Be that as it may, I've never had a problem landing mobs exactly where I wanted them, whether I'd bothered to -kb them beforehand or not.
There are only two kinds of maps in the game: indoor and outdoor. Indoors, there are always walls and corners to work with, and if a tank can herd mobs to them, so can I. This is quite aside from the fact that I routinely drop mobs around the melee toons even when they are affected by the kb, by simply accounting for that distance in my placement. It's just a matter of remembering whether they can be kb'd at the time, or not. Outdoors, it's even easier. I either launch them straight up, allowing them to drop down where I want them (with the falling damage), or I hover over them and fire straight down. All that kb just turns into an undignified bounce.
As for the recharge on gravity distortion field, your recharge on that might be 4 minutes. Mine's not. Can't look at the moment, since I'm not home, and the base number is pretty meaningless anyway, given the number of +recharge procs I have scattered around the build, but it's certainly up often enough for my needs.
In any case, there's still a big difference between "I've never learned how to use this power well" and "This power is broken/useless/doesn't do what I want/makes me cry".
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
U know small tweaks is an opening. An opening I will take. After the sheer number of soft controls from testing electric control, I permanentlty shelved my grav troller.
My beta suggestions for DS.....give us stand and a couple IO sets (maybe a nice damage bonus set? Duh!) that work in phase shift. If u can cut the duration of the phase to 10 or 15 seconds and a way to decrease accuracy (so it deliberately misses MORE)...it could easily work as a soft control power. Would need a "mr obvious" graphic effects work over too, something more like the ghost widow hold.
I also totally agree with some ideas for wh. 1. Increase target aoe and fix the stun. 2. Switch that kb to kd. Even if u wh the spawn into a wall, the kb sends them all over the place.
So far, the proposed changes are a step in the right direction.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
They do not include the impact damage, since as far as I know nobody outside the dev team knows how much damage that'll be. This is why there's still some caveat about lift and propel's mediocrity, since we don't know yet how much bonus damage they'll get. My personal guess is that it would be either a flat bonus amount that'd be equal between the two, or a flat bonus *percentage* that would be equal between the two. Lift currently has better DPA than propel, so an equal bonus percentage (which I personally think more likely) would still leave it better.
Looking at that list, by 'good' I was mostly meaning DPA above 70, which might not *really* be good by some standards, but seems to me a nice dividing line between the more 'meh' attacks and the above average ones. A bonus of +50% impact damage on propel would give it a DPA of 69.2, and a bonus of +20% impact damage on lift would give it a DPA of 70.4, so those are the thresholds. If I had to guess, I'd think a full +50% damage might be unlikely, but something between that and 20% definitely could be done, so I wouldn't be surprised to see lift joining the ranks of 'good'-ish attacks. It'll take a lot to put propel there, though, and they're still not going to compete with the likes of blaze (of course, what would?). Problem is that the impact effect is supposed to be tied to the -KB, both thematically and gameplay wise. Thematically, both propel and lift do extra damage because they normally would be expending some of their oomph throwing the target off its feet, which they can't do when gravity distortion is nailing them to the floor. There was a quote in the chat summary thread which I thought summed this up nicely: And mechanically, it's supposed to compensate for the loss of the soft control provided by the knock effects when you have the target held. Neither one really applies to wormhole, since it doesn't do -KB. In fact, it knocks things back itself. It would be nice, I admit, but ultimately pretty minor - if they changed wormhole, I'd rather they make it better at *control*.  |
Yeah with Impact damage, these changes will make Gravity Controller a whole lot better in ST damage department (before Epic blasts I suppose).
I wish they could make two separate improvements. One for Controller (the current change) and a different one for Dominator. I really don't think Dom needs more damage from Gravity as dom already has Assault secondary.
I know it's the same Gravity set but different ATs have different needs. If they want to spend the time to balance the set, they should try to cater Dominator's needs too.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I rarely pvp in this game but what is so great about DS in pvp? You cage them and run away? Or you cage some and take out the loner?|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Dimension Shift will stay as it is for a reason, and the reason Arbiter Hawk gave is that it is great in PVP.
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Let's assume that DS is great in pvp, can they at least swap the position with Wormhole?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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There's also a big difference between "This power is broken/useless..." and "This power does not function on par with similar powers".|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
In any case, there's still a big difference between "I've never learned how to use this power well" and "This power is broken/useless/doesn't do what I want/makes me cry".
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First, let's begin with the reduced area. With a 15 foot radius, Wormhole can only cover and area of 706.5 square feet.; similar powers (Flash Fire and Stalagmites) have a 25 foot radius or an area of effect of 1962.5 square feet. That's well over two and a half times the area. As a result Wormhole is more difficult to target and less likely to pick up stragglers near the edges of a mob.
Next is the problematic activation time, a full 3 seconds, compared to Stalagmites and Flashfire at 2.1 and 2.37 seconds respectively. But that alone is not the problem. The actual stun does not occur until 2.7 seconds after you begin animating the power, allowing for a good deal of return fire unless you've broken LoS. Stalagmites and Flashfire do not have this delay.
Then we come to the knockback... which is unpredictable. If a teammate has tagged the mob with an immobilize (for most sets) they'll be protected from the knockback in Wormhole. That means some will simply plop out while others are still vulnerable to being flung a good distance. Or mobs like Nemesis, in which only a select few have knockback resistance.
These are problems that are not present in similar powers. Does that mean Wormhole is useless? No, in fact, it's a staple power of Gravity. However, it doesn't function nearly as well as its kin and that fact, along with poor power order, makes Gravity as a whole suffer in terms of control.
I sent a link to this thread (and the Dominator equivalent) to Synapse and he has passed it on to Arbiter Hawk. So keep up the discussion on ways to improve the control in Gravity Control!
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So once again the rest of the game is screwed over by PvP? Typical; and especially obnoxious given that they added PvP/PvE only effects supposedly to deal with just that sort of problem.
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Dimension Shift will stay as it is for a reason, and the reason Arbiter Hawk gave is that it is great in PVP.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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These are all legit concerns. I enjoyed my perma Gravity/Fire a lot but I mostly only enjoy her when I solo or on a small organized team. I would take charge and WH the group before the fight starts. This works out really well if the team knows about this strategy and are willing to wait. |
Originally Posted by ketch
There's also a big difference between "This power is broken/useless..." and "This power does not function on par with similar powers".
First, let's begin with the reduced area. With a 15 foot radius, Wormhole can only cover and area of 706.5 square feet.; similar powers (Flash Fire and Stalagmites) have a 25 foot radius or an area of effect of 1962.5 square feet. That's well over two and a half times the area. As a result Wormhole is more difficult to target and less likely to pick up stragglers near the edges of a mob. Next is the problematic activation time, a full 3 seconds, compared to Stalagmites and Flashfire at 2.1 and 2.37 seconds respectively. But that alone is not the problem. The actual stun does not occur until 2.7 seconds after you begin animating the power, allowing for a good deal of return fire unless you've broken LoS. Stalagmites and Flashfire do not have this delay. Then we come to the knockback... which is unpredictable. If a teammate has tagged the mob with an immobilize (for most sets) they'll be protected from the knockback in Wormhole. That means some will simply plop out while others are still vulnerable to being flung a good distance. Or mobs like Nemesis, in which only a select few have knockback resistance. These are problems that are not present in similar powers. Does that mean Wormhole is useless? No, in fact, it's a staple power of Gravity. However, it doesn't function nearly as well as its kin and that fact, along with poor power order, makes Gravity as a whole suffer in terms of control. |
Of course I've been yelled at several times before by Brutes/Tankers or Blasters who want the mobs to STAY WHERE THEY ARE. I port them and stun them but the team hates me for doing so. lol Because of this reason, I mostly only use WH to port a nearby group to the main group. Gravity's uses get a lot less "attractive" on a large team. Let's put it that way.
Now, if they want to preserve WH's "uniqueness", please increase the radius to 20'. Make this uniqueness even better and that should be the direction of Gravity buffs. The Impact buff is neat for Controllers because they don't have good attacks until Epic. The current buffs enhance Gravity Controller's uniqueness but they do almost NOTHING for Dominator's gameplay.
Well, I hate to repeat this but the dev to hate villains. :P Please look at Dominator's needs too.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I've been to siren calls a few times and I almost never see Gravity dom... with control powers being nerfed to the ground in pvp, who is going to use dominator/controller in pvp? 99% of the pvpers I see are Blaster/Stalker/Scrapper and at lvl 50, I see more Tankers.
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
So once again the rest of the game is screwed over by PvP? Typical; and especially obnoxious given that they added PvP/PvE only effects supposedly to deal with just that sort of problem.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Crushing Field should prevent knock back. That'd solve the wormhole problem. Another way is to make wormhole knock down w/ out a knock back enhancer placed in and knockback if an enhancement is used.
To avoid the initial aggro, it might work to have the power stun first. Unless that causes an issue with stunned mobs not getting caught in the aoe. The aoe could be increased a bit as well.
One thing to know though, is that with range added into WH, you can often times pull mobs from a good distance away, and even target them from around corners or places of cover. Negating the risk of a first volley.
The only issue I had was bosses not getting pulled with it. I didn't mind that they were stunned, or knocked about, but that they would show up as the Tank or other team mates were working on the pulled mob and the boss would begin to work me over.
If I was lucky, I'd keep near singy, and we'd work in tandem to get the boss held. But for those levels in between, it wasn't so nice.
Grav may not have early aoe control, which is nice. But Lift being able to knock up can act much like a short term hold, while grav distorting another mob is great for single target control. It's nice for early level play that doesn't focus so much on large groups of mobs. But that's not common when people start adding aoe teams early on.
This is what I think would fix gravity and it's just my 2 cents but on top of the current buffs being applied next issue do the following:
1. Make propel a cone attack power
2. Move crushing field up to level 6 to offer aoe immobilization sooner like other power sets
3. Change wormhole to knockdown instead of knock back and increase the radius and range to grab bigger mobs and help avoid aggro.
4. Turn one of the redundant ST attacks into a pbaoe repel using gravity to help with mitigation on wormhole aggro. Maybe make it a toggle that burns end for each foe repelled.
Edit: better yet since most pve players skip dimension shift make it pve a self phase and pvp an aoe phase if that's at all possible.
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
As others have mentioned in this thread I'd like to see the stun in wormhole applied earlier, and I'd also like to see the knock back changed to knock up, or even a "drop". I.E. you target the ground, but they get tp'd to a spot above the ground and land with a damage component along the lines of Lift.
This would change the "theme" of Wormhole's effect from the x-axis, to one along the y-axis.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I'm really not trying to be rude, but if you have to type stuff to use Wormhole the 'best way' when another controller can use flashfire/stalagmites/seeds of confusion/terrify/basically almost all AoE control powers at will without bothering the rest of the team, it means the power is severely lacking, especially since the set doesn't have another AoE control (for example, telekinesis can be bothersome in some situations, useful in a few, but mind control has a lot more to use instead).|
Originally Posted by Bloodspeaker
Before too many people start "QFT-ing" some serious fallacies:
Ony if the wormhole user is a moron. The targeting for this power does work. Communicating intent ("I'm WHing mobs around the fire brute, unless anyone has a better idea.") alerts even PuGs, as long as everyone can read (not always a winning assumption...). |
The other control set that has a less than ideal power for eating alphas (Ice Control, which I played to death) still doesn't need communication and won't get any hate even from inadequate usage from Ice Slick (because casting it when it won't do anything useful like on top of an immob, also will not harm the team).
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How? If you cast it after using WH, they are already knocked back; and if you cast it before using WH you'll eat the entire alpha and probably some successor attacks before you can use WH if that doesn't kill you.
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
Crushing Field should prevent knock back. That'd solve the wormhole problem.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Making the stun happen before teleporting will definitely help Gravity a lot. It helps reduce alpha damage when there is no corner to hide. Make it happen!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Please do fix Wormhole if ANYTHING fix wormhole. Gravity/Kin was my first toon and I haven't played him since 09...yeah that should tell ya something. I like these new changes but I think one of the most important change that needs to be made is swapping Dimension Shift with Wormhole. Also fix up Wormhole give it more range, give it an instant stun take away the kb and give it kd instead.
Why is there so much risk with Gravity when there's no payoff? Fire has plenty of risk but the payoff is dmg...with Gravity you just get sympathy.
Thanks again for looking at this control set guys. Please keep up the hard work!
What would make me happy with Wormhole, and apparently other people here:
- Increase the radius of effect.
- Make the Stun register earlier
- Make the Knock Back into Knock Down
- Move the power earlier than level 26
I believe Knockdown would make the power more versatile as it could still be used to reposition mobs, but also work with teams that steamrolling.
And power ordering, I know its problematic, but Tanks got their powers ordered a while back, so there is precedent.
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And Rend Armor? In TW was reordered. Please Devs we beggeth youz! I will burn offerings!
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Originally Posted by Tormentoso
What would make me happy with Wormhole, and apparently other people here:
I believe Knockdown would make the power more versatile as it could still be used to reposition mobs, but also work with teams that steamrolling. And power ordering, I know its problematic, but Tanks got their powers ordered a while back, so there is precedent. |
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Well, TW was still in beta/pre-live when it was changed (except for the dozen people who were able to get it early when it was accidentally put on the market awhile back). The Devs have shown that they're extremely reluctant to make changes that impact people's Live characters.|
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
And Rend Armor? In TW was reordered. Please Devs we beggeth youz! I will burn offerings!
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That said it HAS happened... just not in a long time.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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I know it was pre-beta Oath, Gosh you ruin everything haha. I was trying to trick them into guilt! *Dismantles large cardboard box that is being held up by a stick with freshly cooked bacon and guilt under it*|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
Well, TW was still in beta/pre-live when it was changed (except for the dozen people who were able to get it early when it was accidentally put on the market awhile back). The Devs have shown that they're extremely reluctant to make changes that impact people's Live characters.
That said it HAS happened... just not in a long time. |
I'm glad that they are making these changes because for a second there even I was wondering were they ever going to bother with the Control Sets.
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I know it was pre-beta Oath, Gosh you ruin everything haha. I was trying to trick them into guilt! *Dismantles large cardboard box that is being held up by a stick with freshly cooked bacon and guilt under it*
I'm glad that they are making these changes because for a second there even I was wondering were they ever going to bother with the Control Sets. |
I was going to post something witty, with a picture as a response... but I got distracted by Business Cat.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
Propel changes and fixing Lift's damage mod make me happy. Missing the rest of the problems with the set makes me sad. And now at least we know WHY these terrible, terrible phase shifting powers are still in the game. "Intangibility rock socks in PvP. Intangibility stay."
I'm glad the Dev's are looking at Grav, but this is still only a start for Controller's, and almost nothing for Dominator's.
Am I the only one who thinks propel needs to be a cone?
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
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That is a compelling argument...:P|
Originally Posted by Oathbound
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I was going to post something witty, with a picture as a response... but I got distracted by Business Cat. |
I agree Propel should be a cone...hopefully the devs give the Set more love down the road.
So once. Every four minutes (at base). Using your "most powerful" control tool as a band-aid fix for your "Every Spawn" control power.
That's ridiculous.