta plot to discredit a certain heroine by knocking her out, then making it seem like she screwed up, got the building blown up, a whole bunch of civilians killed and all of it because she lost to the Skulls. The two level 15 Skulls in a level 40+ mission, clearly out of their depth judging by their conversation, are an amusing addition. But that's exactly what this is - it's one step removed from a smear campaign. Incarnates should not be fighting civilians, and if they did have to fight them for some contrived reason, then they should absolutely NOT lose to civilians. Someone who took down a Kronos titan by himself (many of my heroes have) should not go down from a rock. Not even a green rock.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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In fact we're given hints of the whole "you're going to get Godlike one day" with the Origin of Power Arc and the Flames of Prometheus. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The Well of the Furies, the Origin of Powers and all of that is immaterial. What we were promised was "the power of the gods." That's what's in Ramiel's original arc, which is where we're supposed to be hearing about Incarnates for the first time. What people asked wasn't something something to DO, it was some way to PROGRESS, and going from being able to take on whole squads of enemy robots to getting stoned to death is not progression. It is, as a point of fact, a regression.
As to "human" characters, it's not a matter of origin. It's a matter of power level. The Incarnate system is supposed to make us like unto gods. It's supposed to make us overpowered. If you can explain why your street-level hero is able to catch tank shells in his teeth or why your street-level hero is able crane-kick through thick armour plate, then you are more than welcome to do so and no-one will hold it against you. But if you CAN'T justify why your street-level hero is suddenly godlike, then the system simply doesn't fit you. That's not a good argument for why our characters should be losers in these stories. There is no reason to have an Incarnate STORYLINE if we're just going to slide around sideways until we eventually tumble over backwards into being rookies all over again, with insulting justifications like that we're starting over, as though the last 50 levels didn't matter. The story should grow bigger, grander and more cosmic, not shrink down in size to brawling with civilians. This is literally the same as that one Malta plot to discredit a certain heroine by knocking her out, then making it seem like she screwed up, got the building blown up, a whole bunch of civilians killed and all of it because she lost to the Skulls. The two level 15 Skulls in a level 40+ mission, clearly out of their depth judging by their conversation, are an amusing addition. But that's exactly what this is - it's one step removed from a smear campaign. Incarnates should not be fighting civilians, and if they did have to fight them for some contrived reason, then they should absolutely NOT lose to civilians. Someone who took down a Kronos titan by himself (many of my heroes have) should not go down from a rock. Not even a green rock. |
We are promised from an early stage in the game now that we will be able to right the wrongs of the world and take the ultimate power for ourselves to do with as we will.
We've yet to fight Galactus and halfway through the story, after being felled by a rock, I'm not sure I want to.
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
We're not halfway through the story - we're only on the first chapter |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
halfway through the story
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
We're not halfway through the story - we're only on the first chapter
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We're well into the book unless you discount the first 50 levels. And five or six trials in, when we've achieved the kind of power only AVs and named NPCs can reach, we're no better off than a Hellion in Atlas Park
Thelonious Monk
Quote:
It's just a simple matter of applying an actual visual cue to the debuff. |
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
We're well into the book unless you discount the first 50 levels. And five or six trials in, when we've achieved the kind of power only AVs and named NPCs can reach, we're no better off than a Hellion in Atlas Park
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It's a debuff to your character that makes you weak, very weak, and it's not obvious, but should be. I'm talking full screen effects like the drunk effect in wow. That should be what's going on.
As it stands now, claiming "We're no better off than a Hellion in Atlas Park" Is wrong. That's like saying "a six-year old can beat me at hoops." Well yeah, he/she can do that if you're suffering from a sucking chest wound. It's the sucking chest wound that making you lose at HORSE, not the kid.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
From wikipedia:
May Parker was transformed by Galactus into the cosmically-powered being Golden Oldie to serve as his herald. Rather than lead him to populated worlds, Oldie discovered an extraterrestrial baker who bakes planet-sized snack cakes that sate Galactus's hunger. May's transformation is ultimately revealed as a dream.[21]
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!