Buff Trick Arrows 2.0! Now with more begging!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-12-08 08:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I would love to see the recharge on Poison Gas arrow reduced. The set needs more mitigation, and being able to have access to more -damage would be wonderful. The same goes for Glue Arrow.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow need to have their Recharge Times reduced to 30 seconds to promote their use as an "every spawn group" useful attack, rather than as something to "use occasionally, when needed" ... especially at lower levels.
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I would add - make glue arrow a NTAoE instead of a TAoE. Kinda silly that I have to aim a glue arrow AT some thing instead of AT some where....
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I would just make PGA mag 3 and shorten the sleep (they are going to wake up soon anyways). And increase the tohit debuff in Flash Arrow, because it's mostly useless, especially on MMs who pretty much have to take it. This would help it open especially since the set has no mez protection. 
This is a small detail, but why isn't glue arrow's range 70+ like the rest of the debuffs?
My TA is merc/TA, so it does have more synergy than many sets, but synergistic gimp sets only make it slightly less gimp.
I've always seen the unresistable -To Hit in Flash Arrow as a pointless novelty.
Against an AV, you can debuff its To Hit by 10% almost if you slot for it. Radiation Infection will have its debuff reduced from 50% if slotted to around 7.5%.
So you lose out by 40% for 99% of the game, and gain by a piddly 2.5% for the other 1%. Not a good deal.
I agree that adding a resistable To Hit debuff to Flash Arrow would help the set a lot. Even a decent unresistabel one wouldn't hurt - its not like Defence buffs get reduced to 15% of their value when you're fighting AVs.
...posted on my wifes account because I am currently free-to-play 
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The problem with Trick Arrow is that Oil Slick really is that good...On an IOd out Incarnate lvl 50 built for +recharge, you have a spawn killing instrument of death that is up almost all of the time. Yes, on a lower level character you don't have that, but you can build for it. It is better ON A DEFENDER than any of the nukes on a BLASTER. Better than crash-blaster nukes because of its built in crowd control, it does as much damage, and it is up far more often. It is better than the crashless nukes because of its crowd control and that it does much more damage.
When you add to this disruption and acid and (to a lesser extent) glue, you don't really need anything else. You have a solo spawn killer that can do whatever the hell it feels like. So to some extent I am with plainguy who said "I think a part of the over all issues with this game is if you build for concept your punished. I build for min and maxing and create the story after I see the build is good." If you take TA as is, it is perfectly fine and actually somewhat overpowered.
I guess I would not want buffs to the set to cause a nerf to the awesomeness that is oil slick. And again, the res debuffs in disruption and acid aren't bad paired with that. TA is a damaging set with some control. If you approach it from that perspective, you will find that it is fine.
So I think we should be cautious in buffing it. It could very easily be FoTM if people were aware of how good it currently is. I think that it suffers from blaster-syndrome (b/c that is what it is closest to) levelling up, but blooms fine end game.
My only buffs (if I needed to make some) would be to increase the radius of acid arrow and to increase the max number of targets for disruption. If you did that, you would be preserving its BLASTroller character and would be buffing it in ways that are good.
I am with Jibakao and plainguy on this as far as buffing it in strange other directions to be some well rounded set. WTF? Why would we want that? It is good at what it does now.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I am saying that you do not need another defender or controller helping that one defender keep everyone alive. I am not saying the defender is soloing the spawn. Again this only applies to non-TA defenders. Call it myth if you want but I have done it and seen it.
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My TA is on Defiant, I was playing her for about a year 2006 and in that year I was the sole defender for teams at times. I yearned for those times. This is really before IO sets I think. I really thought Defiant was the bees knees at the time, because not only did many of the players play to my TAs strengths but many were also cooperative in moments of possible impending doom to learn to play to them.
We're not expected to all have the battle prowess of a Rikti monkey on LSD and survive by any type of defender. You take a typical plausible team of ATs, I think that team can plausibly Mo the STF with the TA for a defender. The tools are there, but they're not great without players who can work within the limitations of them. My empath can't heal through walls, defenders who debuff by so much more than TA can't always keep their debuffs up for as long because someone has killed the sodding anchor first thing, all defenders have limits. Play within or die.
I refute the idea that the TA would only fail if it was the only support set in a team for anything below Itrials or perhaps LGTF, the Hami part but then I can mmm and aaah over that bit. I say that because I probably don't know Itrials half as well.
What I am noticing that when it comes to balance, it's how much time it takes for things to potentially get done that differs with different sets within an AT, not whether or not they can get done. I am not saying TA is slowest because its not just that in a race some sets are more preferable.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I agree with this change. I think this would make the set VERY desirable kind of like the Poison's-Poison Trap Change but even better. Like we discussed before I think they need to Add some dmg to Acid arrow or at least reduce the Recharge on OSA just a tad. |
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
 1) Lower the Speed debuff 2) Increase the Recharge debuff 3) Add small chance to Hold Trick Arrows currently has two powers that put enemies at the -RunSpeed cap: Glue Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow. But slowing down enemy movement isn't an effective debuff, besides making it easier to stay at range. So I suggest lowering the amount it can slow enemies movement, while increasing it's ability to slow enemies actions. Afterall, if it's really slowing down their ability to move their feet that much, why aren't their arms being slowed down as much? Increasing the recharge debuff makes Glue Arrow, a staple power of the set, a much more effective debuff. Also, taking precedence from powers in newer sets, I think Glue Arrow could use a new mechanic to make it more useful and attractive to players: Add chance to Hold! This would obviously be a small chance on a short duration Hold, but it would still be useful and appropriate for a power that's supposed to be putting down a strong adhesive (I'd like to see it use the 'struggling' animation from Frozen Aura, minus the ice). Decrease SpeedDebuff to -60% Increase RechDebuff to -30% to -40% Add 2% chance for a 4s Mag3 Hold |
Poison Gas Arrow should have a different type of mitigation like maybe a small hold that ticks? Reduce the hold to mag 2 and do the same with Glue Arrow so you can stack them to get mag 4 maybe.
Mitigation is the biggest issue with this set (IF you're not playing a troller) and I think the set will remain undesirable to anyone until these changes are pushed through.
You know, really if they just copied over Time's Juncture for Glue Arrow, I would be happier with it. As it is, TA is one of those sets that relys on how effective it is by it's counterpart far too much and agree with most of the OP's changes. However, I personally hate that Flash arrow is not self-stacking and even 6 slotted, the highest -to hit is barely 7.5%
IMO my main issue is Flash Arrow, its -to-hit is extremely poor compared to the other Debuff/Control sets like Rad, Dark, or Traps.
Unlike Rad, Time, or Dark it doesn't have a heal, and to be honest it wouldn't make sense here
Unlike Time, Storm, Dark,or Traps it doesn't have a +Def/resist anywhere
Its-Percpetion could be compared to either Dark or Storm
In terms of other debuff/control powers it is compariable to those other sets
I would like to see its -to-hit brought to the same level as Hurricane in Storm( another debuff/control set w/o a heal)
Or another alternative, looking at both Katana and Broadsword for inspiration and to make the set more unique, remove the -to-hit, and it a +ranged defense in sort of the same way Katana's Divine Avalanche( and assumes same or slightly better +def)
Another change I would love to see is the Animations. if you look at the melee sets, some of the animations are slightly different when paired with Shield, some more than others. Basically where I am going here is to change Trick Arrow to Trick Munitions, that is able to use select a gun or rifle as an alternative to the Arrow, it cut down on the annoying redraw when paired with those sets, or fit better with someone's concept + the existing weapon animations should be able to adjusted to fit. Heck I would even love to see a Grenade type animation as well, but that would require more animation work.
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They lacked your moral support? |
Originally Posted by Rainbow Avenger
I ran a Faathim TF on my TA a while back with a team of 50s. They spent two and a half hours bragging about their "uber deeps" and thanking the kin. I wanted to slap them. The one time I went afk for 20 seconds to answer a /tell they all charged ahead without me (lol TA, right?) and immediately wiped on the next spawn for the only time in our run.
Take that as you will.  |
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
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Originally Posted by shiatake
...posted on my wifes account because I am currently free-to-play
...The problem with Trick Arrow is that Oil Slick really is that good...On an IOd out Incarnate lvl 50 built for +recharge, you have a spawn killing instrument of death that is up almost all of the time. Yes, on a lower level character you don't have that, but you can build for it. It is better ON A DEFENDER than any of the nukes on a BLASTER. Better than crash-blaster nukes because of its built in crowd control, it does as much damage, and it is up far more often. It is better than the crashless nukes because of its crowd control and that it does much more damage. |
Just curious, what if you have no fire damage? How do you light up oil slick?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Oh this!!! I like this idea a lot. Since Trick Arrow has no self healing, the least it can do is to add some +Range defense like Parry. |
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
Or another alternative, looking at both Katana and Broadsword for inspiration and to make the set more unique, remove the -to-hit, and it a +ranged defense in sort of the same way Katana's Divine Avalanche( and assumes same or slightly better +def)
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Which power should have this +range defense?
Mmmm, now that I think about it, this +Range Defense fits better in Ranged Shot. I've always thought Archery's snipe is terrible. It has no secondary effect.
It would be nice if it has +range defense.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Any attack that does energy damage also lights it, and this includes origin powers.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Just curious, what if you have no fire damage? How do you light up oil slick?
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Storm lost its heal? |
Originally Posted by Wooden_Replica
I would like to see its -to-hit brought to the same level as Hurricane in Storm( another debuff/control set w/o a heal) |
Devs would post more if they could say "hi!" without people whining because they wanted them to say "hello".
-Nethergoat
Looking at Trick Arrows' powers and description, it looks like it's the design intent for us to use multiple arrows to create the same effects other sets get in a single power. I know, that's... just awful, but bear with me for a second.
Along those same lines, based on the history I know of the set, it also seems like the idea was that we'd be able to use most of Trick Arrows at every spawn (at least Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, Disruption Arrow and Acid Arrow). So while it would take several powers to get those same effects, we'd be able to use them more often and in larger AoEs than other sets. And while Trick Arrows lacked much to deal with alphas (beyond Oil Slick Arrow's knockdown and EMP Arrow's Hold), it made prolonged fights much safer.
You can probably see a problem beginning to develop here: a set apparently designed to use most powers once at every spawn, with large enough AoEs to hit an entire spawn, but with debuffs and controls better suited towards lengthier battles.
Now at the time Trick Arrows was designed, it existed in a game where six-slotting was normal and permahasten wasn't all that special (and honestly it looks like the Devs forgot that they were also implementing a MaxTarget cap on all powers when they designed it, based on the AoE sizes). I think the devs quickly realized people wouldn't be using them at every spawn once, but would be trying to neuter mobs by stacking all of them multiple times, and so the simplest solution would be to increase the recharge times, as that's what people were likely to slot for anyway in a click-heavy set (though Poison Gas Arrow, Flash Arrow and Acid Arrow could never self-stack, it was still listed as a reason for the increase).
After that, I can only assume the idea was that we'd slot them to the point where we could use them at every spawn, but wouldn't be able to use them more than once very often. And that was a poor decision. Suddenly we couldn't slot for whatever we wanted; Trick Arrows had to be slotted heavily for recharge to keep up (and it still does, honestly).
So, I tried to rethink what could be done to make the set work and be more appealing, but also work with the design intent of the set (to use multiple arrows per spawn), as it looks like we won't see any changes that push the set too far away from that (otherwise, we'd have seem more changes by now, right?).
And I thought... maybe some new mechanics.
What if each use of specific Trick Arrows powers gave your character some sort of flag that altered the effects of the next power you used? Kind of like a mix of combo/bonus system of other sets (namely Titan Weapons, Time Manipulation and Street Justice)?
For instance:
Using Glue Arrow on a spawn sets a flag on you called "slowedEnemies." Following this up with another Trick Arrows power, alters or boosts the effect of that power, so maybe:
Flash Arrow - ToHit debuff doubled.
Poison Gas Arrow - Summons an alternate version of Poison Gas Arrow that has a Hold when the pet first comes out or that tics Holds as the enemy if overcome by the mix of gas and fumes.
Disruption Arrow - Summons an alternate version of Disruption Arrow that tics a Stun effect or that causes -Special.
Acid Arrow - Resistance/Defense debuffs boosted, as slowed enemies linger in the acid longer.
Or using Poison Gas Arrow on a spawn sets a flagged called "poisonedEnemies" on you, which changes the effects of the next arrow you use:
Flash Arrow - ToHit debuff doubled. (You might see a pattern form here, the idea being that using Flash Arrow as an opener leaves it in it's current state, but using it mid-battle would also be useful).
Glue Arrow - Summons an alternate version of Glue Arrow with the -Recharge doubled, as the enemies are weakened by the poison, and so have a harder time fighting the glue.
Disruption Arrow - Summons an alternate version of Disruption Arrow that tics a Hold as enemies senses of sight, hearing and smell are overloaded by the combination.
Acid Arrow - Adds an additional -Damage effect to Acid Arrow from the combination of different chemicals of the gas and acid.
And so on for each of the 5 main AoEs in the set (Flash Arrow, Glue Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow, Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow). Each flag would only last long enough to get maybe 1 or 2 more arrows out so you could change the effects you want to achieve quickly.
The idea is that Trick Arrows would become more effective than other sets with debuffs, by strategically using several powers in varying orders. It would also fit the game description of the set better, in that it very well could alter the battlefield when you used it strategically.
Anyway, just an idea I had while I shooouuuld be cleaning up my studio.
I like that idea - sounds like a lot of work for the devs, but I don't think the set needs any more -resist. Just make acid arrow have a larger AOE.
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Well, those were just examples. I just wanted the idea to be understood. That it's possible to buff the set in such a way that, for people that are happy with the set as is, the set will be exactly the same; same values, same recharge, same effects, etc. For them, these extra effects would just be bonuses. And then for people who want to see Trick Arrows get some buffs, this could add a new, strategic playstyle while also making the set more potent.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
I like that idea - sounds like a lot of work for the devs, but I don't think the set needs any more -resist. Just make acid arrow have a larger AOE.
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It is a lot of work, and even if the devs did like it, it would be months from now when we'd see it, most likely. But it is possible, and Synapse did say they enjoy using stuff like that on sets (well, he said new sets, but shhh).
I'm going to have to decline on that possibility Trickshooter, because it's basically a gimmicky answer to the problem that we have. It's overly complicated (to my mind), which makes for a strike against it.
It would be far more effective to bifurcate all of the Debuffs in Trick Arrows such that they come in 50/50 portions which Do ... and Don't ... stack with themselves. That means that on the first application of the Debuff, you get full effect ... but if you manage to stack the power with itself (ie. duration is longer than recharge), then you only increase the Debuff by an additional +50% strength for the duration of the overlap ... because half of the effect can be stacked from the same caster, and half of the effect CANNOT be stacked from the same caster. Such a very simple construction would advantage recharge builds (just as they always do for every powerset it seems), but it would moderate and mitigate unrestricted stacking of Debuff effects in a way which would be relatively "unique" to Trick Arrows.
S imple
E asy
E ffective
... not being done ... 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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If we are ever going to have a "combo" mechanism in a support set, Trick Arrow will be the best choice. Too bad TA came out too early and I don't think they'll spend that kind of time on an old set. |
Originally Posted by Trickshooter
The idea is that Trick Arrows would become more effective than other sets with debuffs, by strategically using several powers in varying orders. It would also fit the game description of the set better, in that it very well could alter the battlefield when you used it strategically. |
But I agree with your ideas. Using multiple Arrows to produce greater effects.
Speaking about old sets, am I the only one wishing they should make some of the old sets more unique rather than creating new ones all the time? The only down side is that it is hard to charge cash points for an "old" set. I won't mind paying for some over-hauls like the one suggested above but I don't think people would pay for it.
So the only logical thing is to keep releasing new sets while some old sets just keep lagging behind.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I don't see it as being anymore "gimmicky" than Dual Blades, Dual Pistols, Street Justice, Titan Weapons, Beam Rifle or Time Manipulation. Modes and power granting and revoking are just mechanics that make some powersets more interesting.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
I'm going to have to decline on that possibility Trickshooter, because it's basically a gimmicky answer to the problem that we have. It's overly complicated (to my mind), which makes for a strike against it.
It would be far more effective to bifurcate all of the Debuffs in Trick Arrows such that they come in 50/50 portions which Do ... and Don't ... stack with themselves. That means that on the first application of the Debuff, you get full effect ... but if you manage to stack the power with itself (ie. duration is longer than recharge), then you only increase the Debuff by an additional +50% strength for the duration of the overlap ... because half of the effect can be stacked from the same caster, and half of the effect CANNOT be stacked from the same caster. Such a very simple construction would advantage recharge builds (just as they always do for every powerset it seems), but it would moderate and mitigate unrestricted stacking of Debuff effects in a way which would be relatively "unique" to Trick Arrows. S imple E asy E ffective ... not being done ... |
As far as complicated... look at those sets' effects. Any Street Justice or Dual Blades power is the definition of complicated.
I like the idea of the arrows gaining effects based on what is already on the target. If you think about it they are blind, covered in acid, choking on poison gas, covered in glue, and in the case of my fire/ta controller standing in a blazing inferno. That has got to be one of the most terrible experiences you can put someone through.
Edit: Forgot disruption arrow that sound wave cant be too pleasant either!
@Dremster Wrecking Crew / Guardian
With one of the major failings of the set being lack of alpha mitigation, I don't see how drawing out the whole debuff process to include shooting even more arrows will help things. We need to go from 4 arrows to debuff a spawn down to 1 or 2, not up to 6.
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I said the idea with the suggestion would be that TA would get progressively better with debuffs with each arrow used, I didn't say it would only be great if you used everything at once.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
With one of the major failings of the set being lack of alpha mitigation, I don't see how drawing out the whole debuff process to include shooting even more arrows will help things. We need to go from 4 arrows to debuff a spawn down to 1 or 2, not up to 6.
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Looking at the example I gave, just using Poison Gas Arrow, quickly followed up by a slotted Flash Arrow would net you about a ~68% reduction in damage from an alpha with just two powers from TA.*
Admittedly, with just Fearsome Stare slotted for -ToHit, Dark gets about ~84%. And Rad and Storm get about a ~90% reduction with just Radiation Infection and Hurricane slotted for -ToHit, respectively.
On the other hand, Trick Arrows already increases the offensive output of the team more than those three (even without my suggestion). Not by a lot because of limitations on it's Resistance debuffs and the recharge timer of Oil Slick Arrow, but that's part of the reason I started this thread.
*This is for Defenders fighting even con. Takes in to account foe's base tohit (50%), rank bonuses for accuracy (1.0 for minions, 1.15 for lieutenants, 1.3 for bosses), 66% of minions in a spawn being put to sleep, 31.25% damage debuff, and a 9.75% tohit debuff from a slotted Flash Arrow that, per my example, is doubled to a 19.5% tohit debuff because Poison Gas Arrow was used first.
EDIT: My percentages also assume you're fighting a spawn with mostly minions, some lieutenants, and a boss or two.
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I have to agree. It's an interesting mechanic. It might even work well... in a set designed around it from the ground up. Trying to use it as a solution for *TA's* problems, though, is kinda like trying to fix an injury with a volkswagen. It's rather a non-sequiter. Trick arrow most emphatically does *not* need an even bigger requirement to layer multiple arrows before you get any worthwhile effects.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
With one of the major failings of the set being lack of alpha mitigation, I don't see how drawing out the whole debuff process to include shooting even more arrows will help things. We need to go from 4 arrows to debuff a spawn down to 1 or 2, not up to 6.
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Trick arrows does seem to have as some sort of design goal that you should be layering all your arrows every spawn to get your debuffs. The problem is that that design goal is, quite frankly, idiotic. We should *NOT* be encouraging a design goal that will still see you animating 10 seconds worth of arrows to achieve what another set could in 2-4.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
The best buff that could be done for Trick Arrow is to shorten the animation times on every attack from Tier 3 on up to Tier 9. Make every animation for Trick Arrow 1 second ... but "draw a different arrow" (from the Quiver we don't have) ... and Trick Arrow would dramatically improve in "feel" as being a much more uniformly RESPONSIVE powerset.
Entangling Arrow: 1 sec (fine)
Flash Arrow: 1 sec (fine)
Glue Arrow: 1.16 sec (reduce to 1 sec)
Ice Arrow: 1.67 sec (reduce to 1 sec and stop "admiring" the pretty arrowhead already!)
Poison Gas Arrow: 1.16 sec (reduce to 1 sec)
Acid Arrow: 1.83 sec (reduce to 1 sec damnit!)
Disruption Arrow: 1.16 sec (reduce to 1 sec)
Oil Slick Arrow: 1.16 sec (reduce to 1 sec)
EMP Arrow: 1.83 sec (reduce to 1 sec)
Right now, trying to "unload" all sorts of different Trick Arrow powers feels all "herky jerky" because of how much time gets wasted staring at the arrow you've just drawn ... and are holding ... and holding ... and holding ... and straining to hold ... pose and flex, pose and flex ... and still holding ... okay, you can release now. Even if this makes the animations "look really the same" and the only differences are the arrows pulled to shoot ... that's actually a positive, rather than a negative, in this case. With everything having an identical animation time (of 1 second each) you can develop a very definite sense of RHYTHM for using the powerset.
The most obvious solution is to make the Unresistable To Hit Debuff apply only to EB/AV class NPCs and Players ... and have a separate Resistable To Hit Debuff that's on par with Hurricane from Storm Summoning which applies to all Critters which are not EB/AV/PC type targets.
Glue Arrow and Poison Gas Arrow need to have their Recharge Times reduced to 30 seconds to promote their use as an "every spawn group" useful attack, rather than as something to "use occasionally, when needed" ... especially at lower levels.